Andrea Yates verdict - huh?

[gekko]

Personally, I think that they (and medical professionals in general) invent diseases not necessarily for that, but mainly because they do not want to admit that they know very little about what really makes us tick, physically and even more psychologically. This makes them sound more important, initially only to themselves, but with enough exposure to everyone around them.
-A

That's called trial and error. And it's not merely medical proffessionals that do this, it's all scientists. It is, in fact, the entire basis of the scientific process. You see, we don't really understand all that much about light. So scientists make up equations and theories based on what they do know - and what they suspect. Then they test their theories and see how good their guesses were. And they make adjustments and start over.

They do this because they understand that we really have very little idea about how many things work. And even when they have an equation that seems to explain how something works, it doesn't neccessarily cover all the bases. So we can use fairly simple equations to determine pretty accurately how things like velocity, acceleration and displacement work, but when the speeds approach the speed of light, the normal equations have to be abandoned.

Medial science works in the same way, except that experimenting can cost lives. Mental science does too, except that experimenting on mental patients is generally not an acceptable practice. So the uncertainty factor, present in all science, is a little more obvious in areas regarding mental health. That doesn't mean all the mental diseases we "know" about are junk. It just means we don't know everything yet.

There are certainly psychiatrists who practice junk science, who are more interested in dollars than in anyone's health. But that kind of claim can be made of people in any and every proffession.

gekko

[Lissa]

PPP and PPD are two seperate issues. are you implying that their numbers on PPP are lower than you've read elsewhere? PPD is the more common and less drastic disorder so obviously it would afflict more individuals than PPP.

Adding a little statistics to this after thinking a little about 1 to 2 per 1000 mothers being afflicted with 4% of PPP mothers commiting suicide and 5% of PPP mothers commiting infantcide.

Let's look at the US. There are around 280 Million people living in the US. Of those 280 Million, 52% are Female (so 145.6 Million). Let's say that 1% of those Females had children last year, this means that 1,456,000 females are new mothers in the last year. Of those 1,456,000 mothers, 1456 to 2912 were diagnosed with PPP, let's for sake of arguement average that out to 2184 (about 1.5 mothers per 1000). Now, if we take the 4% commited suicide after having their child, that would mean that 87 mothers commited suicide and 109 mothers commited infantcide.

Given the occurance of news items about this kind of thing, the numbers that both myself and Griselda saw do match up very closely. Given, my above example may be off, but it does illustrate that the numbers listed aren't that far off the mark.

[Occhidiangela]

A very bold statement. I think physically they know really a lot. And the rate in which new things about our physical en psychological state are discovered is immense. I am of the opinion that especially in the western countries a lot is known.

If you blame them for not knowing everything....well...can be..but doesn't make sense to do.

@occhi......I would pay thousands of euros to get a shrinck to make me sane again

I don't think a shrink can make you sane, but some can help you better manage your brand of insanity. That's how it works for me. :lol:

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

You did get my check, right?
-A

Yes, but when I tried to cash it I was told that a River Bank was not a financial institution, and wasn't founded by Michael Flatley. <_< So, my viral income generating campaign experiences another setback.

Occhi

[Ashock]

A very bold statement. I think physically they know really a lot. And the rate in which new things about our physical en psychological state are discovered is immense. I am of the opinion that especially in the western countries a lot is known.

If you blame them for not knowing everything....well...can be..but doesn't make sense to do.

Well, it was nothing more than personal opinion, as I said "personally". Of course getting extra government grants plays a role in it too. As far as "knowing", I think that it is as much "guessing" as "knowing". After Freud came out with his "discoveries", we also supposedly knew everything too.


-A

[Ashock]

I tend to check multiple sources to co-oberate the information I find. In the case of PPD and PPP, all the sites I read, and none linked to the others, had essentially the same information. Some covered it more in depth than others.

The fact is, to make a truly informed opinion you have to do research. From looking at the general attitudes and opinions on this topic, few people have bothered to actually research the issue at hand and the root causes.

