Today's question: Deep wounds and impale

[Lok]

The tool tip for deep wounds says at rank 3 it will do 60% of your weapon's average damage in a 12s bleed. Is this 'average damage' the weapon list damage, or the damage you do factoring in attack power etc? Is the bleed linked to the damage on the crit that triggered it? IE say HS crits for 700, will it do 0.6*(700), or is it going to track the non crit number?

Also rank 2 impale ups your 'critical strike bonus damage' by 20%. How is this calculated? For instance on a regular crit are you doing +100% without the talent, and +120% with the talent?

I am curious about these because I am considering going from a 17 arms 34 fury build to a 13 arms, 33 fury, 5 protection build to increase my mitigation for raiding. I have Deathbringer as my mainhand weapon and get a lot of DPS via overpowering, and am trying to figure out if the trade on damage for mitigation is worth it. Our guild lost a lot of veteran healers so we have a new crop of guys without all the +heal gear, and I think I need more mitigation.

[Kevin]

The tool tip for deep wounds says at rank 3 it will do 60% of your weapon's average damage in a 12s bleed. Is this 'average damage' the weapon list damage, or the damage you do factoring in attack power etc? Is the bleed linked to the damage on the crit that triggered it? IE say HS crits for 700, will it do 0.6*(700), or is it going to track the non crit number?

Also rank 2 impale ups your 'critical strike bonus damage' by 20%. How is this calculated? For instance on a regular crit are you doing +100% without the talent, and +120% with the talent?

I am curious about these because I am considering going from a 17 arms 34 fury build to a 13 arms, 33 fury, 5 protection build to increase my mitigation for raiding. I have Deathbringer as my mainhand weapon and get a lot of DPS via overpowering, and am trying to figure out if the trade on damage for mitigation is worth it. Our guild lost a lot of veteran healers so we have a new crop of guys without all the +heal gear, and I think I need more mitigation.

AP is used in the deep wounds calculation. If crusader is up when it procs or if battle shout is down, the deep wounds ticks do more or less damage.

You will get more mitigation from the 5 points in anticipation in most raid tanking situations than you will from 5 in shield block. In raid tanking situations you have plenty of rage to be able to spam shield block. Many of the mobs are right around a 2.5 second attack speed so your block value is effectively (your block chance + 75) / 2. OK so that isn't great math but it gets you a good number. The faster the mob attacks the less effective block you get from the shield block skill since it can only block one attack and with a 5 second cooldown you'll face more attacks with it down. 10 defense while not a lot is .4% dodge, .4% parry and .4% block as well cutting the mobs chance to hit you and to crit you by .4%. I haven't been able to test but there is a theory that the def from anticipation might work like "natural" defense making you seem like you are L62 for the purposes of crushing blows as well. Since anticipation will help cut down on crits and other other damage spikes while giving you pure avoidance over mitigation and since you'll have a very high effective block rate using the shield block skill you should see less damage spikes, which are what generally give healer the problems. Crits and crushing blows are generally what get the tank killed in a raid. Well what will usually get them killed is a healer getting hurt or killed, but assuming the healers are OK, it's the damage spikes. Anticipation helps get rid of those, block not really.

Honestly though I think you're wasting 5 points in the def tree. If you are going into the def tree you want to go at least 15 deep or 31 deep. 5, or 10 or 20 or 30 just don't usually make much sense because of what you have to give up. Getting 5/5 in deflection for the extra parry chance would be good. Moving points to get those 3 more talents could be worth it. 3% parry is more mitigation than 5% block.

Unfortunately with the way the trees are set up, it's very hard for a fury build to get any meaningful points in protection since most every warrior build benefits more from tactical mastery than it does from anything else. And this is alright since fury builds are the highest DPS builds you can get with end game gear, I don't have a problem with them losing out on some of the mitigation talents for this.

I still see the 31/5/15 builds as the only really viable ways, via talents, to get OK tanking and OK DPS. You lose a bit of mitigation and a bit of effeciency to the full prot builds (but you really only need 2 full prots for most raid encounters) you lose a bit of damage to the arms/fury and fury/arms builds. But if you want to help your healers more, just work on getting better tanking gear. A fury warrior in good tanking gear will have more mitigation than a protection warrior in mediocre tanking gear. The class is just that gear dependent. Just like a protection warrior in good DPS gear can out DPS a fury warrior in mediocre DPS gear (well that is really more dependent on the weapons but yeah).

