Does anybody here play D&D?

[Taem]

If so, I have created an accessory for 3rd edition you might enjoy called the Diehards Handbook. This handbook questions the concept of the Hit Point system in D&D (amongst many other things) and presents a new style of play that is refreshing and challenging. This book focuses on "role-playing," not "roll-playing!"

Creating this handbook has been a hobby of mine for quite some time now, but after years of gaming with the rules governed in this handbook, I was persuaded to release it to the general public so others might enjoy what myself and a few others have also. This handbook was created in MS Word and "printed" with PrimoPDF into a .pdf file so everyone can see it. It's pretty darn accurate to the Word file but there are some minor graphical issues you probably won't even notice. I never intended to sell this written works so feel free to download and distribute as you wish, however I would like credit for any material presented within if you decide to use it in your own works. Of note, this accessory has been heavily play-tested in its current form. Comments and suggestions are more than welcome, however I doubt I will alter the handbook anytime soon save for some horrendous unforeseen balance issues.

I have also created a complete stand-alone adventure to correspond with the special rules presented in this handbook. Everything in the adventure is my own works. Most of the scanned maps look much better on paper for some reason. Thoughts and comments regarding the adventure are also welcome.

You can view or download the handbook and adventure by visiting my website here or directly download the Diehards Handbook and Adventure.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . .

Quite an impressive piece of work. I've downloaded both, and gave them a quick look. This might be what I need to get back into pnp RP (if I can pull a group together).

Thanks.

--Pete

[pakman]

I will have to give this a look. I used to RP for my first couple years in college when I was introduced to it, but most of my friends that I played with either graduated or have moved on, and I haven't looked or found a decent group to play with.

We played all sorts of games: AD&D (v3.0 since 3.5 hadn't come out yet), Shadowrun, Vampire: The Masquerade, L5R, Seven Seas (which I liked the most), and even the Star Trek RPG. I never really liked the combat system in AD&D, though, it took entirely too long to kill even one monster, but I guess it depends on the DM. The DMs that I used to play with were more about the story and the RP element more than getting into fights, which is what I liked.

Thanks for posting this.

[Taem]

I either uploaded an older version that I hadn't proofread yet or didn't save the changes I made to the older version. In either case, some of the information in the handbook is erroneous and I can’t find the newest version. At the moment I don’t have time to make these changes, but I will list what is incorrect below and fix these errors in a couple of days:

FRONT-COVER

• I have no idea where my front cover has gone!?! It had a nice boarder and was somehow lost between version updates.<>
  [st]
  BIBLIOGRAPHY
  • I forgot to mention in the AD&D section the Fighters Handbook.<>
    
  • And the Dungeon Masters Guide.<>
    [st]
    CLASSES
    • The Introduction makes no mention of the Berserker class and incorrectly states there are only 2-new classes.<>
      
    • The Berserker class still has his hit die unnecessarily listed.<>
      
    • On the Skill Defense table, it does not mention the Berserker. Because the Berserker revels in pain, his Skill Defense category is the same as the Wizards. This also balances out this class.<>
      [st]
      SPELLS
      • "Dream Stalker" makes mention of a 'journey' and 'dream' form of travel, but these concepts have long been removed from this handbook.<>
        
      • Psionic spells are all missing their ability requirements. I will update this later.<>
        
      • The spell "Elemental Enchantment" had a 'wind' category that required an "equilibrium" check to stand. The correct term is "balance" check. Also, the spell was deemed unbalanced and instead of knocking an opponent down would push them back 1-square on the combat grid.<>
        [st]
        MISCELLANEOUS / PUNISHMENT
        • The Gauntlet is suppose to be (#p * 10) strikers, not 1d100.<>
          
        • Time in the stocks was decidedly reduced to 1d10-days, not 1d10+10.<>
          [st]

[Urza-DSF]

This book focuses on "role-playing," not "roll-playing!"