So, I suggest again to you and others, go out and do some research on this before spouting off an opinion that shows that you are uninformed. An informed opinion always trumps an uninformed opinion, and simply, most the posters in this thread are making uninformed opinions.

Let's say you're right for the sake of argument. Does that mean that just like animals, we just give in to our urges and emotions? We are not capable of controlling them at all, if they are strong enough? What's the difference then, between this case and let's say Jeffrey Daumer? Should he have been also put in a psycho ward, since obviously he was far from normal also? There's often a reason as to why people do unspeakable things, a reason for those people to have become like they are. Molestation during childhood, some other type of trauma, etc etc etc. Many people go through something very tough in their life and it often leaves them not exactly perfectly fine. Many are born or acquire some sort of psychosis. Only a few of them go on to do something that destroys the lives of others. I attribute that to a lack of self-control and general worthlessness as human beings on the part of the latter. You attribute it to a medical condition. Ok, that is a very big difference between conservatives and liberals. Accountability vs. excuses.


-A

[SwissMercenary]

Let's say you're right for the sake of argument. Does that mean that just like animals, we just give in to our urges and emotions? We are not capable of controlling them at all, if they are strong enough? What's the difference then, between this case and let's say Jeffrey Daumer? Should he have been also put in a psycho ward, since obviously he was far from normal also? There's often a reason as to why people do unspeakable things, a reason for those people to have become like they are. Molestation during childhood, some other type of trauma, etc etc etc. Many people go through something very tough in their life and it often leaves them not exactly perfectly fine. Many are born or acquire some sort of psychosis. Only a few of them go on to do something that destroys the lives of others. I attribute that to a lack of self-control and general worthlessness as human beings on the part of the latter. You attribute it to a medical condition. Ok, that is a very big difference between conservatives and liberals. Accountability vs. excuses.
-A

So, you still hold to your opinion that mental disorders are less real then physical health problems. (See - Pete's schoolbus).

[Ashock]

So, you still hold to your opinion that mental disorders are less real then physical health problems. (See - Pete's schoolbus).

Mental disorders are more of a grey area than physical ones. We're relying as much on guesswork as we do on facts, simply because out of all of our organs, we know the least about the human brain.

Wait a sec. Didn't I put you on my /ignore list?

Fixed.


-A

[Lissa]

Let's say you're right for the sake of argument. Does that mean that just like animals, we just give in to our urges and emotions? We are not capable of controlling them at all, if they are strong enough? What's the difference then, between this case and let's say Jeffrey Daumer? Should he have been also put in a psycho ward, since obviously he was far from normal also? There's often a reason as to why people do unspeakable things, a reason for those people to have become like they are. Molestation during childhood, some other type of trauma, etc etc etc. Many people go through something very tough in their life and it often leaves them not exactly perfectly fine. Many are born or acquire some sort of psychosis. Only a few of them go on to do something that destroys the lives of others. I attribute that to a lack of self-control and general worthlessness as human beings on the part of the latter. You attribute it to a medical condition. Ok, that is a very big difference between conservatives and liberals. Accountability vs. excuses.
-A

Ok, I have a task for you then if you think that urges and emotions are so easy to control. I want you to, starting tomorrow morning when you wake, not eat any food for the next three days, only drink water. See if you can control the urge to eat for 3 days time. See if you can resist the urges your body keeps throwing at you to eat something and see if you're self control can override it. I'm betting that you'll fail that task.

Is it so hard for you to sit down and think that maybe, just maybe, chemical imbalances and/or situations where raw urges and emotions take over can happen? How would you react if one of your children was stuck in a room in your house, the house was on fire, and there was no way for you to get to that child and there was no chance of you saving them (either the child dies or you both die trying to save the child)? I dare you to answer that without saying that you would try and find some way to get to that child and rescue them even if there were no way possible to do so.