Anyway just some of my advice on it. Had you said you lost one of your better prot spec tanks and you were likely to be the #1 or #2 tank on most of the runs you were on, then I would have counciled differnetly. But if it's just a few healers I don't see the gains being better than just doing more DPS to kill the mob faster, if you aren't the one tanking it.

[Concillian]

Deep wounds basically takes the average damage your main hand will deal assuming NO mitigation. Then it multiplies by 0.6 then applies that over time.

It definitely does take into account your AP. If you have more AP you will tick deep wounds for more
If you are enraged, deep wounds will tick for more
1H or 2H spec will cause deep wounds to tick for more than without.
Battle shout affects deep wounds damage since AP affects it.

It doesn't matter how hard you crit, it will tick the same given your listed damage is the same. You can crit with hamstring or bloodthirst or whatever and it will tick the same assuming you have the same AP, enrage state, etc...


Impale essentially adds +10% damage on YELLOW crits.

The tooltip says +20% of the bonus damage... well crits are +100% damage so instead they become +120% damage which is a total of 220%, which is 10% more than the 200% a crit will normally do.

Impale itself is only ever a small fraction of damage, say you have 25% crit and your meters show your damage at 50% white damage and 50% yellow damage... Impale is 0.25 * 0.5 * 0.1 = .0125 or +1.25%

My feeling is that the value of deep wounds determines whether the impale line is worthwhile, and in the case of dual weilding it usually isn't that valueable for two reasons:
1) your main hand listed damage generally isn't huge, though DB is getting there
2) you generally swing so often that you can "overwrite" the deep wounds before it ticks.

Dual weilders swing fast and flurry makes them swing faster. If you get a crit, then land another crit before the deep wounds can tick, your first crit yielded 0 damage from deep wounds and the second crit deep wounds won't tick for another few seconds. Get a string of crits and deep wounds is worthless. The same thing can happen with a 2H weapon, but since a tick is about 3 seconds, a slow 3.5-3.8 speed weapon will often get one tick in before overwriting itself... at least a lot less often than someone swinging two weapons that are generally much faster.

It's generally better for dual weild damage to go with DW spec over the impale line, as dual weild spec is generally over 5% total damage improvement and impale plus deep wounds for a dual weilder is generally closer to half that. I bet you barely notice giving up implae and deep wounds.

[Lok]

Thanks for the responses. It sounds like the bleed is useful, but impale is really not that much of a priority. I know when I was running the impale build, in PvP a mage would FN me and run off, only to fall over dead from bleeding, and a couple times I won after dying with a bleed, and it makes life a bit easier on rogues etc since I don't have to rend, I just get the bleeds off of overpowers.

I had not heard that about anticipation. I thought it was just another 10 defense on top of the pile of defense I already had. Was there some logs showing a reduction with anticipation?

The reasoning behind the shield block is this. The shield block talent adds 75% to your block rate. I saw one screenshot of a guy who had taken 1800 blows and not got a single crushing blow or crit. I then saw a log in which another guy got crushed while shield block was running. The theory then is if your shield block rate plus 75% equals 100%, crushing blow is pushed off the table. Probably there is a level difference factor here that slightly adjusts it (need 15 def to compensate for a 63 I suppose). So most of the guys I was reading about are shooting for 25% block rate. I am running with full might, Aegis of the Blood God, the 2 tanking rings from ZG and my block rate is 20.4% with the talent in defensive stance with no buffs. This should then reduce my chance of getting crushed to <5% for an even level foe, and perhaps better if I can land more block rate somehow (only 7k more rep for my Rage of Magumba ).

When I PvP, I have been using my shield more. The reason is pallys and rogues do the stun sequence and if I am dual wielding, I go down fast. But if I have shield out, I can survive long enough to intimidating shout or maybe down a free action pot, so normally I run around with shield out. Shield is also important against all those 2h MS builds, since I can shield block from defensive stance and starve them of rage and deny them crits. The +rage per block is helps too. My damage does go down a bit, but you get no honor when you are dead.

So if I go with the 13/33/5, I will have 3% more parry and 5% more shield block.

For farming instances I now run around with shield out. The reason is with 125 block, stuff in the SM etc barely gets past my block value and I can mow it down fast for an inventory of greens. I only really DW when I have a healer or a solid MT or I am downing singles. Most of my instance runs now see me as MT or MA since I have the full might rig and the other equipped tanks left the guild.

Hmm, maybe a 15 arms, 31 fury, 5 prot build could get me the bleed, block, overpower and some parry and strike up a happy middle ground.

