Andrea Yates verdict - huh?

[eppie]

You are little more than a wannabe vulcan, straight out of star trek.

I have no idea what this means, but I know it is funny.


This thread is anyway, one of the best 'quote' getters. If I knew how to put those quotes in my profile under every message I post, I would choose one from this thread that's for sure.


Another reason that 'hot-button' topics are often much fun, and I'm happy that Griselde lets us go on behaving like this a bit. (although the third death penalty thread in a few months, might be a bit too much)

[kandrathe]

I have no idea what this means, but I know it is funny.
This thread is anyway, one of the best 'quote' getters. If I knew how to put those quotes in my profile under every message I post, I would choose one from this thread that's for sure.
Another reason that 'hot-button' topics are often much fun, and I'm happy that Griselde lets us go on behaving like this a bit. (although the third death penalty thread in a few months, might be a bit too much)

Do you think it's "Death Penalty" or "Which people deserve to be killed?"

[Ashock]

I've never been able to come up with a more accurate description of you than the one you just used to describe Pete.

gekko

Who are you again?


-A

[Lissa]

So, given the situation, there are several possible solutions that could have prevented the tragedy, but each one has thorny issues of its own.
1. Forced sterilization--In hindsight, this could be considered an excellent solution, but what American in their right mind would advocate or support such a measure?

2. Involuntary commitment to a mental facility--This solution if applied judiciously could be of great benefit, but also carries with it the potential for abuse, and violates our cherished notions of liberty.

3. Abortion--In other words kill the kids before Mrs. Yates could. Would the children have been better off? Would she still experience the hormonal changes that precipitate the psychosis? Of course, this is an approach which is in widespread use.

4. Placement of the children in foster homes--This might work. The issues with it are obvious.

5) Listen to their doctor and take appropriate actions.

By far the least problematic and least tragic of the options.

[Chesspiece_face]

Who are you again?
-A

He can cut your rates on car insurance if you switch to geico.

[Archon_Wing]

He can cut your rates on car insurance if you switch to geico.

Ah yes, and we will get back to this exciting discussion after these messages from our sponsors. :]

[kandrathe]

5) Listen to their doctor and take appropriate actions.

By far the least problematic and least tragic of the options.

At least 50% of the 40 people that work for me are on anti-depressants. Now, before you take the obvious shot, they were on them before I assumed command of the ship. I guess that if pushed in the right ways, any one of them could snap and go postal on me. I'm hoping to bring about some joy and relief to these down-trodden people, which is part of the reason I've been brought in to the position.

Luckily, none of them have been prescribed anti-psychotics.

[Lissa]

At least 50% of the 40 people that work for me are on anti-depressants. Now, before you take the obvious shot, they were on them before I assumed command of the ship. I guess that if pushed in the right ways, any one of them could snap and go postal on me. I'm hoping to bring about some joy and relief to these down-trodden people, which is part of the reason I've been brought in to the position.

Luckily, none of them have been prescribed anti-psychotics.

The point more I'm making is that if they had followed the Doctor's instructions, she would have never progressed to Post Partum Psychosis. Post Partum Depression is bad enough, but the Doctor was trying to spare them further pain.

Sometimes doctors say things we (all of us) don't want to hear, but the doctor typically has our (all of us) best interest at heart.

[Merlinios]

However, such things can of course never be made into laws. The putting to death of crazy people gives a government a fantastic tool to get rid of people they don't like. History showed us that these things will happen.

Indeed, but it would be nice to have a deterrent to the insanity defense, neh?

--me

[kandrathe]

The point more I'm making is that if they had followed the Doctor's instructions, she would have never progressed to Post Partum Psychosis. Post Partum Depression is bad enough, but the Doctor was trying to spare them further pain.

Sometimes doctors say things we (all of us) don't want to hear, but the doctor typically has our (all of us) best interest at heart.

True. In her case the warning signs were pretty clearly in place, but no one acted in time to prevent a tragedy. In a way, much like Columbine. Society in general tends to shuffle forward blindly, heedless of the plight and pain of those around them. So, in fact, rather than emphathize that the husband should be angry at her for her actions, I feel he could share part of the blame for encouraging another pregnancy and leaving his children with a person of questionable mental stability who had stopped taking her anti-psychotic medication.

