ps3 worries.

[Chesspiece_face]

For those that may have missed it, there is a pretty strong groundswell of grumbling in the industry regarding new information released on the PS3 and what it could mean for Sony in general (IGN has a couple decent articles that sum it up which i've linked below..)

Add to that the "real" reason that PS3 will not have rumble technology in the controllers (ummm: legal battle regarding their stealing the rumble technology. My interpretation of a Sony design meeting: "well we can't use the rumble tech that we stole anymore what do we do now?", "hmmmm. hear me out guys... i know we can't steal technology anymore so why don't we just steal ideas? nintendo seems to have something going on." "BRILLIANT!")

IGN artilce 1

IGN article 2

[DeeBye]

I don't see why people are getting so worked up about potential shortcomings of the PS3. It looks to be a very impressive system. It'll certainly be more impressive than the XBox 360, which is doing very well.

I guess I just don't understand the console market. The last console I bought was in the PS1/N64 era. Back in those days, people chose consoles based on the games. Now people seem to be choosing consoles based on the power of the hardware. I think this is kind of silly.

I'm gonna stick to PC gaming until the whole console market produces something that appeals to me.

Add to that the "real" reason that PS3 will not have rumble technology in the controllers

I'm aware of the Immersion lawsuit over the rumble patent, but why were only Sony and Microsoft targeted? The Nintendo 64 had the Rumble Pak, and there are piles of PC gaming accesories that use vibration feedback.

[Nystul]

My first thought was "Maybe now the console industry will implode, and Electronics Boutique will actually sell some PC games again." It is so lame to live within walking distance of an EBGames, and have absolutely no reason to go there.

On further reflection, are you suggesting that Sony would be involved in shady industry tactics? It's inconceivable! The next thing ya know, people will be starting vicious rumors like this about Microsoft too.

[Hammerskjold]

> Now people seem to be choosing consoles based on the power of the hardware. I think this is kind of silly.


My view is that kind of thing was present even back in the 8 bit Nintendo vs Sega days. Though I agree with you once the hype is ignored, the thing that really moves units are the games. Does anyone really care how much polygons and pixels can be pushed if the system doesn't have any games people want to play?

Another thing I see is the line between console and PC is getting blurred, for better and for worse. Unless PS3 has some exclusive games that I can't get anywhere else, I can see myself just buying a shuttle PC for that price. Or even an older laptop.

But really, I'm just avoiding the real issue. Which is, when will this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_(Wii) finally happen for real?! (and I'm saying this as a Sega fan at heart.)

[Mithrandir]

I'm aware of the Immersion lawsuit over the rumble patent, but why were only Sony and Microsoft targeted? The Nintendo 64 had the Rumble Pak, and there are piles of PC gaming accesories that use vibration feedback.

Linky!

Interesting quote:

“We have officially stated we have not performed full analysis on Nintendo’s product so are not in a position to comment on the technology they are using,” Viegas said, adding “we’ll take a look at those.”

Seems like legal mumbo jumbo to me. You could target Microsoft, Sony, and Electrosource... but were too busy and/or forgot to check if Nintendo violated your patent too?:blink:Maybe they're just Mario fans.

Seems like Sony is just being stubborn though. Immersion saying that if Sony drops the appeal and pays them their money they will that they will then work with them to get rumble technology into the PS3 controllers so that the developers and fans won't be angry anymore seems completely reasonable to me. /shrug

[DeeBye]

Maybe they're just Mario fans.

Haha, I like this explanation :)

I kind of think that vibration feedback is a bit overrated anyways. I don't blame Sony for washing their hands of the whole thing. Sure, it was kind of cool to feel physical feedback through the controller at first, but it gets old really fast. My hands were numb for days after doing one of the endurance races in Gran Turismo 1.

[Rinnhart]

I don't see why people are getting so worked up about potential shortcomings of the PS3. It looks to be a very impressive system. It'll certainly be more impressive than the XBox 360, which is doing very well.