[vor_lord]

The reasoning behind the shield block is this. The shield block talent adds 75% to your block rate. I saw one screenshot of a guy who had taken 1800 blows and not got a single crushing blow or crit. I then saw a log in which another guy got crushed while shield block was running. The theory then is if your shield block rate plus 75% equals 100%, crushing blow is pushed off the table. Probably there is a level difference factor here that slightly adjusts it (need 15 def to compensate for a 63 I suppose.

Can you provide a reference for this? I'm skeptical of this theory. To be perfectly honest, it sounds sloppy to code this way so I'd like to see some evidence and maybe some more explanation. Two little anecdotes do not a theory make.

Shield is also important against all those 2h MS builds, since I can shield block from defensive stance and starve them of rage and deny them crits. The +rage per block is helps too. My damage does go down a bit, but you get no honor when you are dead.

How does your shield deny them crits? Simply by having some extra +defense on your shield? Or is there some other interaction with a shield and crits that I am not aware of? Is it impossible to have a crit on a blocked hit?

I'd probably know that if I didn't play a priest mostly, please forgive my ignorance:P

[Quark]

Much theorycraft here.

First off, it seems block/crit can mix in PvP but not PvE.
Second off, they can't figure it out conclusively yet. Best evidence currently supports the theory that Shield Block is somehow different from the innate Block rate, thus modifying the tables differently. Observations show that > 100% Block means no crushing, but > 100% Block/Parry/Dodge combined does not mean no crushing (I can't support this, I'm just going off what I'm interpreting from the thread).

[Lok]

If you want a reference, go find the shield block and crits thread on The Elitist Jerks forum. There you will see screenies and the data. It goes for about 8 pages.

While you are there, read the combat mechanics post. There you will see that the game has a hierarchy of outcomes, where if you increase the chance of something higher up on the table, something lower down on the table gets pushed off and wont occur. Specfically for shield block, if you go into defensive stance and hit Shield Block, you can shove their crit rate off the table. No crits equals less damage and little rage, which slows down the whole MS thing for them. Since they use slow 2h weapons, your shield block will work great.

I am not sure how this works in PvP v. PvE, but when I deul 2h warriors, they complain about a lack of rage when I shield block. It is not nearly as effective in PvP as it is in PvE.

[Artega]

Impale works off of the bonus damage. That is, if you crit for 200, you'll do 220 total with Impale (100 x 1.2 = 120.) This actually makes it a 10% damage boost on crits; the wording might make you think otherwise, though.

This is assuming my math is correct, though; having been up for the past 50 hours, I'm wondering if it is or not:)

[vor_lord]

If you want a reference, go find the shield block and crits thread on The Elitist Jerks forum. There you will see screenies and the data. It goes for about 8 pages.

Good stuff, thank you.

[lemekim]

Impale itself is only ever a small fraction of damage, say you have 25% crit and your meters show your damage at 50% white damage and 50% yellow damage... Impale is 0.25 * 0.5 * 0.1 = .0125 or +1.25%

Small nit on your equation. 25% chance to crit does not mean that 25% of your damage will be from crits.

To give an example, if you have a 25% chance to crit, and your average damage per swing is 100, and 200 on a crit, 4 swings will on average produce 3 hits and 1 crit, which will come out on average to 500 damage, of which 200 damage came from a crit, which is greater then 25% (in fact, 200/500 is 40%).

Impale makes that math a bit more tricky, since your crits in the above example will do 220 damage, but it's still easy enough to calculate - crits will provide 220 out of total 520 damage, or 42.3% damage. The percent damage of a crit that comes from impale in this case is 20/220 = 9.1%

So, with 25% chance to crit, assuming 50% of your damage is yellow, impale will provide...

0.423*0.50*0.091= 1.92% of total damage, or roughly 1% increase in damage per talent point. This percentage goes up with increase in crit rate, of course.


As for the original post...

Ironically, while most people say they go for Impale, from my experience and parsing, it's usually the Deep Wounds that provide larger DPS increase, ranging from 3-4% for dual-wielding Fury warriors, to 5-7% for two-hander users.

Of course, as others pointed out, DW spec will still give you higher increase in damage, however there is no reason not to have both if you are aiming for pure raiding (thus not really requiring extra points in Improved Intercept and such).

Another thing that I noticed is people's choice of Improved Berserker Rage over Anger Management in their PvE DPS builds (not saying that this is directed at you Lok, because some people do enjoy Fury in PvP! :)). While the first one provides 20 rage over 1 minute for 2 points, and eats 2 global cooldowns, Anger Management provides 30 rage over the same minute, passively. 30 rage is another Bloodthirst every minute, which is a lot.