Ugh, not to belittle your achievement (taking a look right now) But I have *always* hated the assumption that someone who wants to optimize their character automatically dosent want to roleplay. Wanting a character who dosen't get his butt handed to him by a CR 1/8 Arthritic Kobold does not imply that the only thing I care about is being a combat monster. Hell, the moment you decide as a player that "Hmm, I guess I'll put my highest stat in INT for this Wizard" your optimizing/roll-playing.

The two things have almost nothing to do with each other, and any deficiency on "role-playing" is on the fault of the player, not the system he uses.

[Mithrandir]

I'm almost finished reading it and, I must say, it really shows how much effort you put into it. Bravo. I don't have a 3.0/3.5 PHB around here, but I thought poisons and diseases only do ability score damage (and not hit point damage) in 3.0/3.5 D&D which was one of the major reasons for the revision - to address that issue of the "hit point quandry" as you put it. You make a valid point with healing however.

I haven't played non-computer game D&D in a long time. Eberron looks like it would be fun but no one I know seems interested in getting a RPing group together. Oh well, NWN does a fine job at keeping me busy when I'm hankerin' for some D&D I suppose:)

[pakman]

I've played Eberron. It is quite fun with the marks you can get on your character. The background is very interesting as are the new character classes. The campaign we started but never finished consisted of a warforged crafter that made beer, a chaotic good orc that wanted to be a sorceror, an neutral evil fighter that concentrated on using a bow instead of a sword (me), and I forget the fourth character. Anyways my fighter got killed by the orc wannabe sorceror ('tis a long story). So instead I rolled up a neutral wizard that specialized in Spider Climb and illusion spells. He had a desk on the ceiling in his office and own a bar in the poorest part of the city with the floating buildings (I can't remember the name, but it's in the Eberron Campaign Setting book). All in all it was a fun experience, just wish we had time to finish the campaign.

[Wyrm]

Ugh, not to belittle your achievement (taking a look right now) But I have *always* hated the assumption that someone who wants to optimize their character automatically dosent want to roleplay. Wanting a character who dosen't get his butt handed to him by a CR 1/8 Arthritic Kobold does not imply that the only thing I care about is being a combat monster. Hell, the moment you decide as a player that "Hmm, I guess I'll put my highest stat in INT for this Wizard" your optimizing/roll-playing.

The two things have almost nothing to do with each other, and any deficiency on "role-playing" is on the fault of the player, not the system he uses.

I've always gone under the assumption that roll-playing meant doing a dice check for every little thing. Stuff like:
player: "I'm walking through the woods"
dm: "spot check"
player rolls d20
dm: "listen check"
etc. -- and you take about 2 minutes to walk 5 feet and realise you hear the wind blowing through the leaves. It's never had anything to do with how much a character is tweaked; whereas role-playing meant you spend time telling your story and the dm basically does a judgement call on whether they want someone to hear something or whatever.

On a side note, I used to be a part of a 3e campaign (several, actually) that was conducted via an AIM chatroom. Maybe if there's enough interest we might be able to start a casual one of those (i.e. meeting once a week for a few hours).

[Taem]

On a side note, I used to be a part of a 3e campaign (several, actually) that was conducted via an AIM chatroom. Maybe if there's enough interest we might be able to start a casual one of those (i.e. meeting once a week for a few hours).

Was it fun? I've heard of those before, but never got into them. I think I tried a PBM (or email rather) version and found it entirely boring. I believe the live chat ones feature die rollers and everything, correct? I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl, although nothing can replace ye old pen-and-paper, IMO.

[Urza-DSF]

Heh, well I would definatly be up for something like that, if a suitable time could be found to run sessions. If nothing else there is RPOL aka: Roleplay Online, a damn good message board system with Dice Rollers, character portraits, character sheet areas and a number of other great features.

[Xiuhcoatl]

Was it fun? I've heard of those before, but never got into them. I think I tried a PBM (or email rather) version and found it entirely boring. I believe the live chat ones feature die rollers and everything, correct? I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl, although nothing can replace ye old pen-and-paper, IMO.

