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Quote:You realize Occhi that is costs more to try to kill someone that it does to put them away for life? Life without Parole means you get one appeal unless evidence comes up that proves your innocence. With putting someone on death row, they end up costing tax payers more money over the course of 15 to 20 years (pretty standard for the time spent on death row) because they have many more appeals and can appeal on grounds that they wouldn't get if they were put away for life.
So if you're going to bring in economics into this, it's cheaper to put them away for life than it is to kill them.
The system is broken for just the reason you cite. It isn't more expensive if you don't leave them on death row forever. But let's not open that can of worms, we've been through the whole thing before. Neither of us will likely change our view on that angle. You presume that element of the system can't be changed, I believe it can and should . . . and we are both likely wrong for different reasons! :blink:
Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
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About...
Quote:This is what I mean about liberals. It's all about you, first and foremost. All your values are f....d up.
Edit: Yes, I know that this *is* an "effing parent" type of answer. You got a problem with that?
-A
And, from above...
Quote:Ok, that is a very big difference between conservatives and liberals. Accountability vs. excuses.
I'm gonna have to call *ull*hit on that. Just because a person believes that all psychotic people should not be put automatically through a wood chipper when they skip the Haldol and act all homicidal does not make them a pinko commie liberal.
”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.
![[Image: yVR5oE.png]](http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/329/yVR5oE.png) ![[Image: VKQ0KLG.png]](http://i.imgur.com/VKQ0KLG.png)
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Quote:Call me heartless if you like. Some people just need killing.
Occhi
When I say that here on the Lounge, people insult me, put me down, and tell me to stop making death penalty posts...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it aint true.
Some people just need killing.
Like that #$%&wit here in my state that built a dungeon under his trailer park home and abducted those girls. Or the got-damn repeat offenders that keep molesting kids and getting away with it, especially after they have been put away once or thrice where "they will never be a threat to society ever again" but get out back on the street due to budget cuts or overpopulation catch and release policies.
And while we are killing these people, for the love of hominy grits, please, do it in public.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
Posts: 7,955
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Joined: Feb 2003
08-03-2006, 04:59 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2006, 04:59 AM by kandrathe.)
Quote:When I say that here on the Lounge, people insult me, put me down, and tell me to stop making death penalty posts...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it aint true.
Some people just need killing.
Like that #$%&wit here in my state that built a dungeon under his trailer park home and abducted those girls. Or the got-damn repeat offenders that keep molesting kids and getting away with it, especially after they have been put away once or thrice where "they will never be a threat to society ever again" but get out back on the street due to budget cuts or overpopulation catch and release policies.
And while we are killing these people, for the love of hominy grits, please, do it in public.
Doc! Please stop making these Death Penalty threads!
:D
My problem with the " Some people just need killing." position, is who chooses and when do you stop? We could rewind the clock 2000 years and bring back all the good old Roman Empire persecutions to keep the masses cowed and under control.
”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.
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Quote:Doc! Please stop making these Death Penalty threads!
:D
My problem with the "Some people just need killing." position, is who chooses and when do you stop? We could rewind the clock 2000 years and bring back all the good old Roman Empire persecutions to keep the masses cowed and under control.
Indeed Kandrathe.
Doc, we say you have to stop making these threads because you don't read anyway what we have to say about it.
If you give those cases you just mentioned, I think we can all agree that such a person does not deserve to live for numbers of reason. I even would agree with the let's call it euthanasia of this Andrea Yates.
The fact is that there is not just those single cases. If we would always have complete truth, 100 % security that someone is guilty or innocent, sane or insane etc. this would be far more easy.....but we don't. And I know the bad feeling it gives you (a person) when you see such a sadist person commit a hideous crime, and is not sentenced to death. But we all know that there are many innocent people on death row, and already put to death. We also know that in a lot of countries people get a lable, so that they can be put away in some mental institute or prison (while actually they are just political opponents). Your country uses the term terrorist for that, and some years ago communist, and before that negroes.
If there is one thing worse than terrible crimes commited by people, and because of law and being a civilized country they cannot have their rightfull punishment, and that is a government that can decide this to easily...and you know it will happen.
