Computer assistance

[swirly]

I've been having some computer problems and so was thinking I would post here with whats going on and my theories and see if people agree or can think of other things to try. The basic problem is that my computer keeps freezing. It basically just locks up completely. Whatever is on the screen stays there, the mouse doesn't move, the keyboard has no effect (can't even turn the numlock light on and off or anything of the such). Basically I have to go hit the restart button on the tower and let the computer boot again. Now this used to happen once or twice a week and while annoying, it could be put up with. A few days ago it started doing it within a few minutes of being booted. So the computer is unusable at the moment (I'm on an old p2 450 currently).

My first step in trying to fix the problem was reinstalling the OS. I can get windows 98 installed on the computer alright, but it does the same thing; freezes after having been running for a few minutes. I tried installing 2k (I can't find my xp cds at the moment heh), but it wouldn't make it through the install. I also tried putting a version of red hat on the computer thinking that maybe something other than windows would work. It froze during the installation of that too though. All this points to a hardware problem to me.

So then I started swapping out hardware to see if anything would make the computer stable. Didn't have any luck here. I eventually booted the computer with just RAM, power supply, video card, and hard drive attached with keyboard and mouse plugged into PS/2 ports. This still did the same thing. I then went and attached a completely different power supply, video card, and harddrive to the system and it still does the same thing. I also tried reseating the RAM and also running with just one of the sticks in (have tried both by themselves). None of this solved the problem. I'm currently using that RAM in this computer as well as one of the harddrives, video cards, and power supplies. So since they are working in this one I am left thinking that they aren't the problem.

This leaves me thinking that something is wrong with either the motherboard or CPU. Normally I would think it could be a heat issue, but this happens with the case off and just after having been booted when nothing else is running. It shouldn't be overheating then. The CPU does have a heatsink and a fan attached to it as well. So as far as I can tell there is something wrong with the MB/CPU.

Can anybody think of anything else to try here? Any ideas on what could be wrong and how to fix it? Have you heard of MB/CPU problems causing symptoms like this? Since I'm thinking its the MB/CPU that is messing up, I've done a little poking around for replacements. I'm looking at this one. Its a generic brand that I don't know much about, but it looks to be a little faster than my old one and so would be good enough for me if it would be reliable. The main thing that drew me to it though was the price. I will have to talk my parents into buying whatever replacement I find and so I have to try and keep the price down. Does anybody see anything wrong with that particularr MB/CPU combo? Anything that one should typically avoid or that is a red flag for problems to come?

So basically I'm looking for three things here.

1: Thoughts on how to fix the computer that is having said problems.
2: Agreement/Disagreement about my opinion on it being the MB/CPU that is the problem.
3: Thoughts on that MB/CPU combo as a replacement.

Anything else you can say that is helpful is welcome as well of course. Thanks ahead of time.

[Nystul]

I was thinking damaged CPU even before you got to the part about reinstalling Windows. Given everything you've tried, mobo/CPU seems like the most likely culprit for sure.

[kandrathe]

It is acting the way machines do when the CPU overheats. If you haven't accidently bumped the heat sink off, then you could check to insure that it is still firmly seated, heat sink is not clogged with dust, and the fan is cooling it.

[Taem]

It is acting the way machines do when the CPU overheats. If you haven't accidently bumped the heat sink off, then you could check to insure that it is still firmly seated, heat sink is not clogged with dust, and the fan is cooling it.

Yes, I agree. I built my computer myself it is a very powerful machine and will freeze due to overheating if I'm not careful. I usually crack open the chasis and let the system cool off while I'm playing a video game - I only fear some charged partical will fly into the machine and hit the ram, but other than this, seems to work just fine. My motherboard has a program that tells me the systems CPU and MB temperature at all times and will shut down the computer for me before overheating (sometimes).

It might be worth mentioning that I once recieved a nasty virus which wrote to the RAM on the BIOS (I didn't even know this was possible until it happened to me) and no matter how many times I reinstalled Windows XP, the damn virus kept comming back! I finally looked at the BIOS and the preboot paths and saw some remote address the computer was hooking out too before Windows boot up. I guess my computer was getting the virus from this remote site! I then took out the battery on my MB, reset the BIOS (by moving that resistor chip), and reinstalled Windows then the BIOS and BIOS updates. Never had any more problems!

[swirly]

It is acting the way machines do when the CPU overheats. If you haven't accidently bumped the heat sink off, then you could check to insure that it is still firmly seated, heat sink is not clogged with dust, and the fan is cooling it.