To say that people should have self control at all times is both foolish and totally not understanding what it is to be human. We all at one time let our emotions and urges rule us, that is what makes us human, but sanity is what allows us to look back on those times in hindsight and recognize right from wrong in what we did and allow us to act remorsefully for those wrongs we have committed. Sanity is what allows us to have some measure of self control and in the two cases you present, both were cases of insanity as neither Daumer nor Yates could tell right from wrong.

So, I ask you again, go research about PPD and PPP and then come back after you're read over the information from various sites out there.

[Ashock]

Ok, I have a task for you then if you think that urges and emotions are so easy to control. I want you to, starting tomorrow morning when you wake, not eat any food for the next three days, only drink water. See if you can control the urge to eat for 3 days time. See if you can resist the urges your body keeps throwing at you to eat something and see if you're self control can override it. I'm betting that you'll fail that task.

Done it. When I was 15, I realized that I was about 10-15 pounds overweight. I decided to do something about it, as this was having a detrimental effect on my fledgling personal life. So, I decided to do something about it over the course of the summer. I started my regiment by not eating anything for 4 days. The first 2 days were very hard, but after that I got used to it and could have continued if my mother did not basically order me to eat something as she was getting concerned.

Just because it is difficult to control yourself, does not mean it is impossible.
Don't make bets without being reasonably sure you can win them.

You don't have to believe me, naturally. It's a small matter.

-A

[Lissa]

Done it. When I was 15, I realized that I was about 10-15 pounds overweight. I decided to do something about it, as this was having a detrimental effect on my fledgling personal life. So, I decided to do something about it over the course of the summer. I started my regiment by not eating anything for 4 days. The first 2 days were very hard, but after that I got used to it and could have continued if my mother did not basically order me to eat something as she was getting concerned.

Just because it is difficult to control yourself, does not mean it is impossible.
Don't make bets without being reasonably sure you can win them.

You don't have to believe me, naturally. It's a small matter.

-A

What about the other aspects of my post, you seem to totally have ignored those. Tell me, can you control yourself if your child is going to die and there is nothing that you can do about it? You and I both know the answer to that, so quit going on about this self control crap. Tell me that you have never let your emotions get away with you when someone you loved was hurt and you lashed out against the one(s) causing that pain?

Recognize that there is far more going on than your narrow minded view point. An open mind is willing to look around and get the answers, a closed mind is unwilling to budge. Your comments show that you have a closed mind and can't handle it when presented with a chance to learn more about a situtation because it may change your narrowminded view point.

[Ashock]

What about the other aspects of my post, you seem to totally have ignored those. Tell me, can you control yourself if your child is going to die and there is nothing that you can do about it? You and I both know the answer to that, so quit going on about this self control crap. Tell me that you have never let your emotions get away with you when someone you loved was hurt and you lashed out against the one(s) causing that pain?

Recognize that there is far more going on than your narrow minded view point. An open mind is willing to look around and get the answers, a closed mind is unwilling to budge. Your comments show that you have a closed mind and can't handle it when presented with a chance to learn more about a situtation because it may change your narrowminded view point.

Frankly, I did not read the rest of that post, heh. Too lazy. As far as the current question raised (after grudgingly reading the other one more or less fully). C'mon, you're kidding, right? I would not leave the house without my child. If I die, I die. Period. In a RL situation, you could never be 1000% sure that there is not even a .000001% chance that you could save your child. And even if somehow I knew 1000% that nothing could be done, I don't think I would have much desire to leave anyway. See, this is why the human race has evolved to this point. Parents protecting their young and giving them a chance to live at all costs. Most mothers have that instict naturally, most fathers develop it over time. To not only not have that instict, but to have the exact opposite is inhuman.

This is what I mean about liberals. It's all about you, first and foremost. All your values are f....d up.


Edit: Yes, I know that this *is* an "effing parent" type of answer. You got a problem with that?


-A

[Occhidiangela]

Tell me, can you control yourself if your child is going to die and there is nothing that you can do about it?