Hi Meat,
I didn't look at your handbook since it is DnD (3rd Ed or later) but I think it is great that you are providing your work for Lurkers to benefit from. Since it seems that you and a few others here are interested in starting up an online game I will offer some ideas and feedback based on my 2 1/2 years of experience doing exactly that. Maybe my post will inspire you to run your own successful online campaign. The online games that I've run are the closest thing to real PnP ADnD that I have experienced and are certainly worth the effort and time.

First a little background:
I use a combination of 1st and 2nd Edition + home rules for my online games. The main reason for sticking with older editions of ADnD is my familiarity of the old system as well as the 20 or so years of customized background material that I refuse to waste my time converting to a system that fails to impress me. My first adventure started with 3rd level characters and ran from Nov 2003 until May 2006. This was an experimental adventure created mainly to test the concept of running an online ADnD game that I didn't spend as much time on as I could have (for example, I was distracted by 7 months of WoW) and I am grateful to all the players who tolerated my ineptness :P. My games are a combination of role playing, hack and slash and puzzle solving (riddles and other mental exercises). A couple players were new to ADnD and learned how to play from the rest of the group. The group members changed over the course of the adventure and ended up with 4 people who are now in my second adventure with 2 new players. The second adventure will be more ambitious now that I am confident in the abilities of the players, and is mid to high level, with characters ranging from 14-16L. It started where the last party left off continuing an unfolding story.

Now for the feedback and ideas:
An online ADnD game played once a week for ~3 hours a session is feasible, even for people who live in different time zones. I currently have 6 players in my game from eastern Europe to the eastern US and one from Singapore, so it is not impossible to have a multi-national game. Choose a time frame that is reasonable for your players, but it should be a time when the DM is alert and unhindered. DM'ing an online game requires more effort, time and attention than a RL game due to the restrictions on how information is disseminated. Players should also restrict their activities during the game session (they should not be playing other games).

Party Size- The DM should limit the party to 4-6 people, preferably one character per player. A smaller group gives each player and the DM ample time to become more involved in the game and the story.

Staging- there are numerous programs available to support/enhance the online ADnD gaming experience, some that include mapping support with character icons and chatroom dice rollers, but I prefer a simpler method: chat program (irc) + white board (net meeting). A log of the game session is a great reference (for absenteers and senile DM's ;)) and it is the main reason I have not switched to teamspeak. A chat program like irc also provides a real time visual log of everyone's actions for those who might have missed it (non-native English speakers tend to prefer "subtitles" especially with all the unfamiliar accents and slang that comprise the English language). A combination of both can be used although that might create confusion.

Dice- I allow my players to use real dice and post their rolls in channel. I trust them to be honest; if you can't trust your players then you are wasting your time. Sometimes I make secret rolls for the characters just as I would in a real life game (one of the few benefits to an online game is that the players don't see me doing this ;)). Other DM's might prefer a chat supported program for this, especially when people don't have real dice.

Mapping- as the DM, I do most of the mapping during the game by copy-pasting sections of my maps to whiteboard (this is a quick and easy way to keep the game moving while providing detailed visuals). Players can indicate their positions by moving colored dots (or whatever you prefer to use as markers) on the map. This is especially helpful during combat situations (imagine using miniatures in a RL game; that is exactly what this is except the mapping is faster and more accurate). When that fails (sometimes netmeeting is unreliable) I rely on a back up mapping system: a pre-made pdf file that contains small, detailed mapped areas containing one image per page with a reference number at the top of each page. When this method is used I prompt the players to open the document and "con+F+(insert reference number here)". This requires a lot of trust from the players since they should not look at anything in the file until prompted. It also requires some pre-game preparation from the DM who must create and distribute the file. A grid system can be used to indicate PC/NPC positions on the map.

Map making programs- A few good ones that I use are Dungeon Crafter (discontinued freeware that can still be found here. A helpful guide can be found here) and Campaign Cartographer. Photoshop/paintshop are used mainly for enhancement rather than for map creation.