[Concillian]

Small nit on your equation. 25% chance to crit does not mean that 25% of your damage will be from crits.

To give an example, if you have a 25% chance to crit, and your average damage per swing is 100, and 200 on a crit, 4 swings will on average produce 3 hits and 1 crit, which will come out on average to 500 damage, of which 200 damage came from a crit, which is greater then 25% (in fact, 200/500 is 40%).

If it were 4 hits and zero crits it would be 400 damage.

The crit provided 100 damage, not 200, since the 100 damage would have happened anyway (crits replace hits, never misses)

So the crit did not account for 40% of the damage, in actuality it accounted for 20% of the total damage, or 100/500.

add impale to that hit and it is 300 + 220 = 520
20 / 500 = 4% more damage on yellow attacks, or about 2% of total. This is admittedly higher than I had factored. and is about 1% more damage per talent point, which jives with most of the rest of the talent points.

[lemekim]

If it were 4 hits and zero crits it would be 400 damage.

The crit provided 100 damage, not 200, since the 100 damage would have happened anyway (crits replace hits, never misses)

Yes, the bonus damage is only 100, but the crit itself was for 200 damage. This is just a matter of perspective on what you choose your frame of reference to be. You can choose to treat crits as separate attacks that do double the damage, or you can choose crits as bonus on top of existing damage. But if you DO choose to judge crits as bonus damage, then you have to use Impale as 20% for the bonus of the crit (as per tooltip), not 10% as per your original calculations.

So the crit did not account for 40% of the damage, in actuality it accounted for 20% of the total damage, or 100/500.

Correct - notice that it's not 25% either as our original crit rate. But again, this number is just a matter of perspective.

add impale to that hit and it is 300 + 220 = 520
20 / 500 = 4% more damage on yellow attacks, or about 2% of total. This is admittedly higher than I had factored. and is about 1% more damage per talent point, which jives with most of the rest of the talent points.

Yes, the results are identical to what you get using the other method - it's 2% increase from exisiting damage, and corresponds to 1.92% of your total damage. Not too bad. It would be interesting to see just how much damage increase do other talents provide.

[Artega]

Note that I will be sending a letter filled with various unkind things if Blizzard ever changes Anger Management so that it no longer causes passive Rage generation while in combat:)

I never much liked Deep Wounds, simply because it's a DOT that I can't control. If you accidentally crit a target you wanted to CC, too bad. If you wanted to fear for a bandage but crit before the fear, too bad. If you crit before the Deep Wounds expires, too bad. The relatively small increase in damage Impale causes simply isn't really worth it, in my opinion.

[Jester]

On the subject of deep wounds/impale, and the associated Arms build...

Quite unexpectedly, Drakk dropped the ultra-rare epic 2h sword "Blackblade of Shahram" last night on Terenas, and, for the first time in memory, I beat Wimpy's roll for it. (Sorry, Wimpy! I really am planning on using it! Honest!)

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=25672

Now, I'm currently specced DW Fury to try and make use of my other beautiful weapon, Eshkandar's Right Claw. However, I don't really feel I have the gear to support that build. I have little agility, low crit %, and absolutely no +to hit gear. Also, I lack anything better than a 40 dps claw in the offhand. All told, I don't really feel this spec is the greatest for me, at this time, except that it makes use of the claw.

The build I've wanted to use for a long time is the 31/5/15 hybrid tank build. It would give me versatility, since my role is far from fixed. In 5 mans, I'm often the main tank, but not always. In 10 mans, I'm seldom the main tank, but need to offtank well. And in MC, I'm usually not tanking, but when I am, I would really like the extra security of the 15 points in prot.

However, I may be selling the fury build a little short here. It is pretty darn decent DPS, even if I'm not geared well for it. (There is a thread in the meeting stone where I posted the build I have now, for anyone interested. Pretty standard DW fury build, with cleave instead of HS.) So, two questions for everyone:

1) Should I respec to the 31/5/15? (Yes, obviously, I'm going to go with what I want to do in the end. But I'd like to know about effectiveness before I make the choice.)

2) If I do, what should the build be?

My thoughts: http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?LAMxdV0oxkVZVV00x

This forsakes impale, which I think is a pain in the butt. However, the talents I replace it with (notably improved charge and improved hamstring) are pretty suboptimal. Improved HS, however, would be very nice with my claw, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.

-Jester