Senate report concludes: no proof of contact between

[Doc]

After the BATF and FBI learned that the American Justice Federation had released a press release stating that the use of military troops against United States citizens violated federal law, specifically, the Posse Comitatus act, the BATF released a cover story, claiming that the tanks were "really" not Army, they were national guard, and had been brought in under the "Drug interdiction act" because they had heard there was a "methamphetamine lab" — three weeks after the FBI had already publicly announced there was never any question whatsoever of drug involvement.

Since the Waco issue was brought up... And all this talk of military hardware, WTF was the Army doing at Waco, and why did they bring their tanks? As it was found out later during it the hearings, it WAS the army, and not the national guard. Whoops... Somebody broke the law.

Weaver was sent a letter with an inccorent court date, and the judge that made the mistake refused to correct the mistake and remove the fugitive status. That right there is an INTENTIONAL act of breaking the law. Weaver was not actually a fugitive in the legal sense. They wanted to make an example of him to make other snitches comply. From that point on, everything was a farce. That Ryan guy made some really boneheaded moves. ATF survellience from this point on was all illegal and any information gathered during this time should not have been allowed as evidence, as Weaver's fugitive status was false. The warrant for his arrest was no longer legal either, and the marshals KNEW this, but were working in cooperation anyway, as they to felt that people that refused to snitch for the government needed to be taught a lesson. One of the marshals actually stated that it was more important to follow the spirit of the law than the letter of the law, and that all of them felt that it was better in this case to take the law in to their own hands. Cameras were illegally installed on the Weaver's private property to watch the family.

Then the shootings happened. They shot the dog to start the confrontation. Marshals claim they were fired on first, but this has since been proven false, as Sam was SHOT IN THE BACK WHILE HE WAS RUNNING AWAY. He was also shot in the back of his arm. Vicki Weaver was shot in the back of the head while she was holding her baby.

Weaver should have never been arrested or put in jail at all. He was acting in self defense.

[Occhidiangela]

Since the Waco issue was brought up... And all this talk of military hardware, WTF was the Army doing at Waco, and why did they bring their tanks?

Doc, was 9-11 planned by PNAC too?

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Doc, was 9-11 planned by PNAC too?

Occhi

I think Oliver Stone is making a documentary about it to reveal the "real" truth.

[Doc]

Doc, was 9-11 planned by PNAC too?

Occhi

What, no answer for a good question? Janet Reno was grilled on this very issue, why was the Army at Waco. She refused to answer the question, saying it was only a misunderstanding.

So, care to take a shot why both army soldiers and army hardware was at Waco?

[Thecla]

was 9-11 planned by PNAC too?

Of course not; please leave silly conspiracy theories aside, even in jest. But you don't have to plan an event to exploit it despicably.

And, since this thread has already been derailed by gun-control arguments, is catastrophic military action against Iran next on the agenda, even as Afghanistan and Iraq slide further into chaos?

[kandrathe]

Of course not; please leave silly conspiracy theories aside, even in jest. But you don't have to plan an event to exploit it despicably.

And, since this thread has already been derailed by gun-control arguments, is catastrophic military action against Iran next on the agenda, even as Afghanistan and Iraq slide further into chaos?

You have not been paying attention. All threads eventually get derailed by either pedastry, and/or the death penalty. We're not done yet here!

[Occhidiangela]

You have not been paying attention. All threads eventually get derailed by either pedastry, and/or the death penalty. We're not done yet here!

Motion on the floor: Screw the Lord High Executioner!
Do I hear a second?

Doc: I don't care why Texas National Guardsmen, in a Blackhawk or in armored vehicles, were in Waco when Koresh and company decided to martyr themselves for their beliefs. While I don't fully understand why Koresh and company weren't left alone to be weird on their own turf, I heard it had to do with charges of illegal treatment of minors and the usual firearms violations. (The latter of which seems to be the new "tax evasion" thin end of many a wedge.) Janet Reno is gone, Ashcroft is gone, and nothing will bring those people who died in Waco back to life. If their beliefs hold true, they are with God now, and so in a happier place than Texas.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Of course not; please leave silly conspiracy theories aside, even in jest. But you don't have to plan an event to exploit it despicably.

