New Mage Talent Trees Revealed

[MongoJerry]

It has been hard enough to not spec for arcane power.  Now they are going to dangle master elementalist out there and only loons like me will be speccing in anything but arcane power or master elementalist crit machine. :(
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Wierd that you should say that, because most of the mages in my guild basically consider putting any more than three points into the arcane tree as useless now that evocation and improved arcane explosion are no longer needed. They'll miss POM, but the extra utility in the other trees are worth it to them. The review really seems to have openned the way for elementalist builds.

[Skandranon]

The review really seems to have openned the way for elementalist builds.
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Yes, but it mainly did so through gutting the Arcane tree. Instant AE and Evo were basically the only good things in the tree, and now they're gone...not much left to get.

[Warlock]

And the Warriors are stabbed in the back yet again.
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I assume you're talking about Tactical Mastery remaining a talent.

Getting TM for free would free up 5-10 talent points. Well equipped Warriors are already a very strong class (unarguably the best tanks in the game, extremely high PVE dps, great in PVP); would you be willing to give up anything to get free TM?

[Bob the Beholder]

Yes, but it mainly did so through gutting the Arcane tree.  Instant AE and Evo were basically the only good things in the tree, and now they're gone...not much left to get.
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This is about how I'm thinking of it. Half the tree provides little benefit, and is just points being burned to get to the good stuff.

[lemekim]

I assume you're talking about Tactical Mastery remaining a talent.

Getting TM for free would free up 5-10 talent points. Well equipped Warriors are already a very strong class (unarguably the best tanks in the game, extremely high PVE dps, great in PVP); would you be willing to give up anything to get free TM?
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You are missing the point. Mages got natural instant Arcane Explosion (and Evocation) because people pretty much HAD to spec that far down Arcane tree so that they could actually AOE well, and have means of replenishing mana during long fights.

Similarly, warriors feel that they must get Tactical Mastery so that they can perform most of the usual tasks well - tanking, PvPing, PvEing, etc.

Suggestions were floating around that warriors could be made to naturally retain 10 rage, and the new TM will increase that number to 25 with 3-5 talent points. The builds that previously took TM probably still would take it... The only thing that does is make Fury/Protection build viable, much like Elementalist build is now quite viable for mages. And I think you would agree that putting points into Protection doesn't exactly boost your DPS. It's just an alternative build for people who want to tank better, without completely gimping their damage.

[Warlock]

You are missing the point. Mages got natural instant Arcane Explosion (and Evocation) because people pretty much HAD to spec that far down Arcane tree so that they could actually AOE well, and have means of replenishing mana during long fights.

Similarly, warriors feel that they must get Tactical Mastery so that they can perform most of the usual tasks well - tanking, PvPing, PvEing, etc.

Suggestions were floating around that warriors could be made to naturally retain 10 rage, and the new TM will increase that number to 25 with 3-5 talent points. The builds that previously took TM probably still would take it... The only thing that does is make Fury/Protection build viable, much like Elementalist build is now quite viable for mages. And I think you would agree that putting points into Protection doesn't exactly boost your DPS. It's just an alternative build for people who want to tank better, without completely gimping their damage.
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Both other trees have rage talents - ten free rage in Fury and a cheaper Bloodrage in Protection. TM is a nice talent, but I wouldn't call it essential - I know warriors that were very successful without it. I knew Mages without IAE too, but that was far more restrictive to them than a lack of TM is for Warriors and the Mage class needed a buff far more than Warriors do.

[Ruvanal]

You are missing the point. Mages got natural instant Arcane Explosion (and Evocation) because people pretty much HAD to spec that far down Arcane tree so that they could actually AOE well, and have means of replenishing mana during long fights.
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Precisely. When nearly every mage build has had the specs set up to include those 2 talent to make the class even decently playable at all, that point needed to be adressed.

The sad part is that for part of beta the developers had Arcane Explosion functioning as an instant cast spell, then changed it to its current form when they added mage talents. That just caused a bit of an uproar then because most saw it as what was; forcing the mages to spend a fixed amount of talent points to give them an essential tool for dealing with many of the encounters in the game.