I had checked the heatsink and fan before posting and they seemed fine. Since you brought it up I went ahead and took the fan and heatsink off, reseated the processor, then reattached the heatsink and fan. I don't have any thermal paste to add to it, but there looked to be some there from when it was first attached. It does feel like how a machine acts when it overheats, but I just don't see how it could be what with the case being off and it not doing anything other than booting. I think I've resigned myself to getting a new MB/CPU. Now I just have to decide if this is right for me or if I should keep looking. I figure $100 is around what I can swing.

[NiteFox]

Get some thermal paste. Even if it looks as if there's still some left on a processor/heatsink if you've removed it, that just means that the "seal", if you will, has been broken.

Most heatsinks have a thermal layer on them that works absolutely fine on the first touch, but becomes practically useless if the chip and the sink has been seperated. So if you do anything with the heatsink that involves seperation, you should get some spunk and butter the cooler.

It's a throwaway item for most computer maintenance stores. When I was building my machine my local store gave me two syringes of thermal paste for nothing. Otherwise you're looking at a price calculable in pennies.

[swirly]

Get some thermal paste. Even if it looks as if there's still some left on a processor/heatsink if you've removed it, that just means that the "seal", if you will, has been broken.

Do you think it will do enough to fix the problem though? It just seems unlikely to me since the problems were there before I moved the heatsink. It seemed to be fastened on the CPU well to start with. So I just am doubting that it will solve the problem. I suppose I can try it though if I can find a store around here that has it. Don't know of many local computer stores really.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Sounds like a goblin witch put a spell on it. Have arcane symbols drawn in ash and lavender oil appeared upon your doorstep?

As to the other words writ by the others that I do stare at upon my glowing glass of electrical scrying, I know not what they speak of. Methinks they may be sorcerors. Fear not, I have plenty of torches on hand.

[Roland]

Do you think it will do enough to fix the problem though? It just seems unlikely to me since the problems were there before I moved the heatsink. It seemed to be fastened on the CPU well to start with. So I just am doubting that it will solve the problem. I suppose I can try it though if I can find a store around here that has it. Don't know of many local computer stores really.

Since you're upgrading your computer, in a way, anyway, you might as well ditch Socket 478 and join the new world.:P

You can get a MUCH better MB for the less money (I'll link a few), even in Socket 775 (LGA).

Here is a MB / CPU combo for the same money. Here's a few Socket 478 Mobos:
ECS
MSI
Gigabyte
ASUS

ECS is low-end quality, but not terrible. The rest are good name-brands, but low-end-priced mobos. Still, you can find a LOT in the low-end price range.

Here's some Socket 775 (LGA) boards, also in the low price range (due to older NB chips):
ECS
Abit
MSI
ASUS

Here's some LGA boards with some mid-range chips:
ECS
ASUS
Abit
Gigabyte

Here's some LGA boards with some high-end chips:
ECS
Abit
Gigabyte
Abit

Note that for the mid- to high-end NB chip Mobos, you'll need to upgrade your RAM and video card, in addition to the CPU. But, all told, you could make a good system for $200 - $300. It may be worth your while to slowly build your PC one component at a time, rather than settle for out-of-date hardware now, especially since you have a running PC currently.

For a CPU, I'd go with something like:
Single-Core Pentium 4
Dual-Core Pentium D

As for RAM, here's a good choice for some inexpensive DDR2 RAM.

For $225, you can build a decent rig, getting most MAIN components new (CPU / Motherboard / RAM), and for around another $50 to $75 you can get a decent video card to go with them (GeForce 6600 - 7300 series would be good). Granted, I know that all that is out of your planned bugdet, but keep in mind it's possible to find LGA boards that support DDR and AGP, thus allowing you to retain your RAM and video card, while still upgrading your CPU / Mobo (such as any of these fine boards). It's all dependent on how far you want to go now, versus how far you may want to go later.

Oh, and to answer your original question:
Since you determined it's not the RAM, and not the PSU, it's definitely either a CPU or Mobo problem. Best to do both.

[Drasca]

heh, all that, and we're only a week away from the AMD/Intel CPU official price slashing. :D

I'm excited about corporate price wars benefitting us, the end consumer, aren't you?

[swirly]

Here is a MB / CPU combo for the same money.

That does look like a better opton than the one I was looking at. The RAM is different in that I've been using 168 pin DIMMS and that uses 184 pin ones. I do have 2 184 pin DDR 256MB PC 2100 sticks though so that change is good for me. The board supports PC 3200, but I figure it should be able to use the PC 2100 sticks, just will run at the slower speed. Still an upgrade though.