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08-03-2006, 01:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2006, 01:12 PM by Occhidiangela.)
Quote:My problem with the "Some people just need killing." position, is who chooses and when do you stop?
Me.
We stop when the pigs can't eat any more chopped up flesh of the duly executed.
Problem solved, and a better profit for pig farmers whose pigs get fatter before the slaughter. :lol: Next question?
Oh, right, what do I do about mad pig disease, the spongiform brain ailment that would likely be passed from pigs to humans, etc? Send food to the UN in sausage form, to distribute to starving masses in ________(Insert Basket Case Nation State Here) . So, you wanna starve, or are you willing to risk a one in a few million chance you only live ten more years with a brain problem?
You make the call, but "Bless 'Em All."
If some day it may happen
That a victim must be found
I've got a little list
I've got a little list
Of society's offenders
Who might well be underground
And who never would be missed
Who never would be missed . . .
(Koko, The Mikado, Gilbert and Sullivan)
Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
Posts: 1,155
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Joined: Oct 2004
Quote:No, I was testing you to see if you could really believe your own comments about Self control. I knew the right answer here, I wanted to be sure that even you knew the right answer and would come to a point where you have to throw self control out the window. That is the point I was making and what makes us Human. We know that we should control ourselves, but there are times where stimuli dictate that we take action based on urges.
Maybe you're now a little closer to understanding that self control can't always be maintained for whatever reason, be it the circumstances of the moment, a chemical imbalance, or some other issue. Humanity, also has to work on instinct at times and those instincts combined with our ability to rationalize situations is what makes us Human. Sometimes the wires get crossed and strange things happen and rationality and insticts go by the road side, but it does happen and we can only hope that it doesn't happen to us.
There's a world of difference as far as self-control in not eating, and self-control in KILLING YOUR OWN KIDS. If this female (and I am using that term to describe here, as she is definately not a woman) was institutionalized and broke out to go kill her kids, then I could see how she is a complete psycho case and really should just be put back in. However, that is not the case. This is an individual who was living among us. She was normal enough to have a husband and to function in our society. She is normal enough to face real punishment.
If someone has a "moment", that does not give them a carte blanche to do whatever. Some things are understandable, but there's a limit.
-A
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08-03-2006, 01:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2006, 04:13 PM by Ashock.)
Quote:About...
And, from above...
I'm gonna have to call *ull*hit on that. Just because a person believes that all psychotic people should not be put automatically through a wood chipper when they skip the Haldol and act all homicidal does not make them a pinko commie liberal.
You should be right, shouldn't you? Let's take a poll as to who in this thread is a liberal and who is a conservative. Let's then look at their responses here. Oh and from reading Lissa's posts from before, I know he's a liberal anyway.
-A
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Quote:You're should be right, shouldn't you? Let's take a poll as to who in this thread is a liberal and who is a conservative. Let's then look at their responses here. Oh and from reading Lissa's posts from before, I know he's a liberal anyway.
-A
And some of us reject either label. I am starting to trend populist, in the Perot and Andrew Jackson sense. That means a sorta Libertarian who holds the diverse and disunited Libertarian movement in mild contempt.
There is a role for government, and it's not going to be perfect. Get over it, Libertarians. It how much, and how, not whether or not.
Also, Ashock, Liberal in what sense? Conservative in what sense? Neo conservatives seem to spend a whole lot of other people's money, just like old school LBJ Liberals.
Their kids probably go to the same private schools. :whistling:
Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
Posts: 1,155
Threads: 57
Joined: Oct 2004
Quote:And some of us reject either label. I am starting to trend populist, in the Perot and Andrew Jackson sense. That means a sorta Libertarian who holds the diverse and disunited Libertarian movement in mild contempt.
There is a role for government, and it's not going to be perfect. Get over it, Libertarians. It how much, and how, not whether or not.
Also, Ashock, Liberal in what sense? Conservative in what sense? Neo conservatives seem to spend a whole lot of other people's money, just like old school LBJ Liberals.
