Andrea Yates verdict - huh?

[Taem]

DELETED

1st EDIT: To make more sense. It didn't say what I really wanted it too the first time. I probably should have kept my mouth shut :unsure:!
2nd EDIT: It's so hot here... just can't think clearly. Rereading this, I sound as if I'm neurotic and can't form an opinion of my own. I'm just going to delete this whole thing for the sake of my sanity. I just can't make any sense of it or make it make any sense...

[Lissa]

Before you all go out and crucify her, I suggest you read up on the facts of the case and about postpartum depression. You would probably be enlightened on what you found out and might just realize, that while she did a heinous act, there is far more going on that people realize from reading and watching what the news media is throwing at you.

Do a little research, you might in the end have a little sympathy for this woman and the fact that if she ever is cured, which is doubtful, she will have to live the rest of her days thinking about what she had done in the state she is (was if cured) in.

[Munkay]

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Everything was within bounds of heated discourse up until the last few posts. Anyone of you want to drop the vitrol for a minute and make a point rather than an attack?

Feel free to PM me and curse up a storm. I don't mind, but there was a solid thread of good discussion going on here until it got buried under this crap.

Cheers,

Munk

[DeeBye]

Before you all go out and crucify her, I suggest you read up on the facts of the case and about postpartum depression. You would probably be enlightened on what you found out and might just realize, that while she did a heinous act, there is far more going on that people realize from reading and watching what the news media is throwing at you.

Do a little research, you might in the end have a little sympathy for this woman and the fact that if she ever is cured, which is doubtful, she will have to live the rest of her days thinking about what she had done in the state she is (was if cured) in.

I don't deny that post-partum depression is a very real and very serious thing, but it's impossible for people to look beyond the fact that she killed her 5 children. Mental health professionals might understand it, but everyone else just sees the 5 dead children killed by her own hand.

[mikeandroe]

A little late to this barn-burner, but as a very opinionated person, I am compelled to add my $0.02....

My beef is with the whole "NOT guilty by reason of insanity". It seems to me that more appropriate verdict in this case is..Guilty, but crazy as a loon.

I guess I just don't understand how one can be removed from the sphere of "guilt" just because there's something missing up top (chemical imbalance, crossed wires, whatever you wish to call it)

Did she do it? Absolutely, there's no doubt about this whatsoever, ergo she is guilty. The question of guilt (imho) begins and ends with "did they do it?" Mental, emotional, financial, etc... state at the time of the crime are extraneous and irrelevant factors in detirmining "guilt"

Is she crazy? Again, in my mind, there is no doubt of this. Her actions are (in my very non-professional, non-medical opinion) clearly those of an unstable mind. (unstable is really an understatement, stark-raving mad comes closer)

So the primary problem with this whole scenario is that our current laws allow her to escape the "realm of guilt" simply because of her mental state. Makes no sense to me.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Ah, how the mighty has fallen. Welcome to my level. Your last couple of posts have lost you some respect.

Be reassured that your opinion on that, along with your opinion on this actual topic, are in the minority.

[Chaerophon]

The raw emotions of the human spirit can not, and should not always be ignored or repressed. It is what makes us both great and terrible as human beings.

Doc,

Sorry, but all I could think of when I read this was the unsubtle "race" distinctions of D&D.

The "yin and yang" that you posit DO seem to justify the KKK, the Nazis, and all manner of other atrocities in the name of the "ongoing enterprise of the human spirit." I don't buy it. Perhaps such movements are the product of the "human spirit", but to my mind, were/had they been tempered by an ounce more of reason, their extremes would have been avoided. First and foremost, they are failures of reason, not part of some "inevitable balance".

[Tal]

So the primary problem with this whole scenario is that our current laws allow her to escape the "realm of guilt" simply because of her mental state. Makes no sense to me.

If you think she's escaping anything, even the realm of guilt, then you should re-read the thread.

[gekko]

Since you brought up the KKK, yes, they are needed in this world. Because of the KKK, we have had visionaries like Martin Luther King find his life's purpose. [...]