I'll be using a GeForce 4Ti4200-8X 128MB graphics card that I have which I figure is probably better than the onboard video (not that I know anything about it heh).

I'm betting that this one doesn't come preassembled like the other one did which means that I'll have to make a point of buying some thermal paste to go with it cause I doubt it comes in the package. That shouldn't be a problem though, just something I'll have to remember to do.

Its still a socket 478, but I think that I'll just have to settle for that to stay under $100. Going to a 775 seems to bump the price up to $125 or so which while not horrible is still higher than I'm looking for.

To be honest, I'm not really planning for the future with all of this. I figure that this computer won't really be one that will be upgraded and kept up to date. Instead I'm more likely (when I get a job and thus money of my own heh) to either just buy a new computer or assemble one from scratch with new parts. I'd feel better being able to pick and choose what I want then with my own money whereas now its more a matter of what can do the job.

I do think that MB/CPU combo is a better buy though so I've switched my attention to it. I also like that its from newegg which is a site I have heard good things about and so feel more comfortable going through.

[DeeBye]

I'll be using a GeForce 4Ti4200-8X 128MB graphics card that I have which I figure is probably better than the onboard video (not that I know anything about it heh).

How about an AMD motherboard/processor option?

If you want to continue using that AGP card and still have some upgrade room, consider the ASRock Socket 939 Dual motherboard. This is an AMD board, so you'll have to go with something like this (Athlon64 3000+). Total cost for the pair is about $160USD, which is pretty decent considering the flexibility of it.

The advantage of this board is that it sports both an AGP slot and a PCI-E slot. You can continue using the AGP card until you feel the need to upgrade to a more modern PCI-E one.

[swirly]

How about an AMD motherboard/processor option?

Total cost for the pair is about 160USD, which is pretty decent considering the flexibility of it.

I have no particular problem with an AMD MB/CPU option, its just a cost issue really. For more money I could get better options for the future and such, but its not really my money I'm looking to spend. I'm pretty much stuck at a $100 price cap. I can push it a little like to $110 or so if needed for shipping, thermal paste, and any other things that are required to get it working, but I really can't push too much more. Even that $100 isn't for sure yet. Its possible I'll be stuck on this P2 450 that I am currently using. Man is it slow! I'm hopeful to be able to spend the $100 on this stuff, but going any higher just makes it less likely to happen even if it is technically a better purchase.

So really I'm just looking for what I can get for that price. Then later on I will hopefully be working and so have money of my own that I can use to look into building a better comp. Really though, I don't have that many needs as far as a strong comp goes. The toughest thing I generally use it for is playing WoW and thats not all that tough. So the MB/CPU combo that Roland suggested will probably last me several years. Then if I do find a need for more, I can give a more serious look into things.

[Roland]

I also like that its from newegg which is a site I have heard good things about and so feel more comfortable going through.

I've built entire systems from individual components bought through them. Never had any problems. I highly recommend them.

[Roland]

I have no particular problem with an AMD MB/CPU option, its just a cost issue really. For more money I could get better options for the future and such, but its not really my money I'm looking to spend. I'm pretty much stuck at a $100 price cap. I can push it a little like to $110 or so if needed for shipping, thermal paste, and any other things that are required to get it working, but I really can't push too much more. Even that $100 isn't for sure yet. Its possible I'll be stuck on this P2 450 that I am currently using. Man is it slow! I'm hopeful to be able to spend the $100 on this stuff, but going any higher just makes it less likely to happen even if it is technically a better purchase.

So really I'm just looking for what I can get for that price. Then later on I will hopefully be working and so have money of my own that I can use to look into building a better comp. Really though, I don't have that many needs as far as a strong comp goes. The toughest thing I generally use it for is playing WoW and thats not all that tough. So the MB/CPU combo that Roland suggested will probably last me several years. Then if I do find a need for more, I can give a more serious look into things.

You could also try this:
ECS
Celeron D

Combined total: $106.90 (including shipping - may be less due to combined ship). Gets you a decent mobo and a decent CPU. Better mobo, IMHO. You lose RAID, but gain more RAM, PCI slots, etc. A worthy tradeoff, if you ask me. A little bit more money, but money well spent.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[swirly]

You could also try this:
ECS
Celeron D

Combined total: $106.90 (including shipping - may be less due to combined ship). Gets you a decent mobo and a decent CPU. Better mobo, IMHO. You lose RAID, but gain more RAM, PCI slots, etc. A worthy tradeoff, if you ask me. A little bit more money, but money well spent.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

How does ECS compare to Bioware as companies? I know you said earlier "ECS is low-end quality, but not terrible." so what is Bioware in comparison? Since the current board in the computer with the problems is an ECS it makes me a little hesitant about them, thats probably not a good basis though.