I guess I just don't understand the console market. The last console I bought was in the PS1/N64 era. Back in those days, people chose consoles based on the games. Now people seem to be choosing consoles based on the power of the hardware. I think this is kind of silly.

I'm gonna stick to PC gaming until the whole console market produces something that appeals to me.
I'm aware of the Immersion lawsuit over the rumble patent, but why were only Sony and Microsoft targeted? The Nintendo 64 had the Rumble Pak, and there are piles of PC gaming accesories that use vibration feedback.

Personally, I still buy my console for the games. But, if the games I want are on multiple consoles, having top of the line hardware is a plus.

I'll probably buy a 360 when the new Halo comes out; but until then, the Wii has my attention thanks to pure originality.

[Munkay]

But really, I'm just avoiding the real issue. Which is, when will this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_(Wii) finally happen for real?! (and I'm saying this as a Sega fan at heart.)

It will be interesting to see what they do with an overhaul of the game. Will the style/plot/feel of the game change? Or will it merely be a change to the Wii controler (swordslashing with the controller, etc)?

Thanks Hammerskjold, now I'm anticipating this title as well:)

Cheers,

Munk

[oldmandennis]

Back in those days, people chose consoles based on the games. Now people seem to be choosing consoles based on the power of the hardware.

That's the thing - who can tell which console will have the best exclusive games a year from now? No way to know for sure, so you may as well pick based on which has the price/performance you think is best. Most good games will be out on multiple platforms, you may as well pick which will make the game look the best/play the smoothest.

That said, I think the price of the PS3 is too high. If M$ can drop the price on theirs by 100$ -or- add HD-DVD and digital output support without raising the price much by the time the PS3 launches, they might win this round before it begins.

[Munkay]

That's the thing - who can tell which console will have the best exclusive games a year from now? No way to know for sure, so you may as well pick based on which has the price/performance you think is best.

That's an important question, especially for me since I got burned pretty bad with the Gamecube. It's easy to look back and laugh at it now, but at the time it seemed like a console with a good lineup of games coming down the road.

Soon after purchasing a GC new games were either terrible or no longer in development. Granted, there are some great titles for GC which I still enjoy playing from time to time, but these became few and far between. It's a slightly different story with PS3 and XBox360, since their lineup continues to be strong.

But I can't help having a nagging feeling about these new games. How much longer will companies spend the millions to develop these games? Will it hold out forever, or will the heavy weight of producing these new high end games start sinking development ships?

I know the higher pricetags of XBox360's has shown one possible way to stay afloat, but there's a breaking limit on pricetag as well.

Cheers,

Munk

[Rinnhart]

But I can't help having a nagging feeling about these new games. How much longer will companies spend the millions to develop these games? Will it hold out forever, or will the heavy weight of producing these new high end games start sinking development ships?

Hollywood movies only continue to grow in price; is anyone slowing down, there? So long as there's a profit to be made, games will be a part of our entertainment culture.

[Occhidiangela]

Haha, I like this explanation :)

I kind of think that vibration feedback is a bit overrated anyways. I don't blame Sony for washing their hands of the whole thing. Sure, it was kind of cool to feel physical feedback through the controller at first, but it gets old really fast. My hands were numb for days after doing one of the endurance races in Gran Turismo 1.

Vibration feedback has been used for over two decades in a variety of high fidelity aircraft cockpit simulators by the military, and others. Getting that effect scaled to PC and console suites may be non trivial, but including it in a game can be very effective in asssisting immersion. THe key is to get it into the seat, not the hand controller.

Occhi

[Chesspiece_face]

A couple points, not responding to anyone in particular.

1. Regarding people purchasing systems for the games; I suppose you could make a case that this has remained true for nintendo systems being that nintendo is the only company that makes a true gaming system. Sony and Microsoft, however, make hybrid systems. starting with the PS2 one of the main draws of that system was that it could also play DVDs. a large portion of the support base of the PS2 purchased the system not necisarily based on the merits of the games or just based on the fact that it could play dvds but because they got both in one. Both Sony and Microsoft have built their business plan around this idea that people will lean more towards their products as long as they have greater functionality.