Graphics- I use the same method for revealing graphics as I do mapping: I copy-paste images to whiteboard or I give a file reference and prompt players to access a specific page. A little eye candy can enhance the mood of the game but try not to overdo it.

To give you an idea of what can be done in a 3 hour session I will cite some examples:
The average 3 hour session in my game allows a 4-5 person party to thoroughly investigate 2 dungeon rooms. This includes a bit of OOC socializing, a brief recap, dealing with encounters (traps, riddles/puzzles, NPC's and monsters) and role playing. A newly formed 6 person group of strangers can be introducted to each other to form a party in about 1 1/2 sessions. A party of 4 PC's and 1 NPC can spend an entire session role playing while less than an hour has passed in game time.

The once per week sessions allows the DM to create intriguing puzzles and riddles for the players to dwell on until the next game. The break between games also gives the DM ample time to work on the adventure, adding more detail to an area or changing it all together. I tend to keep a rough outline of an entire adventure and flesh out areas as the players gravitate toward them. I want the game to be guided by a purpose that is driven by a storyline, but I also want the characters to have the freedom to add a bit of spontaneity to the game. A collection of generic maps (interior tavern/inn layouts and random "treasure" maps), prepared random encounters (include portraits, stats and as much detailed info required to keep the game rolling without a hitch) and detailed sub-scenarios filled with interesting and helpful NPC's (I tend to use NPC's to steer the PC's back on track when necessary so they are my "little helpers") will allow the DM to improvise on the fly.

I am sure I left out a lot of things that I do and take for granted that would be helpful, but I think this is sufficient for now. Good luck with your adventures!

[pakman]

I'd be interested in doing the online deal. However, I will not be available until I get back to school in August. I could start rolling up a few characters as ideas are already coming to mind.

[Wyrm]

Was it fun? I've heard of those before, but never got into them. I think I tried a PBM (or email rather) version and found it entirely boring. I believe the live chat ones feature die rollers and everything, correct? I wouldn't mind giving it a whirl, although nothing can replace ye old pen-and-paper, IMO.

To add a bit to what Xui said: they can be loads of fun. We used an AIM chatroom to play the game, which worked out well because of the in-chat dice roller, and the DM would change his text color to indicate different speakers and had a black text background color for official DM announcements. Also, to differentiate actions, character speech, and out-of-character speech, we all used a simple method of ooc speech going in parenthases, in character speech going in quotes, and actions (stuff like saying where you're going, etc.) with no added punctuation, or using an asterice for an emote-type action. I tried this on a message board once and it just failed miserably, you really need to have real-time communication with people for it to go anywhere.

Our DM at the time was really laid back in what he allowed characters to have with the only real restrictions going to resurrection spells and stuff like that. We used prestige classes, feats, etc. from this place, although there were a lot more optional additions before 3.5 came out; some people were even using prestige classes of their own making/design. Thanks to him I was able to find out that while a half-dragon bard may be fun to play, it's not really all that useful (although it was pretty fun having a strength score of 26).

I still have our old logs and can post 1 or 2 if you want to see what the typical session is like.

Sometimes I make secret rolls for the characters just as I would in a real life game

Heh, I remember that every time the DM would roll a 100 sided die in chat without explaining it we'd all get paranoid and try to figure out who'd be getting smacked with something next.

The main reason for sticking with older editions of ADnD is my familiarity of the old system as well as the 20 or so years of customized background material that I refuse to waste my time converting to a system that fails to impress me.

The big thing that I like about 3e (and now 3.5e) is the d20 system, which makes it so much easier for people to learn the rules and get going, without dragging down the people who are already veterans of D&D.

I allow my players to use real dice and post their rolls in channel.

I always found it fun to see what other people were rolling. Not necessary, but fun, and it made it easier to laugh at people who were having bad nights with rolls.