The world had Martin Luther King and would have had him even if slavery and racism had never existed in America. Martin Luther King and others like him were forced to give their lives working to change things that never should hav existed. Things that happened because other people gave in to the emotions you talk about. Just think of what those great visionaries could have accomplished if their lives were not sacrificed to fights that should never have had to have been fought.

Emotions like hatred are not things to be revered simply because they are part of who we are.

gekko

[gekko]

Did she do it? Absolutely, there's no doubt about this whatsoever, ergo she is guilty. The question of guilt (imho) begins and ends with "did they do it?" Mental, emotional, financial, etc... state at the time of the crime are extraneous and irrelevant factors in detirmining "guilt"

That's an oversimplification to the point of absurdity.

If Chuck Norris attacks me bare handed, and I shoot him to defend myself, that would be legitimate self defence. If I attack Chuck with a baseball bat and he snaps my neck, that would not be allowable self defence because Chuck Norris could easily have disarmed me without killing me.

Of course, there is also the question of what exaclty someone is guilty of. The law accounts for different degrees of murder, as well as degrees of manslaughter, because "did X kill Y" does not tell the story.

gekko

[gekko]

[...] Additionally, you display an utter lack of respect to those that disagree with you. Up to a point, that is fine and I do that too. You however, have degenerated too far even for my own tastes in this matter. Also, I do not take well to being patronized, especially by the likes of someone who is not really living in the same world I am. This last series of posts has just sealed all of the above for me.

There is a term in russian that I will mention. Maybe there is an equivalent in english, but I can't think of it. Anyway, in russian the word "umnui" means smart. The word "zaumnui" means someone who thinks they are smarter than they actually are. It in no way implies that they are dumb, just that they think too much of themselves.[...]
-A

I've never been able to come up with a more accurate description of you than the one you just used to describe Pete.

gekko

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

If Chuck Norris attacks me bare handed, and I shoot him to defend myself, that would be legitimate self defence.

That's absolutely nonsensical -- we both know he'd have a cigar in one hand and justice in the other while doing a roundhouse kick to your face.

"Bare-handed", he says... Honestly...

[Doc]

And on the eigth day, Bill Brasky gave birth to Chuck Norris...

[Lissa]

I don't deny that post-partum depression is a very real and very serious thing, but it's impossible for people to look beyond the fact that she killed her 5 children. Mental health professionals might understand it, but everyone else just sees the 5 dead children killed by her own hand.

Exactly my reason for stating that people should do some research on the issue. She suffers from Post Partum Psychosis. She was diagnosed with Post Partum Depression after the birth of her first child. The Doctor informed her and her husband (now ex) that they should not have any further children due to her ailment. In truth, her ex has some blame in all this too because he pushed to have more children instead of listening to their Doctor (I can look at this situation from a similar family tragedy from my Aunt and Uncle as my cousin died from birth defects due to drugs my Aunt was taking prior to ever getting preganent with him to cure a disease similar to gangrene and my Aunt and Uncle were told then that they should never have children due to potential side effects the drugs may cause). By doing so, he worsened her condition and she fell into Post Partum Psychosis.

[Alram]

So, given the situation, there are several possible solutions that could have prevented the tragedy, but each one has thorny issues of its own.
1. Forced sterilization--In hindsight, this could be considered an excellent solution, but what American in their right mind would advocate or support such a measure?

2. Involuntary commitment to a mental facility--This solution if applied judiciously could be of great benefit, but also carries with it the potential for abuse, and violates our cherished notions of liberty.

3. Abortion--In other words kill the kids before Mrs. Yates could. Would the children have been better off? Would she still experience the hormonal changes that precipitate the psychosis? Of course, this is an approach which is in widespread use.

4. Placement of the children in foster homes--This might work. The issues with it are obvious.

[Nystul]

So, given the situation, there are several possible solutions that could have prevented the tragedy, but each one has thorny issues of its own.
1. Forced sterilization--In hindsight, this could be considered an excellent solution, but what American in their right mind would advocate or support such a measure?

2. Involuntary commitment to a mental facility--This solution if applied judiciously could be of great benefit, but also carries with it the potential for abuse, and violates our cherished notions of liberty.