Evocation was not seen as that important at the time of the introduction of the talents due to having spirit function to full effect (along with eating and drinking in combat) even when in combat and the fact that the level cap was something like 39 at the time. Well before most players were starting to see the longer raid fights that would require some sort of major mana recovery to get through the fight. But after the introduction of such raid encounters, Evocation ended up being seen as a required skill to make it in any type of larger raid run.

[lemekim]

Both other trees have rage talents - ten free rage in Fury and a cheaper Bloodrage in Protection. TM is a nice talent, but I wouldn't call it essential - I know warriors that were very successful without it. I knew Mages without IAE too, but that was far more restrictive to them than a lack of TM is for Warriors and the Mage class needed a buff far more than Warriors do.
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Improved Berserker rage is not a viable alternative at all - you have to be in the Berserker stance to use it in the first place! And if you require rage in another stance, such as to use Mocking Blow in Battle Stance, when you switch stances you will end up with no rage again.

Blood Rage generates only 10 rage instantly (and takes 10 more second to generate 10 more rage), but Improved version of it only lowers the health cost - which is really not that big in the first place. The problem is the fairly long cooldown - 1 minute - and the fact that it puts you in combat for the duration.

This is similar to me saying that Mages don't have to get Instant Arcane Explosion - they can simply get Blastwave in the Fire Tree and that it's a viable alternative! We both know it's not.

Thing is, those warriors that you might know that don't have TM, really do not do much anything else outside of tanking in raids (did I guess right? I probably did). I personally do not know of any warriors that don't have TM. Outside of tanking, when Soloing, DPSing in raids, Tanking casual instances or PvPing, a warrior might change stances 5 times a minute, if not more. So the only situation where a warrior would not miss having TM would be while tanking in a raid, and even then he might need it for an Intercept or a Mocking Blow.

It's much harder to quantify TM to someone who hasn't played a warrior - the benefits of an instant AE are far more visual and obvious to an outside observer. In that situation, a better comparison would be Evocation - warriors generally don't watch mages mana, so they don't really understand just how vital Evocation is to a mage in long fights. Yet, one cannot deny that just because you don't see the apparent effect of it, does not mean that it is not very needed.

You have to remember that the warriors who will benefit the most from this change are warriors who are spending a significant amount of points into Protection tree, which is arguably one of the most gimptastic trees of any class. This will not benefit the warrior specs that you feel are overpowered (Arms/Fury, Fury/Arms), it will benefit the Protection tree above all, and promote more variety.

[Warlock]

I agree that IAE was an essential Mage talent - stand-and-cast like Warlocks do isn't something Mages can do safely (if you count Hellfire as safe!)

If you need rage for Intercept, you're in Beserker and can use Beserker rage (though it is an extra button to hit and an extra global cooldown). If you need it for Mocking blow, you've presumably already blown rage-free Taunt or you'd be in Defensive Stance.

I agree that it's a great talent - just not quite as important to Warriors as IAE was to Mages. In PVE anyhow, where fights are predictable so the Warrior can be in the right stance and building rage before needing a skill use.

[Drasca]

I agree that IAE was an essential Mage talent - stand-and-cast like Warlocks do isn't something Mages can do safely (if you count Hellfire as safe!)
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Suicidal 212 dps to self while easily interrupted, doesn't actually start until the 2nd graphical ring 1-2 seconds later, and while resistable by enemies isn't resistable by the lock? Bwahahahahahahaha. :w00t: Mind you, warlock aoe dps cannot be signifigantly improved either.

Too bad curse of tongues doesn't work to slow talent improved IAE down anymore.

While IAE is 'essential' to mages, it didn't seem to greatly restrict their talent trees and playstyles. Giving Druids talentless innervate, I can understand. That freed druids to spec as they will rather than be locked to one tree.

I would've been more impressed if they fixed blink and AM. Boy my mage pals hated when those failed or bugged out badly.

[Warlock]

Suicidal 212 dps to self while easily interrupted, doesn't actually start until the 2nd graphical ring 1-2 seconds later, and while resistable by enemies isn't resistable by the lock? Bwahahahahahahaha.  :w00t: Mind you, warlock aoe dps cannot be signifigantly improved either.

Too bad curse of tongues doesn't work to slow talent improved IAE down anymore.

While IAE is 'essential' to mages, it didn't seem to greatly restrict their talent trees and playstyles. Giving Druids talentless innervate, I can understand. That freed druids to spec as they will rather than be locked to one tree.