And, since this thread has already been derailed by gun-control arguments, is catastrophic military action against Iran next on the agenda, even as Afghanistan and Iraq slide further into chaos?

Why that qualifier, catastophic? For whom?

Note: I think all this noise about attacking Iran damned foolishness.

Occhi

[Doc]

Motion on the floor: Screw the Lord High Executioner!
Do I hear a second?

Doc: I don't care why Texas National Guardsmen, in a Blackhawk or in armored vehicles, were in Waco when Koresh and company decided to martyr themselves for their beliefs. While I don't fully understand why Koresh and company weren't left alone to be weird on their own turf, I heard it had to do with charges of illegal treatment of minors and the usual firearms violations. (The latter of which seems to be the new "tax evasion" thin end of many a wedge.) Janet Reno is gone, Ashcroft is gone, and nothing will bring those people who died in Waco back to life. If their beliefs hold true, they are with God now, and so in a happier place than Texas.

Occhi

Yes, but why was the ARMY involved in beating down common citizens? NatGaurd is one thing, but using the Army to do your jack booted thug dirty work is a whole different issue. Against the law. It is wrong. And it sure as hell aint the American way.

BTW, the warrant for the Waco event was never legally served, to top everything off. Everybody and everything there was there illegally. Especially the army. And the excuse about a meth lab was just piss poor, as there was no meth lab, never was a meth lab, and it was known there was no meth lab three weeks before.

We as American citizens should be outraged. Those people died because our government broke the law and abused its own citizens.

For shame.

[Occhidiangela]

Yes, but why was the ARMY involved in beating down common citizens? NatGaurd is one thing, but using the Army to do your jack booted thug dirty work is a whole different issue. Against the law. It is wrong. And it sure as hell aint the American way.

We as American citizens should be outraged. Those people died because our government broke the law and abused its own citizens.

For shame.

Where do you have evidence that the armored vehicles were not Texas National Guard assets? The national guard have tanks, APC's, and chem vehicles. I am unaware of Meth Lab arguments. The articles I have read on this pointed to polygamy, suspected unlawful firearms possession and distribution, and unlawful treatment of minors. Defectors from the cult were a key to the case starting. You want to point fingers, look to the Judas collection.

I was under the impression that the National Guard were the only military assets present, consistent with a governor's discretionary powers. If you have better info, I'd like to be better informed.

As to legality, if the Governor of Texas asked for federal assistance, to include active duty armed forces assistance, and got them from the feds with Congressional sanction, then regular army units being there would be lawful under the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.ht...ntary here The Act's language was updated by Congress to add Air Force to ArmyWhoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

I find your analysis of the case to be flawed. Those people are dead because the FBI and ATF folks on scene didn't have the patience and savvy to deal with the leadership of the cult necessary for the situation. Their actions induced a fight or flight response in a man with Messianic delusions whose followers were already under his influence. Whether or not they should have been left well enough alone to be a cult of ex Seventh Day Adventist, End Days, Millenialist whackos forever is another matter that is, sadly, water under the bridge.

EDIT: Got it. US military personnel and equipment that the US Justice Department
admits were used at Mt. Carmel:

"Military Personnel and Equipment

- Personnel
Active Duty Personnel - 15
Texas National Guard Personnel - 13

- Track vehicles

Bradley fighting vehicle (OMZ) - 9
Combat Engineer Vehicle (M728) - 5
Tank Retrieval vehicle (M88) - 1
Abrams Tanks (M1A1) - 2

Source: Department of the Treasury, Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell also known as David Koresh,
U.S. Government Printing Office, September 1993

Occhi

[eppie]

It's not like you have to make stuff up. They are pretty evil and they do evil stuff to their own people.

