Terenas -- Molten Core?

[Alram]

edited out--sorry about the double post.

[swirly]

Thanks Swirly.  What does "AQ20 book queue for class epics" mean?
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Being that I didn't say the quoted line, I can only give my best guess toward its meaning. I would assume that there is a SK style queue used for the various class books that drop in AQ. So then my guess would be that Xame is saying that that list could be used for class epics as well since they are similiar to the books.

[Mavfin]

Love the idea, however as it's been pointed out i cant make that time, i dont finish work here until 12pm, which at present is 9pm server time, best i can do is say i'll be on and if needed can step in, though i'm not sure if anyone would be stepping out of a MC run but you never know.

Mistique.

You'd be surprised. For way geared out veterans, MC is a 3-3.5 hour clear. Beginners, you're talking running as far as you can in the time people are willing to spend, so people will have to step out and stuff.

We pulled in 3 people in BWL last night, just before Chromaggus, 3.5 hours into the raid, people had to go get some sleep. So, yeah, it will probably happen.

[vor_lord]

So, yeah, it will probably happen.
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QFT. I can say it will DEFINITELY happen. Never been on a Keepers 20 man run where at least a couple people didn't swap out.

It does mean that once some bosses are on farm that you might tend to be there for the dying rather than the killing... ;)

[VoiceMan]

I suppose it's possible we might be able to make this happen on Saturdays, instead of Fridays, but I think Friday was the night of choice because that was the night most of the Lurkers could attend, and Morde was hoping to fill a good chunk of raid slots with people he already knows are quality players. In some ways, trading ZG on Saturdays for MC makes alot of sense, but they have more trouble filling raids on Saturdays. If they struggle fielding a 20 man rain on Saturdays, I wouldn't think trying to fill a 40 man raid on the same day will work either. I suppose if most of the Lurkers could commit to a Saturday versus a Friday, it might make it easier to move it to Saturdays. I just know many Lurkers can really only commit to Fridays.

[Mavfin]

I suppose it's possible we might be able to make this happen on Saturdays, instead of Fridays, but I think Friday was the night of choice because that was the night most of the Lurkers could attend, and Morde was hoping to fill a good chunk of raid slots with people he already knows are quality players.  In some ways, trading ZG on Saturdays for MC makes alot of sense, but they have more trouble filling raids on Saturdays.  If they struggle fielding a 20 man rain on Saturdays, I wouldn't think trying to fill a 40 man raid on the same day will work either.  I suppose if most of the Lurkers could commit to a Saturday versus a Friday, it might make it easier to move it to Saturdays.  I just know many Lurkers can really only commit to Fridays.
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Friday's good for me. Saturday is not. That's an SR raid night. However, if that works better for the Terenas regulars and the Keepers, don't worry about me.

[vor_lord]

Where is everyone at with their Ony key?

I know Wimpy, Xarhud, and Keshoga all need to do Warlord's Command in LBRS. Perhaps that might be an option for tonight for example.

I need to kill one more dragon (did the first three) and then do Drakk.

[Kevin]

Where is everyone at with their Ony key? 

I know Wimpy, Xarhud, and Keshoga all need to do Warlord's Command in LBRS.  Perhaps that might be an option for tonight for example.

I need to kill one more dragon (did the first three) and then do Drakk.
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Unless Treesh did it while I was away, Mogo and Marn still need to kill the Dragon in Tanaris, do the running around after that (I think there is more running around after that) then do the 4th dragon that you get asked to kill after that, then run around some more as I understand it, then kill Drakk for the blood.

[khgerg]

Where is everyone at with their Ony key? 

Octord has killed only one dragon. The one in SOS.

[Xame]

Unless Treesh did it while I was away, Mogo and Marn still need to kill the Dragon in Tanaris, do the running around after that (I think there is more running around after that) then do the 4th dragon that you get asked to kill after that, then run around some more as I understand it, then kill Drakk for the blood.
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I'm up for some dragon killing + LBRS for tonight. I'm Ony key'ed so I'm up for anything.

It's 3 dragons, talking to the hero of the horde, 1 more dragon, more talking and then killing drak for blood. It's not too bad if you go with the Mage Travel Agency. I've heard that there is a limited supply of drak blood so we might end up in UBRS a few times to complete. But I don't think this is pressing onces the world dragons are down (travel is really the only pain here).

Alram, sorry for the short hand. As swirly said, SK= "Suicide Kings" and the link should lead to a flash slide show that is good. KotD runs three SK queues: Epic, Blue and AQ20 class books. The flash only shows SK used in a 2 queue system which is how the guild that invented the system uses it. As with all loot systems, they get modified by use and needs. Since KotD was planning ZG with pug'ed in regulars the twists on the system was designed to reflect those needs. Thus they started with two queues, Epic and Blue (the flash shows Epic and Class). When they started to go into AQ20, they needed a class queue so they have added the AQ20 Book queue (which really is a class queue like the original guild's system). Thus I was suggesting that they stick with their current queue system for MC with AQ20 Book = Class queue. I really don't want them inventing yet more queues because of confusion and loot debates. I realize that MC gear is better then ZG/AQ gear, but at our level of gearing it will keep all of the queues moving while we learn MC. I believe that SK will work fairly in multiple instances of different levels, very similar to DKP (but without having to cost out all of the items in relationship to each other).