Their kids probably go to the same private schools. :whistling:
Occhi
By "liberal" I do not mean a liberal from 40 years ago. I mean "liberal" from how leftists describe themselves today. You know, the Berkeley type when it comes to social issues and foreign policy. With my mentality (and not just mine, I know) I probably would have been described as liberal, 40-50 years ago. However, I'm talking about today, not yesterday. It is sad to see that we no longer have a good option to vote for. The Republican party is going way too right and the Democratic party, way too left. The way I look at it though, is that the Republican party is not a good option, but the Democratic party is not a viable option at all. Voting Libertarian is throwing your vote away completely. It's just a question of voting for the lesser of two evils.
-A
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Joined: Feb 2003
08-03-2006, 01:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2006, 01:58 PM by kandrathe.)
Quote:There's a world of difference as far as self-control in not eating, and self-control in KILLING YOUR OWN KIDS. If this female (and I am using that term to describe here, as she is definately not a woman) was institutionalized and broke out to go kill her kids, then I could see how she is a complete psycho case and really should just be put back in. However, that is not the case. This is an individual who was living among us. She was normal enough to have a husband and to function in our society. She is normal enough to face real punishment.
If someone has a "moment", that does not give them a carte blanche to do whatever. Some things are understandable, but there's a limit.
-A
She was abnormal enough to be prescribed anti-psychotic medication which helped her return to near normal behavior. When she became pregnant again at her husbands urging she had to stop taking that medication for fear it would affect the new babies developing brain. It's never a good thing when a known psychotic person goes off their medication and are not being actively observed in a psychiatric ward.
Her husband, and our society should have done a better job in protecting her children from a known psychotic who was off her medication.
Like I said above... People who are psychotic will sometimes do very violent and irrational things for the craziest notions. They are typically delusional, suffer grandiosity, and a clear break with reality. In their messed up brain wiring it would be perfectly acceptable to kill all the people in a town because the TV told them to do it. I met a guy on suicide watch once who believed that the reason he was compelled to do evil things was because Satan had cleaved him in two with a demon blade and touched his heart. He believed his only recourse now was to kill himself by plunging a purified dagger into his unclean heart.
Read this for some insight into brain function and psychosis.
But, as Lissa presented... There may be hope and treatments for people that exhibit psychotic or schizoprenic behaviors as we begin to understand brain and endocrine function more completely. This doesn't make him a bleeding heart liberal, but a person who is willing to look the facts in enough detail to take a measured opinion. The Yates case is a very sad situation for everyone involved in it and exemplifies how broken our society is at times. Her husband, her doctors, her other relatives should have had her committed.
Essentially, I feel you are making the case that anyone who is broken (to the point of being a threat) should be thrown away. Society therefore doesn't have the time or money to try to fix anyone deemed to be dangerous, so if someone exhibits a scary defect it would be better to get rid of them. There are about 2.2 to 3 million Americans who exhibit psychotic symptoms according to the NIMH. How many should we kill?
I think Doc is scary, and I know he would agree with me.
”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.
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08-03-2006, 03:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2006, 03:48 PM by Ashock.)
Quote:There are about 2.2 to 3 million Americans who exhibit psychotic symptoms according to the NIMH. How many should we kill?
Almost as many as have killed others and all of the ones that have killed kids, especially their own. It is not my desire to kill people who have psychological problems. It is to eradicate those that have turned those problems into a killing spree. If there was a Hell, there would would be a special place in it for child killers, no matter what the circumstances were (barring accidents of course, for those who are waiting to play mind games with me). I bet many mass murderers in the past were not without their own mental problems. Should we not have executed them, or at least put them in jail for life? Is Charles Manson normal? Was Jeffrey Daumer?
Since I do not believe in either heaven or hell, justice needs ot be administered here.
As far as Lissa, I do not base my assessment of him as a liberal only from what I've read in this thread. It goes back much farther than that. I'm not saying this as though it's an insult. It's just fact.
-A
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Joined: May 2003
I am neither right wing or left wing.
I am a Federalist. A government of the people, for the people, by the people. Due democratic process.
As far as the folk who need killing...