2. This is where the problem arises for Sony. When the PS2 came out dvds were already a couple years into their cycle. The progressive early adopters had already purchased dvd players. The base that the PS2 was appealing to were the people that weren't willing to spend the money to get a dvd player but when they could get it and the gaming system they were willing to buy in.

Sony is trying to cash in on the same concept with the PS3. The devil is in the details however. When PS3 releases they are not going to be appealing to people on the fence over the new technology (blu-ray) they are going to be appealing to early adopters that not only are willing to throw down 600 on a HD media player they probably would do that even if PS3 wasn't coming out. The people that the PS2 appealed to still won't be willing to throw down the $600 bucks required for the purchase.

This is a problem for Sony because they are pretty much betting the farm that PS3 will dominate the next gen market like it did throughout the last era. The PS3 is priced at 600 bucks AND they are going to be selling it at a loss. If sony doesn't sell out practically all of their initial shipment of 2 million right off the bat and if they can't sell out the subsequent 2 million they are planing for the holidays they won't be able to acheive a proper saturation to sustain the system throughout the full cycle.

Getting back to those details. The market environment right now is completely different than when PS2 came out. Xbox 360 will have been out for over half a year, they have 6.5 million units shipped right now and will probably have closer to 9-10 million by the time that PS3 releases their initial 2 million. Nintendo Wii will release their system and it's price point alone will probably draw a large userbase (not to mention the alternative play style they are promoting.) I wouldn't be surpised if Microsoft responds to the release of the PS3 by lowering the price of their system. All of this can cause serious problems for, not only the PS3, but sony as a company given that they have pretty much everything riding on the fact that PS3 will carry them.

3. Then we have the issue of the lower price point PS3. This is sony's attempt to reel in that demographic that responded to the PS2. The problem is that those people that do buy into it on the basis that it will be a decent gaming system as well as a HD media player are getting purely raked over the coals. If things remain as they are now, the lower price point PS3 will not be an HD media player. Nvidia and ATI are already in class action lawsuits regarding the promotion of their hardware as HD compatible when they won't be. If Sony promotes the lower price point PS3 as a HD media player they run the very real risk of having similar cases against them. Then again, if they publicly state that the LPP PS3 isn't a HD media player they will lose the demographic they are trying to appeal to. which leads to the question of why have a cheaper PS3 in the first place?

4. I bring up the Rumble lawsuit not specifically because it relates, in any way, to Sony and the PS3's future success or failure but because it is a pristine example of the company reacting in an utterly obtuse and stubborn way. add that to the HDMI issues that are now arising and the path that Sony is taking is at best questionable and at worst entirely maladaptive.

Conclusion: Come this fall when PS3 is released early adopters will, no doubt, rush out to purchase a PS3. Sony's success is totally reliant on whether anyone else bothers to buy one. If you happen to be one of those early adopters and plan to purchase a PS3 at or around release, do yourself a favor and spend the extra 100$ to get the real system.

[Occhidiangela]

A couple points, not responding to anyone in particular.

*good analysis ensues*

Conclusion: Come this fall when PS3 is released early adopters will, no doubt, rush out to purchase a PS3. Sony's success is totally reliant on whether anyone else bothers to buy one. If you happen to be one of those early adopters and plan to purchase a PS3 at or around release, do yourself a favor and spend the extra 100$ to get the real system.

Between you and Tycho at PA are some excellent points worth pondering. Thanks for your analysis. The PSP is probably as far as Sony will ever get into my wallet, which it did this Xmas.

Occhi

[Hammerskjold]

>Conclusion: Come this fall when PS3 is released early adopters will, no doubt, rush out to purchase a PS3.
Sony's success is totally reliant on whether anyone else bothers to buy one. If you happen to be one of those early adopters and plan to purchase a PS3 at or around release, do yourself a favor and spend the extra 100$ to get the real system.


