Nothing is Sacred!

[--Pete]

Hi,

The fact is that obtaining anthrax is so difficult that the only suspects can be mad scientists.

Not really. It would appear that anthrax is relatively common. Anyone who paid attention in high school biology should have little trouble collecting some and growing a few petri dishes of the stuff. Letting it dry out should be sufficient to form the spores. Now, getting the lethal strains might be harder. And 'weaponizing' it would require a good lab and advanced knowledge. But just getting bacillus anthracis (or yersinia pestis or mycobacterium tuberculosis or any number of other nasties) would really not be that hard to do.

If shutting down a building for a day doesn't cost anything I would agree with you but if people start mailing powder letters around every day, the costs would be so huge that you could raise the wealth of several African countries to first world standards, and paying for the new Obama health care bill.

Schools and universities have gotten a lot of bomb threats, especially around exam times. I never heard that the costs were a major item. Probably cheaper than labor disputes and weeks long strikes.

Plus, if you are a real terrorist and not a mad scientist you don't mail anthrax but you hide it in an office building giving the disease time to spread.

Since anthrax has a short life in the open except in spore form, and spore form is inert, it wouldn't too much good to give it time to spread.

--Pete

[LavCat]

Hmm. I work in the library of a small, quiet town (population about 750). No police force, not much crime except for speeding. It's been called "a one horse town," but there are more horses here than that. People are friendly. Just yesterday the letter carrier handed me the mail and his movies to return. One would not expect an anthrax attack here but there was. The little post office down the street from the library had to be closed and decontaminated.

Consider the repercussions if the decision were made not to close the building and people started coming down with anthrax.

The fact is that obtaining anthrax is so difficult that the only suspects can be mad scientists.
If shutting down a building for a day doesn't cost anything I would agree with you but if people start mailing powder letters around every day, the costs would be so huge that you could raise the wealth of several African countries to first world standards, and paying for the new Obama health care bill.


Apart from the fact that I don't believe your story (until I see it on CNN) there are so many easier and cheaper ways to harm people if you want to.

As you wish:
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/condi...y.anthrax/

Someone said anthrax could be weaponized for $2500, but it is true the cost of postage is increasing.

Plus, if you are a real terrorist and not a mad scientist you don't mail anthrax but you hide it in an office building giving the disease time to spread. E.g. putting some powder next to the powder milk jar.
So do you still agree we should close down a building every time we see some powder lying next to the powdered milk jar? Or for that matter if everything seems normal? A well trained terrorist should be able to hide something in your office without you seeing it.

No one is asserting our little post office was the *target* of the attack. As Tom Lehrer has said: "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down."

The scientist, Bruce Ivins (now deceased), the primary suspect, was arguably more of a religious fanatic than a trained terrorist. Did Ivins do it, and did the perpetrator act alone? The FBI believes so, and closed their case a few weeks ago (2/19/2010). However the more I read, the more questions that I have. Just because Oswald acted alone does not mean everyone has to.

If the Dutch authorities closed the building because of some powder lying next to the powdered milk jar, I'd first ask if the powder in question was similar in color to powdered milk. If so I would agree that the authorities may have acted hastily. Was this really the case though? And what if the terrorist acted imperfectly, such that some of the milk were spilled? From reading current events, it seems terrorists are occasionaly foiled. I wouldn't cry over spilt milk.

Maybe because of the nature of this site, I tend to look at it as game theory. You receive an envelope of white powder, it could be anthrax or it could be talc. You can choose whether to close the building or not to close the building. Pretend I drew a diagram of four boxes. Label each with its own outcome. Only one choice can be catastophic (at least for the career of the bureaucrat in question). This is not to say that the person who mailed the talc should not be sent to jail.

Here is some more material on anthrax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

[LavCat]

...
Schools and universities have gotten a lot of bomb threats, especially around exam times. I never heard that the costs were a major item. Probably cheaper than labor disputes and weeks long strikes.
...
--Pete

A high school in our county had a recent bomb threat. And a pair of students really did have bombs and weapons.

[--Pete]

Hi,

...
Schools and universities have gotten a lot of bomb threats, especially around exam times. I never heard that the costs were a major item. Probably cheaper than labor disputes and weeks long strikes.
...
--Pete

A high school in our county had a recent bomb threat. And a pair of students really did have bombs and weapons.

Kinda reminds me of "just because you are paranoid does not mean they're not out to get you."

And, yeah, game theory would assign a BIG negative value to the "it's really anthrax/do nothing" square.

--Pete

[eppie]

[quote='LavCat' pid='174388' dateline='1272234927']


As you wish:
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/condi...y.anthrax/

Someone said anthrax could be weaponized for $2500, but it is true the cost of postage is increasing.


[quote]

Thanks, I guess I have just been confused by the fact that here every powder letter the last 10 years was front page news while none of them actually was anthrax. I expected a major news item, but apparently it is not so difficult to get something that is dangerous (although not deadly weapons grade (Thanks for the explanation Pete))





[quote='LavCat' pid='174388' dateline='1272234927']

No one is asserting our little post office was the *target* of the attack. As Tom Lehrer has said: "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down."