The only downsides of SK (or upsides) is that it does not reward "showing up on time" or "staying to the end". Note, it also doesn't punish for not showing up to raids. The system is neutral and only rewards kills. Thus it is rather pug friendly and casual raiding friendly.

[VoiceMan]

Fazuul is Ony keyed...but is happy to help kill other dragons tonight if need be.

[MongoJerry]

Grats, guys, on starting up an... I would say alliance, but that wouldn't be appropriate... a 40-man group to raid with. Regarding cores and ore and stuff, the simpler and less bureaucratic the better. Identify who tend to be the tanks in the raid. Hopefully there will be people from both guilds who will be tanking. In that case, try to equip people from both guilds using the materials. Definitely do not random the ore and cores off to the general raid, because that just leads to much of it ending up on the auction house, which slows down the progress of your raid. If need be, you can set up banks for each of the guilds and split the cores and ore at the end of the run between the two guild banks in proportion to the guild participation in the raid.

Have only trusted officers loot, skin, or mine during the raid. I don't care how much you think you trust your raidmates, when there are 40 people in the party, it's easy to lose track of where things go, and items end up slipping through the cracks. Our guild was and is a tight group, and a long time ago we used to have a policy of letting anyone mine the dark iron ore in MC as long as they sent it to the guild bank afterward. After months of doing this, it was estimated that the "slippage" was on the order of hundreds of bars of dark iron ore and possibly more than a thousand bars. Even now, when we have an even tighter "leaner meaner" guild, whenever we have a ZG run where people are allowed to pick up coins and bijous "as long as they send them to the bank afterward," the number of coins and bijous that end up in the bank is about half what go in when we have a dedicated looter picking up all the coins and bijous. People may not be doing it intentionally maliciously. It may be one of those cases where they say, "Oh, it's only one bijou. It's no big deal. I'll just take the rep." kind of thing. But when you have 20-40 people saying the same thing, all those lost materials add up.

Remember that the items you make using the cores, skin, and ore are there to help everyone in the raid progress further into MC, so if a few people seem to be getting a ton of epic crafted items, don't complain, because having your tanks geared up helps everyone. Much of the crafted items aren't useful outside of MC/BWL/Onyxia anyway.

[Mavfin]

Grats, guys, on starting up an...  I would say alliance, but that wouldn't be appropriate... a 40-man group to raid with.  Regarding cores and ore and stuff, the simpler and less bureaucratic the better.  Identify who tend to be the tanks in the raid.  Hopefully there will be people from both guilds who will be tanking.  In that case, try to equip people from both guilds using the materials.  Definitely do not random the ore and cores off to the general raid, because that just leads to much of it ending up on the auction house, which slows down the progress of your raid.  If need be, you can set up banks for each of the guilds and split the cores and ore at the end of the run between the two guild banks in proportion to the guild participation in the raid.

Have only trusted officers loot, skin, or mine during the raid.  I don't care how much you think you trust your raidmates, when there are 40 people in the party, it's easy to lose track of where things go, and items end up slipping through the cracks.  Our guild was and is a tight group, and a long time ago we used to have a policy of letting anyone mine the dark iron ore in MC as long as they sent it to the guild bank afterward.  After months of doing this, it was estimated that the "slippage" was on the order of hundreds of bars of dark iron ore and possibly more than a thousand bars.  Even now, when we have an even tighter "leaner meaner" guild, whenever we have a ZG run where people are allowed to pick up coins and bijous "as long as they send them to the bank afterward," the number of coins and bijous that end up in the bank is about half what go in when we have a dedicated looter picking up all the coins and bijous.  People may not be doing it intentionally maliciously.  It may be one of those cases where they say, "Oh, it's only one bijou.  It's no big deal.  I'll just take the rep." kind of thing.  But when you have 20-40 people saying the same thing, all those lost materials add up.

Remember that the items you make using the cores, skin, and ore are there to help everyone in the raid progress further into MC, so if a few people seem to be getting a ton of epic crafted items, don't complain, because having your tanks geared up helps everyone.  Much of the crafted items aren't useful outside of MC/BWL/Onyxia anyway.
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Well, you have to get your tanks decently geared/FR'ed first. You can do Geddon w/o much FR...except the tank.