[Occhidiangela]

5) Listen to their doctor and take appropriate actions.

How about this, Lissa? Get a second opinion from another Doctor. They don't all agree on a great deal. As to post partum depression . . . is this a recent phenomenon, brought about by the self fulfilling prophecies of psychiatrists to up their case load and income, or was it a typical response of women over many millenia to now and again drown a new born baby? It would seem to me, under the Darwinian model, to be a self defeating trait or habit, and one rather easily bred out in two ways:

1. Most babies of such ladies dying, and so the recessive or dominant gene not getting passed on
2. Killed by clan/tribe/family group for killing a baby, a rational response by clan/tribe/family group, given the biological survival imperative to keep the clan a going concern.

So, I offer item

6) Get a large wood chipper, and feed Andrea Yates into it.

I don't care what the excuse is for her behaviour -- "the Demons made me do it" seems to have prevailed at the moment -- drowning your own five children goes beyond the pale by any standard.

Pete mentioned euthanasia. That is a far kinder method than the one I suggested, so I'll come halfway and accept that as a good enough solution. But since it is rational, and the workings of our legal system are based on manipulating the emotions of a jury, it has no chance to be implemented.

Occhi

[Doc]

How about this, Lissa? Get a second opinion from another Doctor. They don't all agree on a great deal. As to post partum depression . . . is this a recent phenomenon, brought about by the self fulfilling prophecies of psychiatrists to up their case load and income, or was it a typical response of women over many millenia to now and again drown a new born baby? It would seem to me, under the Darwinian model, to be a self defeating trait or habit, and one rather easily bred out in two ways:

1. Most babies of such ladies dying, and so the recessive or dominant gene not getting passed on
2. Killed by clan/tribe/family group for killing a baby, a rational response by clan/tribe/family group, given the biological survival imperative to keep the clan a going concern.

So, I offer item

6) Get a large wood chipper, and feed Andrea Yates into it.

I don't care what the excuse is for her behaviour -- "the Demons made me do it" seems to have prevailed at the moment -- drowning your own five children goes beyond the pale by any standard.

Pete mentioned euthanasia. That is a far kinder method than the one I suggested, so I'll come halfway and accept that as a good enough solution. But since it is rational, and the workings of our legal system are based on manipulating the emotions of a jury, it has no chance to be implemented.

Occhi

Sailor, I like the cut of your jib.

But a woodchipper? That is going a bit far. Something like that should be saved for special cases.

[Occhidiangela]

Sailor, I like the cut of your jib.

But a woodchipper? That is going a bit far. Something like that should be saved for special cases.

I am thinking we had a thread on this lady's case a year or two ago when the case first went to court. It inspired the usual back and forth on the death penalty, insanity defense, etc.

So in a certain sense, this thread is a rehash of "nothing new under the sun."

I hear OJ is still looking for who killed his ex . . . :lol:

Occhi

[Lissa]

How about this, Lissa? Get a second opinion from another Doctor. They don't all agree on a great deal. As to post partum depression . . . is this a recent phenomenon, brought about by the self fulfilling prophecies of psychiatrists to up their case load and income, or was it a typical response of women over many millenia to now and again drown a new born baby? It would seem to me, under the Darwinian model, to be a self defeating trait or habit, and one rather easily bred out in two ways:

1. Most babies of such ladies dying, and so the recessive or dominant gene not getting passed on
2. Killed by clan/tribe/family group for killing a baby, a rational response by clan/tribe/family group, given the biological survival imperative to keep the clan a going concern.

So, I offer item

6) Get a large wood chipper, and feed Andrea Yates into it.

I don't care what the excuse is for her behaviour -- "the Demons made me do it" seems to have prevailed at the moment -- drowning your own five children goes beyond the pale by any standard.

Pete mentioned euthanasia. That is a far kinder method than the one I suggested, so I'll come halfway and accept that as a good enough solution. But since it is rational, and the workings of our legal system are based on manipulating the emotions of a jury, it has no chance to be implemented.

Occhi

Occhi, the next doctor probably would have said the same thing. She was diagnosis with Post Partum Depression after the birth of her first child. If she and her husband had followed the doctors directive, that child would probably still be alive and she would be in PPD not PPP (Psychosis).