Have you been there when they did that stuff?
No seriously..on the evilscale Castro cannot be found in the top. There are other reason people want him out of there.

[kandrathe]

Have you been there when they did that stuff?

Americans are not allowed in Cuba.

No seriously..on the evilscale Castro cannot be found in the top. There are other reason people want him out of there.

How about Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant (Hardcover)

But then again, eppie, I'm never sure what reality you live in. Bill Buckley described the situation thus; In one case, a person shoves an old lady in front of a bus getting her killed. Evil yes? In another case, a person shoves an old lady out from in front of a bus saving her life. Good, yes? But in both cases the press would accuse the person of shoving around old ladies.

Fidel is the type that shoves the old lady under the bus.

Meanwhile, in other news, Kofi Annan hails anti-US forum in Cuba"I can assure you that his health is improving very well," Annan told delegates at the meeting, and he praised Castro "for his immense contribution and the leadership that he has shown over the different stages and the evolution of the (Non-Aligned) movement."

And, Iran, Venuzula try to forge anti-US front Hey! Isn't that a strange thing to try to do at a Non-Aligned Summit? What does non-aligned mean anyway?

[eppie]

Americans are not allowed in Cuba.
How about Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant (Hardcover)

But then again, eppie, I'm never sure what reality you live in. Bill Buckley described the situation thus; In one case, a person shoves an old lady in front of a bus getting her killed. Evil yes? In another case, a person shoves an old lady out from in front of a bus saving her life. Good, yes? But in both cases the press would accuse the person of shoving around old ladies.

Fidel is the type that shoves the old lady under the bus.

Meanwhile, in other news, Kofi Annan hails anti-US forum in Cuba"I can assure you that his health is improving very well," Annan told delegates at the meeting, and he praised Castro "for his immense contribution and the leadership that he has shown over the different stages and the evolution of the (Non-Aligned) movement."

And, Iran, Venuzula try to forge anti-US front Hey! Isn't that a strange thing to try to do at a Non-Aligned Summit? What does non-aligned mean anyway?

What would you do if you were under the constant pressure to be invaded bij the US just because your government isn't capitalistic enough?

I mean you can't seriously think that the inhabitants of those countries would have any respect for the US?

O and about cuba, the crimes (drugs, murders etc.) commited by cuban immigrants in Miami outnumber those supposedly done by Castro and his regime for sure.

But that was not the point. The point was that I said the US government paid journalists (this time we know about it but very probably it is custom for decades already) to write bad things about Castro, and you answer that is because Castro is a bad person, where in fact the only thing you know is that he doesn't allow US citizens in his county (I can't blame him for that). The rest you know from different sources which I just claimed can't be taken very seriously.

I know many people that visited Cuba, and although poor, the people seems happy, and educated they told me.

[kandrathe]

What would you do if you were under the constant pressure to be invaded bij the US just because your government isn't capitalistic enough?

I mean you can't seriously think that the inhabitants of those countries would have any respect for the US?

Actually, the way things are in the world today, I don't seriously think any non-US citizen nor 1/2 the US citizens to have respect for the US. Your lens of history is pretty blurry. There was this thing called the "Cuban Missile Crisis" where Castro invited the USSR to place missile silo's just off our coast line. If you want to dilute the 4 decade conflict between the west and the USSR to one of economic systems, then so be it, but I'd encourage you to dig a little deeper.

O and about cuba, the crimes (drugs, murders etc.) commited by cuban immigrants in Miami outnumber those supposedly done by Castro and his regime for sure.

I guess that might be true, since 10% of the Cubans in this world live in Florida.

But that was not the point. The point was that I said the US government paid journalists (this time we know about it but very probably it is custom for decades already) to write bad things about Castro, and you answer that is because Castro is a bad person, where in fact the only thing you know is that he doesn't allow US citizens in his county (I can't blame him for that).