[MongoJerry]

Well, you have to get your tanks decently geared/FR'ed first.  You can do Geddon w/o much FR...except the tank.
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Your statement is true. I don't know what it has to do with my comments, though, or how it is different from them. My comments related to *how* one goes about equipping one's tanks. Randoming materials off to the raid afterward, as was suggested earlier, is one of the least effective ways to do it. Having trusted officers loot, skin, and mine and having those materials collected into guild bank(s) is. Since this raid involves two guilds, some matter of splitting the materials between the two guild banks might be necessary. Hopefully, this means that tanks from both guilds get geared up.

[vor_lord]

Your statement is true.  I don't know what it has to do with my comments, though, or how it is different from them.  My comments related to *how* one goes about equipping one's tanks.  Randoming materials off to the raid afterward, as was suggested earlier, is one of the least effective ways to do it.  Having trusted officers loot, skin, and mine and having those materials collected into guild bank(s) is.  Since this raid involves two guilds, some matter of splitting the materials between the two guild banks might be necessary.  Hopefully, this means that tanks from both guilds get geared up.
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This raid involves much more than two guilds which is the issue at stake. Keepers + Lurkers will likely make up half of the raid, with the remainders being from other guilds and groups in smaller numbers than either of those two. It's kind of tricky as we are dependent on filling slots. The regular ZG/AQ20 runs they have been doing have compiled up a pretty large list of people who have proven they aren't complete idiots but that is basically where we are at.

The runs will be master loot with dedicated miner and skinner (are there herbs as well? they use a dedicated herbalist as well in ZG).

I wonder if you could get away with simply reserving cores and core leather for whomever the raid leader wants...

In a two guild alliance things actually become quite a bit easier to handle but we don't have that luxury.

[Treesh]

The runs will be master loot with dedicated miner and skinner (are there herbs as well?  they use a dedicated herbalist as well in ZG).
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No herbs to worry about in MC, BWL and Ony.

[Mavfin]

Your statement is true.  I don't know what it has to do with my comments, though, or how it is different from them.  My comments related to *how* one goes about equipping one's tanks.  Randoming materials off to the raid afterward, as was suggested earlier, is one of the least effective ways to do it.  Having trusted officers loot, skin, and mine and having those materials collected into guild bank(s) is.  Since this raid involves two guilds, some matter of splitting the materials between the two guild banks might be necessary.  Hopefully, this means that tanks from both guilds get geared up.
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I was agreeing with you, actually, but phrased it badly.

[Mavfin]

This raid involves much more than two guilds which is the issue at stake.  Keepers + Lurkers will likely make up half of the raid, with the remainders being from other guilds and groups in smaller numbers than either of those two.  It's kind of tricky as we are dependent on filling slots.  The regular ZG/AQ20 runs they have been doing have compiled up a pretty large list of people who have proven they aren't complete idiots but that is basically where we are at.

The runs will be master loot with dedicated miner and skinner (are there herbs as well?  they use a dedicated herbalist as well in ZG).

I wonder if you could get away with simply reserving cores and core leather for whomever the raid leader wants...

In a two guild alliance things actually become quite a bit easier to handle but we don't have that luxury.
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AFAIK, Master Loot is a bad idea in MC, for reasons I don't know. What every group I've ever run MC with does is run loot on Free for All, and the rule is *DO NOT TOUCH* under any circumstances unless you're a designated trash looter or the raid leader. Same with mining and skinning. If you're not designated, you don't do it. Being seen to pick up any loot at all w/o direction from the raid leader is grounds for being kicked from the raid.

[Mirajj]

AFAIK, Master Loot is a bad idea in MC, for reasons I don't know.  What every group I've ever run MC with does is run loot on Free for All, and the rule is *DO NOT TOUCH* under any circumstances unless you're a designated trash looter or the raid leader.  Same with mining and skinning.  If you're not designated, you don't do it.  Being seen to pick up any loot at all w/o direction from the raid leader is grounds for being kicked from the raid.
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It used to be a bad idea because ML was very, very buggy. I've heard tales of it giving everything to the ML, not giving it to the assigned person, assigning it to someone, who then can't pick it up...et al.

So folks got used to running on FFA with a "Don't Touch" rule. I'm told that they've "fixed" the MasterLooter bugs, but by now everyone's used to the "Don't Touch" rule.

[Treesh]

It used to be a bad idea because ML was very, very buggy. I've heard tales of it giving everything to the ML, not giving it to the assigned person, assigning it to someone, who then can't pick it up...et al.

So folks got used to running on FFA with a "Don't Touch" rule. I'm told that they've "fixed" the MasterLooter bugs, but by now everyone's used to the "Don't Touch" rule.
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We haven't had any issue with Master Looter in ZG so there's a good chance it's actually fixed in MC as well. We'll just see. :) With having to fill-in spots each run with various people from various guilds, I do not trust everyone to remember to not loot and it would be a pain to remind folks each and every time. ML will be the best choice for our runs unless it bugs out. :P

This isn't an alliance like Avarice on Stormrage. It's a different type of critter by necessity.