3. Abortion--In other words kill the kids before Mrs. Yates could. Would the children have been better off? Would she still experience the hormonal changes that precipitate the psychosis? Of course, this is an approach which is in widespread use.

4. Placement of the children in foster homes--This might work. The issues with it are obvious.

Unless you have a crystal ball that can predict who is going to murder their children and who isn't, these aren't worthy of consideration. From the information I've read about the case, this probably could have been prevented by far less drastic measures. She visited her pychiatrist just 2 days before the murders, so obviously he didn't see the threat. She had previously been on Haldol and no longer was... although we don't know if that would have made a difference or not. Her husband appears to be a total idiot or he could have prevented it by not leaving her alone with the kids (amongst the many bad choices he made in this case). Perhaps these things don't raise to the level of criminal negligance, but they didn't help the situation any.

[Alram]

Unless you have a crystal ball that can predict who is going to murder their children and who isn't, these aren't worthy of consideration. From the information I've read about the case, this probably could have been prevented by far less drastic measures. She visited her pychiatrist just 2 days before the murders, so obviously he didn't see the threat. She had previously been on Haldol and no longer was... although we don't know if that would have made a difference or not. Her husband appears to be a total idiot or he could have prevented it by not leaving her alone with the kids (amongst the many bad choices he made in this case). Perhaps these things don't raise to the level of criminal negligance, but they didn't help the situation any.

I agree. These solutions only work in hindsight. Hopefully this case wil not provoke folks to attempt to legislate such Draconian measures.

According to what I have heard on Primetime, her mother-in-law was coming over to be with them in 1 hour. In other words she had a 1 hour window in which to kill her children.

[kandrathe]

Small nit here:

"Murder: 1. Kill intentionally and with premeditation"

I'm sure this is [not] the meaning of your reply, however this did strike me as odd. By what you said, does this make everyone fighting a war insane by your definition? I know a few people who came back from Iraq and, while they didn't like what they saw and had to do, they knew it was part of their job. They had to find out where the enemies were located and formulate a strategy to eradicate them. This is definitely premeditation and fits the bill for murder, however I would hardly classify them - or their actions - as expressions of ‘insanity,’ not by any stretch of the imagination.

Well, it does give one pause to reflect. Some killing in War is murder, but most of it is incapacitating the oppositions ability to attack/defend. But, then again, anytime force is used, there is that time and place when excessive force is an option. To take that option, as with Rodney King, might be an abuse of authority, and to not take it might result in your unit being overrun by the enemy.

But, to your original point, I was thinking of criminal behavior.

[kandrathe]

In a mental hospital you don't have to worry about your roomate being a mass murderer, about alliances/gangs that form or are already formed, about being stabbed by a makeshift knife, or gased/beaten by guards if you step far out of line. Granted, your roomate may actually be a murderer, but they're most likely loaded on a bunch of medications (as well as you) that leave you in a pretty catatonic state.

No, in the institutions for the criminally insane, 1/2 the population would rape you given the chance and the other 1/2 would want to kill you (because you might smell like pinapples). And, then, you don't get just one room mate, but a whole ward. Try closing your eyes...

[eppie]

And this would be bad for what reason? Do you think she deserves better? She killed FIVE KIDS! If she is "legitimately" insane, let's "legitimately" punish her. Hospital is not a punishment, unless it's one like in "One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest". People who get suffuciently drunk do not know what htey are doing either, but we punish them real good. This whole "not responsible for their action" crap, is one of the major resaons why crime these days is so rampant. Our society has excuses for pretty much everything these days.

Ashock, you should seperate what is a right 'punishment' in this case, and what would be right in general.

This case, seems quite clear. Completely mentalcase, no possibility of getting normal again, so we cannot let such a person free in society anymore. Apart form the question if she is so crazy she didn't realize what she did or whatever, euthenasia might be the best option here.

However, such things can of course never be made into laws. The putting to death of crazy people gives a government a fantastic tool to get rid of people they don't like. History showed us that these things will happen.