I do like that the ECS board isn't a micro board. The graphics card I'll probably use has a fan on it that on a micro board pretty much gets covered by the nearest PCI card. Always kind of disliked that. With a non-micro board there should be more space between them and so more room to breathe. Some people in the comments for the ECS board complained that the USb wasn't inherently 2.0, but that they had to d/l some driver from a site to make it so. I don't know how I feel about that. I mean..if its 2.0 then its 2.0 right? Even if it does require a driver d/l to function as such. I also like that the ECS board uses an Intel chipset while the Bioware one uses a VIA chipset. I've seen VIA chipsets alot and so a change might be good, but that doesn't mean Intel will be any better or any worse.

I don't know. I feel like the ECS board is the better board, but that I'm leaning against it because its ECS and the processor is a tiny bit slower. I'll have to give things more thought.

[Roland]

How does ECS compare to Bioware as companies? I know you said earlier "ECS is low-end quality, but not terrible." so what is Bioware in comparison? Since the current board in the computer with the problems is an ECS it makes me a little hesitant about them, thats probably not a good basis though.

I do like that the ECS board isn't a micro board. The graphics card I'll probably use has a fan on it that on a micro board pretty much gets covered by the nearest PCI card. Always kind of disliked that. With a non-micro board there should be more space between them and so more room to breathe. Some people in the comments for the ECS board complained that the USb wasn't inherently 2.0, but that they had to d/l some driver from a site to make it so. I don't know how I feel about that. I mean..if its 2.0 then its 2.0 right? Even if it does require a driver d/l to function as such. I also like that the ECS board uses an Intel chipset while the Bioware one uses a VIA chipset. I've seen VIA chipsets alot and so a change might be good, but that doesn't mean Intel will be any better or any worse.

I don't know. I feel like the ECS board is the better board, but that I'm leaning against it because its ECS and the processor is a tiny bit slower. I'll have to give things more thought.

That tiny bit slower won't be noticeable. As for how ECS compares to Biostar (not Bioware), I'd say they're about equal. I've had ECS before. I don't like them, but I'm a stickler for quality. They're not BAD boards, just inexpensive. You get what you pay for, IMHO. As for VIA vs. Intel, ever since 865 and on, Intel has been dominating. I wouldn't use anything but Intel NB chips, save for Nvidia for an SLI setup, which you won't be doing.

ECS is great for a budget board. For something with a lot of features, added goodies, and software, look elsewhere. Their components seem fine (for reference, I have an Abit board that the onboard audio 50% bit the dust after only a year - and they are a name I've heard good things about), but I wouldn't put much faith in being able to do anything serious with the system. Overclocking more than a little would probably stress the system too much, but some minor OCing should be fine, which would also take care of your CPU speed issue.

Pros:
Budget-oriented
Basic functionality for a low price

Cons:
Inexpensive components
Lack of additional components (extra cables, add-on cards, etc. - this is the stuff you look for in the high-end)
Lack of additional / useful software (just the bare minimum here; again, higher-end boards have more to offer)
Minimal BIOS settings (don't expect to be able to fine-tune your system's settings, including OCing)

Overall, I'd go with the ECS. I never had any actual problems with my old ECS board, and I beat the HELL out of it OCing everything I could. This here Abit board, OTOH, lost the front- and center-channel speaker outputs after a year (hardware failure), and I haven't even really OCed it at all, except for testing purposes (it runs a little too hot when OCed, so I merely tweaked the RAM timings). For me, I value quality over price any day (to an extent), but if I was on a strict budget, I'd recommend an ECS, since I have experience with them. I can't comment on Biostar, overall, since I've never used them and never heard much of anything about them.

[DeeBye]

I don't know. I feel like the ECS board is the better board, but that I'm leaning against it because its ECS and the processor is a tiny bit slower. I'll have to give things more thought.

For what it's worth, my old AMD 1700+ system used (and still uses) an ECS mainboard. It has onboard video (+ AGP slot), audio, NIC, and never gave me even a lick of trouble in the 4 years I've owned it. The onboard stuff is kinda lacking in features, but it all works well enough. Most importantly, the thing was dirt cheap and still works great.

From what I hear, ECS is pretty much hit-or-miss as far as quality goes. Either they work great right out of the gate, or they just refuse to work. If you get one, be sure it has some kind of warrantee. Any problems you might find will likely happen within the first month or so, in which case you can RMA it.