Well yeah, there will always be early adopters, bleeding edgers, or hardcore collectors who wouldn't blink twice to lay down extra cash for a (hypothetical), limited edition, digital camo skinned, personally signed by Hideo Kojima PS3 Complete package, with the mail in voucher for a Solid Snake plushie doll. A 100$ isn't a deal breaker for these people.

But as you suggest, they probably won't be the ones who will decide the success of this thing. From my own limited experience, most people I know would be willing to wait until they can pay around 150-300$ for a console. That's including whether or not it has other functions like a DVD player etc. New games, 60-70, up to a 100$ for a rare\limited editions\premium packaged games, otherwise 40- 50$ and under. I am not saying this as a hard fact, I am saying this is what I've seen generally in my little corner of North America.

I am curious to see if -any- console aside from this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Geo could crack and stay above that 300$ ceiling, introductory price notwithstanding. At least with Neo-Geo it's theoretically possible to try out their games at the arcades for 25c.

[Chesspiece_face]

Seems like legal mumbo jumbo to me. You could target Microsoft, Sony, and Electrosource... but were too busy and/or forgot to check if Nintendo violated your patent too?:blink:Maybe they're just Mario fans.

My read of this is that the "full analysis" mentioned isn't necissarily a technological analysis but more a legal analysis. From a business standpoint i think it can be assumed that they had someone crack open some nintendo controllers and rumble packs and check out the hardware inside. What's likely is that the hardware nintendo uses is different enough from thier hardware and the hardware that Sony, Microsoft, and Electrosource is using to make legal recourse against nintendo more complicated. If this is the case then for Immersion to file a case against Nintendo as well would unnecissarily complicate and risk the trials against the others.

which isn't to say that Immersion can't win a suit against nintendo but i'm sure that they would want to get these "easy" cases out of the way before they got into a more complicated legal battle.

[Chesspiece_face]

Resurrecting a dead thread, but here's a new article in Next Generation by David Cole of DFC Intelligence market analysts:

Link

[Drasca]

If M$ can drop the price on theirs by 100$ -or- add HD-DVD and digital output support without raising the price much by the time the PS3 launches, they might win this round before it begins.

M$ has stated they're not dropping their xbox 360 prices. Its on a www.dailytech.com article somewhere.

[Raelynn]

Resurrecting a dead thread, but here's a new article in Next Generation by David Cole of DFC Intelligence market analysts:

Link

My favorite analogy in this article: "It is almost as if Coca-Cola not only decided to go with a new formula, but also decided to exit the low brow soft drink business to go into high-end wines." which concerns Sony deciding to market the console towards the hard-core hardware people

I personally don't see a reason to buy the PS3 yet. Maybe if Blu-ray becomes the next format I will since it's a cheap blu-ray player and also plays games, but currently, I'm enjoying my brother's Xbox360. There's more games I want in the future that are Xbox360 exclusive or Xbox360 and PC only (or even just available at all on the Xbox360) than PS3 exclusive.

Then again, I enjoyed the Xbox more than the PS2. I will say that the PS2 has some really good games, and I may pick one up yet for some of them.

[Wyrm]

I bought my PS1 for FF7 and Resident Evil (humorously enough, I never bought that one, just borrowed a friend's copy) and wound up discovering amazing games like Breath of Fire, Suikoden and Xenogears (as well as many others). I bought a PS2 because that's the system those series' were continued on and because I really liked the previews for Devil May Cry and wanted to play that. Really, the next console I get will be determined by which system Suikoden continues on, which will probably be the PS3. It would be nice to see another BoF game, but unfortunately I don't think that'll happen.

As for the whole rumble technology fiasco, all I can say is: big whoop.

P.S. (and off-topic) No, I'm not a Suikoden fanboy (close, though), it's just that the Suiko series seems to be one of the only ones left that focuses on story and character development rather than "ooh lookie me I have perty gfx." If another company made an actual attempt at a story that wasn't cheesy, cliche (sorry, too lazy to look up the hotkey for an accented e), and redundant I might actually think about getting it (also a reason I might get a Wii -- Zelda games). It's really sad when action games have better stories than RPGs.