I sure as hell wouldn't try to cause my child to die by drowning her, or him, in the bathtub, which is what this whole thread is about in the first place.

Drowning not just one, but FIVE, of your own kids, your own flesh and blood, in a bathtub, one after the other, and chasing a few of them around the house when they realized what was going on and tried to flee . . . you see, even children have an instinct for self preservation.

If someone was trying to kill my kids, I am not sure if I'd be in control, or a raving loony, but I know how to swing a stick, bat, or fire a weapon, depending on the tools at hand.

Killing people is not necessarily an act of pure irrationality. It depends on the killer, and on the circumstances. Methodically rounding up your kids to drown them used to be called some very simple words:

Evil, Murder, Manslaughter, Infanticide, Filicide.

Mad dogs are put down, so should Filicidal maniacs.

There, we are back on topic, so let's take this PPD and PPP and PPPark it. :whistling:

Occhi

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Done it. When I was 15, I realized that I was about 10-15 pounds overweight. I decided to do something about it, as this was having a detrimental effect on my fledgling personal life. So, I decided to do something about it over the course of the summer. I started my regiment by not eating anything for 4 days. The first 2 days were very hard, but after that I got used to it and could have continued if my mother did not basically order me to eat something as she was getting concerned.

Just because it is difficult to control yourself, does not mean it is impossible.
Don't make bets without being reasonably sure you can win them.

You don't have to believe me, naturally. It's a small matter.

-A

I'll take the option of disbelief, then -- the witness that you can barely restrain yourself from posting every hour or so would not give me confidence you would have suitable will power in other aspects of your life.

[Occhidiangela]

I'll take the option of disbelief, then -- the witness that you can barely restrain yourself from posting every hour or so would not give me confidence you would have suitable will power in other aspects of your life.

Apples and waffles comparison: there is a different emotional motivation between losing weight for a tangible goal of real value, and impressing (or not) internet denizens.

That internal, emotional attachment to value is what makes all the difference.

Occhi

[Lissa]

Frankly, I did not read the rest of that post, heh. Too lazy. As far as the current question raised (after grudgingly reading the other one more or less fully). C'mon, you're kidding, right? I would not leave the house without my child. If I die, I die. Period. In a RL situation, you could never be 1000% sure that there is not even a .000001% chance that you could save your child. And even if somehow I knew 1000% that nothing could be done, I don't think I would have much desire to leave anyway. See, this is why the human race has evolved to this point. Parents protecting their young and giving them a chance to live at all costs. Most mothers have that instict naturally, most fathers develop it over time. To not only not have that instict, but to have the exact opposite is inhuman.

This is what I mean about liberals. It's all about you, first and foremost. All your values are f....d up.
Edit: Yes, I know that this *is* an "effing parent" type of answer. You got a problem with that?
-A

No, I was testing you to see if you could really believe your own comments about Self control. I knew the right answer here, I wanted to be sure that even you knew the right answer and would come to a point where you have to throw self control out the window. That is the point I was making and what makes us Human. We know that we should control ourselves, but there are times where stimuli dictate that we take action based on urges.

Maybe you're now a little closer to understanding that self control can't always be maintained for whatever reason, be it the circumstances of the moment, a chemical imbalance, or some other issue. Humanity, also has to work on instinct at times and those instincts combined with our ability to rationalize situations is what makes us Human. Sometimes the wires get crossed and strange things happen and rationality and insticts go by the road side, but it does happen and we can only hope that it doesn't happen to us.

[Lissa]

I sure as hell wouldn't try to cause my child to die by drowning her, or him, in the bathtub, which is what this whole thread is about in the first place.

Drowning not just one, but FIVE, of your own kids, your own flesh and blood, in a bathtub, one after the other, and chasing a few of them around the house when they realized what was going on and tried to flee . . . you see, even children have an instinct for self preservation.

If someone was trying to kill my kids, I am not sure if I'd be in control, or a raving loony, but I know how to swing a stick, bat, or fire a weapon, depending on the tools at hand.