When there is no doubt in the world that they did it... I mean no shadow of a doubt at all, a dimes worth of lead should be deposited in their skull. And only for some crimes. If you go in a store, rob it, shoot the store clerk, and your face is caught on film, you're dead. Bang. If you go out and molest kids, and keep doing it, or if you construct a dungeon under your trailer park home and snatch little girls, you're dead. If you go off on a spree and rape and kill a bunch of people, you're dead.
And if you keep repeatedly beating the crap out of your wife and your kids, you should be locked up in the stocks and every woman that has been battered in town should be informed of your location so they can come and beat the tar out of you. You get to be humiliated, and they get to become empowered and face their fear. See, everybody wins.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
Posts: 1,991
Threads: 103
Joined: May 2003
Quote:I think Doc is scary, and I know he would agree with me.
I most certainly am not. I am a pacifist and believe in the preservation of human life.
Even of course if this means removing threats to human lives for the sake of the greater good. If it costs one life to keep many other lives in safety and peace, so be it. Small price to pay.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
Posts: 624
Threads: 20
Joined: Feb 2003
Quote:I most certainly am not. I am a pacifist and believe in the preservation of human life.
Even of course if this means removing threats to human lives for the sake of the greater good. If it costs one life to keep many other lives in safety and peace, so be it. Small price to pay.
:blink:
Somehow, given your extremes of profanity and recommendations for Social Revolution, "pacifist" wasn't the first term that sprang to mind. Isn't it interesting how we view ourselves despite all indications to the contrary.
Garnered Wisdom --
If it has more than four legs, kill it immediately.
Never hesitate to put another bullet into the skull of the movie's main villain; it'll save time on the denouement.
Eight hours per day of children's TV programming can reduce a grown man to tears -- PM me for details.
Posts: 1,991
Threads: 103
Joined: May 2003
Quote::blink:
Somehow, given your extremes of profanity and recommendations for Social Revolution, "pacifist" wasn't the first term that sprang to mind. Isn't it interesting how we view ourselves despite all indications to the contrary.
I am a strong advocate of non violent protest. And in conflict I will do very very little to defend my self. I'll take a beating and keep asking for somebody to stike me. And I will keep getting up for as long as I am able.
However, my pacifist views change a bit due to circumstances. Women and children for example, I will most certainly rise up and bust skulls should danger come to them, or somebody truly incapable of defending themselves. And violence is only allowed to to the point of incompacitating a body... After that, I lecture them quite sternly on why I had to hurt them, and why they shouldn't do that. And give an honest apology for breaking whatever bones I just broke.
Profanity has nothing to do with being pacifist. That is just silly. As for social revolution, Ghandi and Martin Luther King both had views on social revolution and were both pacifists, both believed in non violent protest. Do nothing to defend your self, defend others only if you have to. I know exactly what I am, and I think you need to look up what the word pacifist means.
I believe strongly in social revolution but only through non violent protest. Lock arms, sing, and make your self a serious pain in the ass that just wont go away. I believe that kind acts and good deeds will go farther for social change than molotov cocktails and bricks.I believe that giving people food, offering shelter, and getting your hands dirty does more to further a cause than violent rioting. I believe that planting a community garden, fixing up a park, or otherwise making community improvements is far better than burning down buildings or looting stores. The system wants violent protests... It breeds what it needs for violence in the ghettos and the slums... It puts all of the right elements in place, like cheap booze and guns and what not, and repressed masses, and then moves in to crush them as an example for everybody else should they get the chance. The only true way to combat this is to lure people out of the system and make community improvements and teach them right from wrong, and offer them a choice, something other than peddling their own ass or selling crack on the corner. Violence is what the system wants, and it should not have it.
There are times though when violence is the only solution. One should not be such a fool as to deny this.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
Posts: 624
Threads: 20
Joined: Feb 2003
Quote:I am a strong advocate of non violent protest. And in conflict I will do very very little to defend my self. I'll take a beating and keep asking for somebody to stike me. And I will keep getting up for as long as I am able.