Another factor here, everyone wants to lay blame squarely on her, but most seem to not think one wit about the fact that her husband is also at fault in all this. He pushed to have more children against the wishes of the doctor causing her to slip into PPP. He knew that she was unstable as it was. Simply put, he showed quite a bit of negligence on his part and what's happened to him?

What happened is a tragedy, but the fact is, it could have been prevented years ago if the measures had been taken then.

[Cryptic]

The real tragedy of this case is twofold - first, the loss of innocent lives. Second, it is going to encourage further abuse of the not guilty by reason of insanity plea.

Whether she's insane or not is quickly becoming a mute issue. The larger concern - who in the future is going to be insane, and who is not, when they do these kinds of things? Who is going to ge away with murder?

[Ashock]

How about this, Lissa? Get a second opinion from another Doctor. They don't all agree on a great deal. As to post partum depression . . . is this a recent phenomenon, brought about by the self fulfilling prophecies of psychiatrists to up their case load and income, or was it a typical response of women over many millenia to now and again drown a new born baby? It would seem to me, under the Darwinian model, to be a self defeating trait or habit, and one rather easily bred out in two ways:

1. Most babies of such ladies dying, and so the recessive or dominant gene not getting passed on
2. Killed by clan/tribe/family group for killing a baby, a rational response by clan/tribe/family group, given the biological survival imperative to keep the clan a going concern.

So, I offer item

6) Get a large wood chipper, and feed Andrea Yates into it.

I don't care what the excuse is for her behaviour -- "the Demons made me do it" seems to have prevailed at the moment -- drowning your own five children goes beyond the pale by any standard.

Pete mentioned euthanasia. That is a far kinder method than the one I suggested, so I'll come halfway and accept that as a good enough solution. But since it is rational, and the workings of our legal system are based on manipulating the emotions of a jury, it has no chance to be implemented.

Occhi

What always puzzled me about those "demons" is that they always made those people kill others, not themselves. Pretty convenient demons.

As far as post partum. My wife had that after our first was born. Her strongest desire was to just run away (which of course she did not do). Killing your own kids? That's not post partum. That's post-human... or maybe pre-human.

Of course, in a country where everything is a disease, from obesity to flatulence to smelly feet, none of the opinions on this forum are too surprising.


-A

[Lissa]

What always puzzled me about those "demons" is that they always made those people kill others, not themselves. Pretty convenient demons.

As far as post partum. My wife had that after our first was born. Her strongest desire was to just run away (which of course she did not do). Killing your own kids? That's not post partum. That's post-human... or maybe pre-human.

Of course, in a country where everything is a disease, from obesity to flatulence to smelly feet, none of the opinions on this forum are too surprising.
-A

Post Partum affects everyone differently Ashock. Maybe you should read up on it first. It might enlighten you.

[Ashock]

Post Partum affects everyone differently Ashock. Maybe you should read up on it first. It might enlighten you.

Of course it does. Some women experience very little or none at all. Others are affected more severely. However, if you want to kill your kids so much that you actually go ahead and do it (or even come close to it), you should change your name to Aab - Aborted At Birth. People have all sorts of different urges throughout their lives, some of them very strong and not necessarily normal. We as human beings have learned to separate ourselves from other animals by having self-control. Where is theirs? If they do not have it, then they should be treated as we treat other animals that have killed human beings.

Maybe you should read less pop-psychology. It might get some useless crap out of your brain, thereby enlightening you.


-A

[Occhidiangela]

Of course it does. Some women experience very little or none at all. Others are affected more severely. However, if you want to kill your kids so much that you actually go ahead and do it (or even come close to it), you should change your name to Aab - Aborted At Birth. People have all sorts of different urges throughout their lives, some of them very strong and not necessarily normal. We as human beings have learned to separate ourselves from other animals by having self-control. Where is theirs? If they do not have it, then they should be treated as we treat other animals that have killed human beings.

Maybe you should read less pop-psychology. It might get some useless crap out of your brain, thereby enlightening you.
-A

I wonder if the Eskimos/Inuits ever had to deal with post partum depression before someone told them what it was? I will never know, but I have always marveled at the power of suggestion.

Send money to Occhi

Where have I seen the underlined passage before?

Send money to Occhi


Occhi

[Lissa]

Where have I seen the underlined passage before?

Occhi

*cough*Pete'sPostParaphrased*cough*