Killing people is not necessarily an act of pure irrationality. It depends on the killer, and on the circumstances. Methodically rounding up your kids to drown them used to be called some very simple words:

Evil, Murder, Manslaughter, Infanticide, Filicide.

Mad dogs are put down, so should Filicidal maniacs.

There, we are back on topic, so let's take this PPD and PPP and PPPark it. :whistling:

Occhi

And she was so F'ed in the head that she didn't know right from wrong Occhi. We both know what she did was wrong, but she didn't. That's where all this tragedy comes from, 5 children lost their lives and their mother is so screwed up that she couldn't realize what she was doing was wrong.

The fact of the matter is, she is being put down in a way. She will spend the rest of her life staring at white walls never really seeing the outside world. For all practical purposes she's already dead. She's been removed from society.

Who knows, maybe medicine will find a cure for her and maybe one day she can be productive in society, but I doubt it. Only time will tell if that comes to pass.

[Occhidiangela]

And she was so F'ed in the head that she didn't know right from wrong Occhi. We both know what she did was wrong, but she didn't. That's where all this tragedy comes from, 5 children lost their lives and their mother is so screwed up that she couldn't realize what she was doing was wrong.

The fact of the matter is, she is being put down in a way. She will spend the rest of her life staring at white walls never really seeing the outside world. For all practical purposes she's already dead. She's been removed from society.

Who knows, maybe medicine will find a cure for her and maybe one day she can be productive in society, but I doubt it. Only time will tell if that comes to pass.

I live in Texas. We have the death penalty. We often use it. Why not in her case? I am not keen on my tax dollars being used to allow her to use up good people's air. However, I suspect plenty of bleeding hearts here in Texas don't mind, so it probably comes out in the wash. They pay taxes too.

No excuse you can offer me mitigates her vile crime. If you want to hang her husband as an accomplice for deliberately and purposely depriving her of proper medication, I doubt I'd argue. Hang him too, as an accomplice. Hang them both, and help remove stupidity and worthlessness from the gene pool.

Call me heartless if you like. Some people just need killing.

Occhi

[Lissa]

I live in Texas. We have the death penalty. We often use it. Why not in her case? I am not keen on my tax dollars being used to allow her to use up good people's air. However, I suspect plenty of bleeding hearts here in Texas don't mind, so it probably comes out in the wash. They pay taxes too.

No excuse you can offer me mitigates her vile crime. If you want to hang her husband as an accomplice for deliberately and purposely depriving her of proper medication, I doubt I'd argue. Hang him too, as an accomplice. Hang them both, and help remove stupidity and worthlessness from the gene pool.

Call me heartless if you like. Some people just need killing.

Occhi

You realize Occhi that is costs more to try to kill someone that it does to put them away for life? Life without Parole means you get one appeal unless evidence comes up that proves your innocence. With putting someone on death row, they end up costing tax payers more money over the course of 15 to 20 years (pretty standard for the time spent on death row) because they have many more appeals and can appeal on grounds that they wouldn't get if they were put away for life.

So if you're going to bring in economics into this, it's cheaper to put them away for life than it is to kill them.

[gekko]

Mental disorders are more of a grey area than physical ones. We're relying as much on guesswork as we do on facts, simply because out of all of our organs, we know the least about the human brain.

Wait a sec. Didn't I put you on my /ignore list?

Fixed.
-A

Being more of a grey area doesn't make them not real. Not understanding mental illnesses is not an excuse for ignoring them. If you want to argue that there is no excuse for her behaviour, that's fine. But then you'd better be prepared to treat examples such as having a stroke while driving in the same way. Not everyone has the mental capacity to control their urges - and I'm not talking about people who can't stop themselves from eating, either.

Want another example? Let's talk about Alzheimer's. We know it's a progressive disease that affects people in similar but not identical ways. We don't know how to cure it, but there's no argument among educated scientists that it exists.

A lack of understanding should never be used as an excuse for treating a person like an animal.

gekko