Anyways... since there are already 4 of us showing interest in this, should we start moving forward with it? All we really need to decide on would be the meeting time, communication software to be used, and who the DM will be, with DM being the biggie. I've never DMed before but I'm willing to try just about anything (within reason); right now, the off-the-top-of-my-head time where I don't have anything to do and don't foresee myself planning anything for is Saturday around 8 or 9 PM EST; my preferred chat method is AIM since that's what I'm already familiar with, but if there's a command/bot for IRC that will do dice rolling, that's easily doable.

[kandrathe]

Awesome work. I saved off a copy for another day when I find a live dice rolling rpg group again.

[Taem]

Anyways... since there are already 4 of us showing interest in this, should we start moving forward with it? All we really need to decide on would be the meeting time, communication software to be used, and who the DM will be, with DM being the biggie. I've never DMed before but I'm willing to try just about anything (within reason); right now, the off-the-top-of-my-head time where I don't have anything to do and don't foresee myself planning anything for is Saturday around 8 or 9 PM EST; my preferred chat method is AIM since that's what I'm already familiar with, but if there's a command/bot for IRC that will do dice rolling, that's easily doable.

I wouldn't feel comfortable DM'ing without knowing the system fully yet. That would be like riding a bike blindfolded! Here's what I gather so far;

SYSTEM: AD&D 2nd Edition (with a mix of house rules/net books)
MEDIUM: AIM, ICQ, MSN IM, (Trillian for all these plus more); I prefer MSN IM personally
TIME: For me, would have to be after 8:00-PM (UTC/GMT -8 hours : Pacific Daylight Time)

I would also like to use dice rollers that everyone can see. The DM can still always roll his own "secret" rolls. This is just my opinion however, and I feel that the DM should get to pick the medium and rather he/she would like to use dice or not.

[pakman]

I wouldn't feel comfortable DM'ing without knowing the system fully yet. That would be like riding a bike blindfolded! Here's what I gather so far;

SYSTEM: AD&D 2nd Edition (with a mix of house rules/net books)
MEDIUM: AIM, ICQ, MSN IM, (Trillian for all these plus more); I prefer MSN IM personally
TIME: For me, would have to be after 8:00-PM (UTC/GMT -8 hours : Pacific Daylight Time)

I would also like to use dice rollers that everyone can see. The DM can still always roll his own "secret" rolls. This is just my opinion however, and I feel that the DM should get to pick the medium and rather he/she would like to use dice or not.

I am not familiar with the 2nd Ed. ruleset as I only started to RP with 3rd Ed. Maybe I'll go look for a used book on Amazon, it should be pretty cheap (hopefully).

The time that owuld work for me would also be after 8:00PM PST because that is after 5:00 EST which is where I will be. Tuesday and Thursday nights would be better because I have no classes on those days as of right now on my schedule. This gives me time to work on homework during the day. However, projects are inevitably going to come up and I can already say that I might miss a few sessions if this gets off the ground.

As for clients I ama comfortable with pretty much anything. Maybe even IRC would work. Maybe even in the LL IRC room (with permission, of course)?

[Xiuhcoatl]

I wouldn't feel comfortable DM'ing without knowing the system fully yet. That would be like riding a bike blindfolded! Here's what I gather so far;

SYSTEM: AD&D 2nd Edition (with a mix of house rules/net books)
MEDIUM: AIM, ICQ, MSN IM, (Trillian for all these plus more); I prefer MSN IM personally
TIME: For me, would have to be after 8:00-PM (UTC/GMT -8 hours : Pacific Daylight Time)

I would also like to use dice rollers that everyone can see. The DM can still always roll his own "secret" rolls. This is just my opinion however, and I feel that the DM should get to pick the medium and rather he/she would like to use dice or not.

Here are a few more tips:
The only person who needs to be very familiar with the rules is the DM. Players who have used other game systems, even those that are not any version of DnD, will pick up the rules easily. Most people might not realize that they have been exposed to 2nd Ed ADnD rules through Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 (an other pre-NWN ADnD based crpgs) and are more familiar with 2nd Ed than they believe. The only required reading for a player is the Player's Handbook (PHB).