I would've been more impressed if they fixed blink and AM. Boy my mage pals hated when those failed or bugged out badly.
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Well, with 2-3 VW shields, a healthstone and high HP it's safer than it would be for Mages!

Didn't realise AM and Blink are still unreliable. The AM bug in particular is why my mages never got very far.

[lemekim]

I agree that IAE was an essential Mage talent - stand-and-cast like Warlocks do isn't something Mages can do safely (if you count Hellfire as safe!)

If you need rage for Intercept, you're in Beserker and can use Beserker rage (though it is an extra button to hit and an extra global cooldown). If you need it for Mocking blow, you've presumably already blown rage-free Taunt or you'd be in Defensive Stance.

I agree that it's a great talent - just not quite as important to Warriors as IAE was to Mages. In PVE anyhow, where fights are predictable so the Warrior can be in the right stance and building rage before needing a skill use.

One of the most common situations where you would use intercept while tanking would be if your taunt got resisted and you have to chase the mob down. So assuming that you just used up your berserker rage and, considering that your taunt just got resisted and is on cooldown, you need either 1) Mocking Blow, which is in Battle Stance and requires rage that you do not have, 2) Challenging Shout, which again requires rage that you do not have. Ooops.

Even while tanking, you sometimes might want to switch to Battlestance for Thunderclap or Berserker stance for Whirlwind. And this is just one aspect of the warrior play, that requires the least stance-switching, and even there the absence of it is felt. What about the other warriors? You will often have 1 warrior tanking, while the rest of the warriors are left to DPS. Once again they are back to stance-switching.

As I said before, just because you cannot see the benefits of the skill does not mean it's not important. And observing the tanks in a 40-man raid situation, who probably need the least stance-switching, is not exactly a good source of information. Why don't you go PvP with a good warrior and just watch how many times they switch between stances. It's not a "great" talent, it's an essential talent. You keep talking like you have actually played a warrior with and without TM when you clearly have not.

And in case you are wondering, this is not a new complaint - it's actually probably over a year old now.

[Bob the Beholder]

Looks like they've tweaked it a little bit since the IGN info. In the fire tree, Improved Flamestrike and Pyroblast have switched places. Pyroblast now has no prerequisite, and is required for Blastwave. It also appears that Pyroblast no longer has a cooldown.

I'd be all right with this, if there were some way to drop the cast time without PoM, like a warlock's Soul Fire. As it is, it's another reason for me to drop Blast Wave and go for an Ice Barrier build. I honestly can't think of many reasons I'd want to take six full seconds to cast a spell that really doesn't do much more damage than Fireball, (not counting the DoT, which matters little in PvP). If they'd change Improved Fireball to lower the casting time like they did with Bane for warlocks then I'd get it in a second, though.

[Drasca]

Well, with 2-3 VW shields, a healthstone and high HP it's safer than it would be for Mages!
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Mages can have high HP with equipment choice. Addiitionally, locks are not guaranteed the dispellable VW sac or healthstone, and especially not in pvp. Out of Shards, anyone? Personally, I rather liked a demon mastery / soul link spec with the imp out. 15% more damage as the imp approached death taking my damage and was sacrificed.

You should know better. Standing still = Death. Hellfire just gives double death via outright suicide, though admittedly voluntary suicide has its moments. It doesn't cause an equipment penalty... anymore and allows locks to bypass certain doors in World PvE situations.

It also appears that Pyroblast no longer has a cooldown.

I'd be all right with this, if there were some way to drop the cast time without PoM, like a warlock's Soul Fire

Really? Eww. I'm glad PoM is a talent. Soulfire is really unimpressive even with the half second off due to its shard requirement (and no way to make it instant). Plus, you get FREE shadowburn equivalent, fireblast, has better cooldown (8s vs 15s) and doesn't require a shard.

[Bob the Beholder]

Really? Eww. I'm glad PoM is a talent. Soulfire is really unimpressive even with the half second off due to its shard requirement (and no way to make it instant). Plus, you get FREE shadowburn equivalent, fireblast, has better cooldown (8s vs 15s) and doesn't require a shard.
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Half second off? Two seconds off. Soulfire + Bane = 4 second cast spell.