However, my pacifist views change a bit due to circumstances. Women and children for example, I will most certainly rise up and bust skulls should danger come to them, or somebody truly incapable of defending themselves. And violence is only allowed to to the point of incompacitating a body... After that, I lecture them quite sternly on why I had to hurt them, and why they shouldn't do that. And give an honest apology for breaking whatever bones I just broke.
So, you're a pacifist until you determine you're not a pacifist. Interesting.
Quote: Profanity has nothing to do with being pacifist. That is just silly.
My error -- I associate profanity with aggression. Perhaps it's because the majority of your posts feature both profanity and aggression so intricately interlocked that I became confused on your claim to have a calm demeanor.
Quote:As for social revolution, Ghandi and Martin Luther King both had views on social revolution and were both pacifists, both believed in non violent protest. Do nothing to defend your self, defend others only if you have to. I know exactly what I am, and I think you need to look up what the word pacifist means.
pacifist
adj : opposed to war [syn: pacifist(a), pacifistic, dovish] n : someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes [syn: pacificist, disarmer]
I don't see any reference to a threshold whereupon asses are to be kicked. Perhaps you might need to look up what the word hypocrite means.
Quote:There are times though when violence is the only solution. One should not be such a fool as to deny this.
I find it remarkable you can foreward Ghandi as a reference and put this statement as your conclusion. It shows a dexterity of mind that borders on schism.
Garnered Wisdom --
If it has more than four legs, kill it immediately.
Never hesitate to put another bullet into the skull of the movie's main villain; it'll save time on the denouement.
Eight hours per day of children's TV programming can reduce a grown man to tears -- PM me for details.
Posts: 1,991
Threads: 103
Joined: May 2003
Quote:So, you're a pacifist until you determine you're not a pacifist. Interesting.
My error -- I associate profanity with aggression. Perhaps it's because the majority of your posts feature both profanity and aggression so intricately interlocked that I became confused on your claim to have a calm demeanor.
pacifist
adj : opposed to war [syn: pacifist(a), pacifistic, dovish] n : someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes [syn: pacificist, disarmer]
I don't see any reference to a threshold whereupon asses are to be kicked. Perhaps you might need to look up what the word hypocrite means.
I find it remarkable you can foreward Ghandi as a reference and put this statement as your conclusion. It shows a dexterity of mind that borders on schism.
Bull crap.
"Among the many misdeeds of the British Empire in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." Ghandi.
Even he understood that polite non violent protest and negotation could fail, and from there on, there was only revolution. Bloodshed. But only as a last resort. He understood the need for arms, guns, weaponry to empower the masses. He didn't like them, but he understood the need to have them, and if need be, use them. Is that a schism or reason? Ghandi was also a firm believer that an armed society is a polite society.
And reread your own quote about pacifism... That word, disarmer. To disarm. To disable. To put down and remove a threat.
Even the Dalai Lama, a DEVOUT pacifist says it is entirely reasonable to kill somebody in defense of your own life, provided that they are trying to kill you. But if they are only trying to hurt you, you should do nothing. Again, schism or reason? Would you call him a hypocrite too? What about Ghandi?
The dexterity of your mind needs a bit of a work out.
All alone, or in twos,
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall.
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts and artists
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.
"Isn't this where...."
Posts: 182
Threads: 3
Joined: Jun 2006
Quote:I am a Federalist. A government of the people, for the people, by the people. Due democratic process.
Well, we have the of the people, though just barely. For the people may have been in place at some point. By the people is most certainly extinct, if it ever existed in the first place. Gotta love that electoral college.
Although sometimes I look at Dubya and think he is furthering our governmental cause. We need to hit upon either a tyrant or anarchy (and he's somehow flirting with both) to realize what we had (and lost). No, the US isn't that bad compared to a good chunk of the rest of the world, but our system of government is hardly ideal with all of the lobbying, the incumbency rate, and whatnot. I guess it has to be actively screwing up peoples' lives for them to want to do something about it, and we're not quite that far yet. Most of us aren't.
--me, attempting to kill the death penalty
Posts: 7,955
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Quote:The dexterity of your mind needs a bit of a work out.
:-) Chuck Norris taught me to be a pacifist. If someone gets out of line, I pacify them with a roundhouse kick to the head.
”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.
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