The scientist, Bruce Ivins (now deceased), the primary suspect, was arguably more of a religious fanatic than a trained terrorist. Did Ivins do it, and did the perpetrator act alone? The FBI believes so, and closed their case a few weeks ago (2/19/2010). However the more I read, the more questions that I have. Just because Oswald acted alone does not mean everyone has to.

If the Dutch authorities closed the building because of some powder lying next to the powdered milk jar, I'd first ask if the powder in question was similar in color to powdered milk. If so I would agree that the authorities may have acted hastily. Was this really the case though? And what if the terrorist acted imperfectly, such that some of the milk were spilled? From reading current events, it seems terrorists are occasionaly foiled. I wouldn't cry over spilt milk.

Maybe because of the nature of this site, I tend to look at it as game theory. You receive an envelope of white powder, it could be anthrax or it could be talc. You can choose whether to close the building or not to close the building. Pretend I drew a diagram of four boxes. Label each with its own outcome. Only one choice can be catastophic (at least for the career of the bureaucrat in question). This is not to say that the person who mailed the talc should not be sent to jail.

Here is some more material on anthrax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks
[/quote]

A chemistry lab was closed in a building where I used to work because someone found some white powder on a lab bench.....


Anyway the point remains that do these things happen more and more it really is to costly to shut down buildings. What about all the police that could have gone catching a murderous criminal, all the ambulances that are waiting in front of the building that now are too late to save a lethally injured man, that now dies instead of being brought to the hospital in time?

Doing the right thing to be sure is all fine when the thing doesn't happen to often. When it will start happening more people will get tired from it and public opinion will become negative towards these actions.

Look at the 9/11 attacks....because nobody expected anything like that to happen, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The worst things are always things you don't expect. And I am not saying we should stop airport security, but being careful about other things that can happen might be not a bad idea as well.

[Occhidiangela]

Here is how to respond to this foolishness.

Buy one. (See attachment).

Put it on your dash board.

Drive around.

Thanks to the guys at http://www.blackfive.net/main/ for putting this up in 2006 when those jerkoffs got all mad at the Danes, and started trying to burn embassies.

Also, FWIW, 20 May is Everybody Draw Mohamed day.

Please participate.
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/revolut...07599.html

The revolutionmuslim website also has a video (the third thumbnail) rebuttal of sorts that is an aggressive warning to Parker and Stone. It features a sermon from Anwar Al-awlaki, an American Islamic leader with alleged terrorist links currently wanted and believed to be hiding in Yemen.

And the video has images of the slain Theo Van Gogh, pictures of Salman Rushdie which prompted a fatwa from Iran because of his depiction of the Prophet Mohamed in his novel The Satanic Verses.

You will note that one of the little scumbags making a lot of noise over at revolutionmuslim.com calls himself Abu Talhah al Amrikee. He grew up in Virginia, and then discovered he's an Islamic militant. (Not sure how that worked, but there you are).

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

You will note that one of the little scumbags making a lot of noise over at revolutionmuslim.com calls himself Abu Talhah al Amrikee. He grew up in Virginia, and then discovered he's an Islamic militant. (Not sure how that worked, but there you are).

There's no accounting for mental illness or stupidity.

Here's an idea: kick out the bastards born and raised here that don't appreciate what they have, and for each one kicked out, allow someone to immigrate who *wants* to be a citizen.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Here's an idea: kick out the bastards born and raised here that don't appreciate what they have, and for each one kicked out, allow someone to immigrate who *wants* to be a citizen.

I agree with you Pete. I also think that 18 year olds should pass the same test given to new emigrants on citizenship, before being allowed to vote.

Do you have what it takes to become a citizen?

[--Pete]

Hi,

Do you have what it takes to become a citizen?

Took their little quiz, 19/20. Kinda sad, though. It had almost nothing to do with understanding what the USA and citizenship is all about. Mostly trivia and at least one misconception. I fail to see how knowing, for instance, the year the constitution was ratified makes one a better citizen. A good citizen would know that, but only as part of a greater picture.

BTW, the one I missed was "Which of the following amendments to the Constitution does NOT address or guarantee voting rights?" Total brain fart

--Pete

[kandrathe]

BTW, the one I missed was "Which of the following amendments to the Constitution does NOT address or guarantee voting rights?" Total brain fart

I missed that one... only I farted twice. I guess it is Congress that declares war... I was thrown off by recent precedents (or, was that Presidents?).

85%, but still worthy of citizenship by MSNBC's estimation. I agree on the substance. What does form N-400 have to do with the price of greenmail on K-street?

[Jim]

Hi, Took their little quiz, 19/20.
--Pete

Hi,

18/20 or 15/20 & 3 lucky guesses.

Free Trivia for All
60 Second Trivia;
Description: A super fast paced quiz. You have only 60 seconds to answer as many trivia questions as you can. Instructions:... Play!

[Jester]

19/20. Unsurprisingly, I do not know what form you have to fill out to become a naturalized citizen.

Is that really what you need to know? I'm reminded of the Simpsons.

Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?

Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--

Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.

Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

Is that really what you need to know? I'm reminded of the Simpsons.

You have some objection to a collection of useless questions about bureaucratic trivia, semi-accurate factoids, and a history that is more legend than fact as a means to determine suitability for citizenship? What do you want? Knowledge, understanding, and something resembling patriotism? Get real.

--Pete