A handy tool for the DM is a copy of Core Rules 2e (on cd). It has all of the 2nd Ed core books as well as many supplementary books (class/race handbooks and option books for spells, high level adventures etc). It is out of print but I've seen it on e-bay and offered through a few online stores.

The fastest way for players to learn the rules is to jump into a game and start playing. This might sound odd, but as in RL pnp games it is true. I had one player who was a compete noob and he did fine. After a few sessions and browsing through the PHB he blended into the group. Of course, having some veteran players as role models helps too.

The chat should be conducted in a private channel. You do not want to bother or be bothered with the scrolling text from people who are not in your game. Eventhough I post all game transcipts on my forum, I advise all participants to keep a log of the chat.

The DM should have a majority of a "module sized" adventure finished before starting the game. This allows the DM to fine tune the online game. This is important at the beginning when everyone is still learning the ropes and being introduced to online role playing, new rules, characters and unexpected obstacles.

Background information leading into the adventure should be distributed to all players prior to the game. A forum or website is handy for this task but e-mail works too. For my current game, I wrote a short story and several pages of background and history. Something less ambitious such as a few paragraphs of background info is adequate especially if you are using a well publicized game setting (such as Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Dragonlance).

If you have any questions, feel free to PM them to me as I do not often check this forum.
Xi

[Wyrm]

I am not familiar with the 2nd Ed. ruleset as I only started to RP with 3rd Ed.

Same here, I'm willing to learn a new system, but the only one I've had actual experience with in an RP situation is 3e.

The time that owuld work for me would also be after 8:00PM PST because that is after 5:00 EST

Was that backwards or did you really mean after 8 PST (meaning 11 EST)? Starting at 11 EST wouldn't be a problem for me, but I'd just like to make sure since 5 PST is 8 EST and I was a little confused.

Tuesday and Thursday nights would be better

Of those 2, Thursday would be better for me, RB uses Tuesday nights for a team variant in Guild Wars so I'm already committed then. We usually end around 11:30 PM EST.

MEDIUM: AIM, ICQ, MSN IM, (Trillian for all these plus more); I prefer MSN IM personally

I've also got Trillian, but only have AIM and IRC hooked up to it, and to be honest I'd really rather not use MSN, so maybe IRC is the way to go.

Most people might not realize that they have been exposed to 2nd Ed ADnD rules through Baldur's Gate 1 & 2

Heh, I played about 5 min of BG1, so I don't think that counts somehow. Is it just me or do pnp rules for combat not really transfer over to video games well? RPing and being in a couple fights per week (game time) isn't quite the same as the constant combat you're exposed to in a game.

[Urza-DSF]

SYSTEM: AD&D 2nd Edition (with a mix of house rules/net books)
MEDIUM: AIM, ICQ, MSN IM, (Trillian for all these plus more); I prefer MSN IM personally
TIME: For me, would have to be after 8:00-PM (UTC/GMT -8 hours : Pacific Daylight Time)

I would also like to use dice rollers that everyone can see. The DM can still always roll his own "secret" rolls. This is just my opinion however, and I feel that the DM should get to pick the medium and rather he/she would like to use dice or not.

System: Sounds fine by me, I'm decent with 2e though I still feel some of the systems used are wonky

Medium: Any are fine, though AIM does allow for in-system die rolling

Time: Heres my only problem: I work Monday - Friday from 9:30 PM EST till ~4:00-5:00 AM EST, so if our times fall before then things should be fine, otherwise I'm out by default.

Other than that... lemme know^_^

[pakman]

Was that backwards or did you really mean after 8 PST (meaning 11 EST)? Starting at 11 EST wouldn't be a problem for me, but I'd just like to make sure since 5 PST is 8 EST and I was a little confused.

Whoops, I did get that backwards. I meant 5:00pm PST. that would be between 7 and 8pm EST depending if it's spring or fall. I can never remember how far behind the Pacific is.