Don't believe me then. How about Human Rights Watch? Also, a point of clarification. Castro welcomes all tourists (even Americans). The US has an embargo, and rules against supplying Cuba with cash. And, finally, I'd rather we paid reporters to propagandize Castro, than try to invade the Bay of Pigs, or drop bombs on them. People are free to sift the truth from the dross.

The rest you know from different sources which I just claimed can't be taken very seriously. I know many people that visited Cuba, and although poor, the people seems happy, and educated they told me.

No, I pointed you to a book written by someone who was is a position to know more than I do. You know people who visited Cuba and who were "handled" by the Cuban tourist industry.

[Merlinios]

People are free to sift the truth from the dross.

Freedom has never been the issue here. Several adages apply here, perhaps the most well-known involving sewing implements and barnyard feed storage.

But aside from clichéd proverbs, there are two very real factors that prevent people from finding truth; drive and intelligence. Ever wonder what the hypothetical knowledge that Castro (or Saddam, or Osama) are decent people might do to some Americans?

--me

[kandrathe]

Ever wonder what the hypothetical knowledge that Castro (or Saddam, or Osama) are decent people might do to some Americans?

--me

Help them hypothetically sleep easier at night? I'm sure, hypothetically, they are decent to some people, but when they are bad, they are so very bad.

[eppie]

F Ever wonder what the hypothetical knowledge that Castro (or Saddam, or Osama) are decent people might do to some Americans?

--me

I disagree strongly with this putting of Castro in one sentence with Saddam or Osama (I guess you mean hussein and bin laden...).
Compared to the US supported rightwing extremist junta governments in south america, Castro did a good job.

O and Kandrathe, it's nice that you pretend to know what my friends have seen and how the went around in Cuba, but you are wrong.

[Occhidiangela]

I disagree strongly with this putting of Castro in one sentence with Saddam or Osama (I guess you mean hussein and bin laden...). Compared to the US supported rightwing extremist junta governments in south america, Castro did a good job.

What a remarkable perspective on how Castro gained, consolidated, and maintainted power. I say remarkable in an effort to remain civil. I suggest you do a little digging on Castro's energetic (backed by Soviet resources) attempts to export revolution in the Americas and Africa (Angola for 50, Alex) for about 20 years. The export was via standard Marxist means (the red in the flag is oddly enough the symbolic color of blood. Go figure.)

Occhi

[kandrathe]

I disagree strongly with this putting of Castro in one sentence with Saddam or Osama (I guess you mean hussein and bin laden...).
Compared to the US supported rightwing extremist junta governments in south america, Castro did a good job.

O and Kandrathe, it's nice that you pretend to know what my friends have seen and how the went around in Cuba, but you are wrong.

There are two scenarios, eppie; Your friends are a part of the Cuban government/military and thus know the truth. They would also be likely to propagandize Castro as "true" marxist believers would, so they would be unreliably biased. Or, it was as I said, they were guests of Castro's Cuba, shown what the regime wanted them to see, set up as stooges and/or useful idiots.

Most Germans in 1940 loved Adolf Hitler, and they turned a blind eye to the "bad things". It is the same with Castro, he has a revolutionary cult where he is the equivelent of the David Koresh of Cuba. He crushed, and continues to crush any hint of opposition. There are no freedoms in Cuba that are not given by the regime boons to the faithful. Is he a dictator? Does he act like a dictator? Personally, I will be relieved when he and Raul are dead.

[Jarulf]

Occhi answered it well. If our soldiers commit war crimes, then they should be held accountable to the uniform code of military justice. If our civilians commit any crimes they are answerable to appropriate US courts. The ICC is a political court, used for political purposes. Like the UN.

Then keep your soldiers at home, fine! The problems comes when you want to use said political organisations yourself to get others to comply but ignore it yourself. It is never good to have a "it applies to everyone else but not us" attitude. It will errode the whole system/concept. If you don't like them, ignore them completely then, but don't come demand that others should follow them when it suits you.