The New Crusade

[kandrathe]

Hi,
Ever consider the possibility that the information you were trying to get might have been classified? I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to lie through my teeth when someone asked me about something they were neither cleared for nor had a need to know.

But I would ask you to consider this: there are a lot of artificial satellites up there. Some of them do belong to agencies that prefer not to discuss their missions and methods. Decent quality optics are cheap. While I haven't been briefed on any secret surveillance systems, that doesn't mean that I'm going to assume there are none such. And I do know that sixteen satellites gives you almost complete coverage at about one hour intervals.

Nothing definite, but I'd be putting my money on the 'they're being tracked' side of the bet.

--Pete

Here is a ship at a Doha dock.



And... that is Google Earth quality. Consider how many items can be automatically tracked by an AWACS plane... Yeah, you're probably right. :-)

[eppie]

There are similiarly insulting and controversial people in America, we tend not to kill them or allow them to be killed just for being outspoken.

Of course, this is also what I always say. The calling everything terrorism is what bothers me.
Say only 1 % of what van Gogh said in a pub and you will have your teeth kicked in. The murder on van Gogh was a murder, not terrorism, murder commited because of hate. A murder were you are rightfully sentences to life in prison for. But not terrorism in the sense that I am scared that it might happen to me as well.


Well actually I gave the examples of reverend King, but there are also the Kennedy's, the black people in the south (some years ago of course) That is real terrorism.

[kandrathe]

... Well actually I gave the examples of reverend King, but there are also the Kennedy's, the black people in the south (some years ago of course) That is real terrorism.

Yes, Dr. King was assassinated by racist(s). I wouldn't equate the Civil Rights movement with a struggle against terrorism. Yes, there were organized groups who terrorized blacks, but the real struggle for blacks was to be allowed equal access to justice and to be treated by governments as equal citizens. While that sounds like civil rights when compared to terrorism is a smaller thing, it is really an enormous thing to be treated as a 2nd class citizen by State and Federal governments. The Civil Rights movement was due to relics of slavery, and really is a red herring in relation to terrorism. But, it does reveal another example of man's inhumanity.

The Kennedy's deaths were politically motivated, and most likely due to their battles with organized crime (and its presence in organized labor). I don't think its a coincidence that the Kennedy's #1 domestic enemy disappeared without a trace after JFK was assassinated. Again, I wouldn't elevate organized crime to an insurgency.

The closest we get to insurgencies and terrorist organizations are like the Michigan Militia. Oh, and then there are the Al Queda cells that are found here every once in awhile.

But, what I was getting at was like how we allow neo-nazi's to march around and hold rallies. As long as they follow the societies rules their rights are not interfered with, but I'm sure there are many people who wish them harm. I think we could predict what would happen if an KKK waco in robes was riding his bike through a black neighborhood alone spouting racial hatred.

The only reason I would call Theo Van Gogh's murder a terrorist act was because of the note they left threatening others. The note meant that the he was stalked, targeted and meant to send a message to other outspoken Dutch people. If he had merely been shot in the head, or stabbed it might have been treated as just a murder.

[Occhidiangela]

OK van Gogh, I don't know if you know the guy. He insulted people for fun....something that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. (you have the freedom to say everything you want, but you should have the wisdom not to say everything). Example, he (in a column in some journal) stated that a dutch jewish writer (I think it was Leon de Winter whos parents died in a concentration camp) had wet dreams where he was having sex with dying people in the gas chambers.

Hirsi Ali was another of those people with a second agenda (becoming an important person), in her noble struggle for muslim women rights, she was actually just using insults.

So, for this they should die? Don Rickles and George Carlin made careers out of insulting people (in different ways) as part of their comedy/social commentary.

Should they have been killed for that?

I have been known to sneer at or mock Eurotrash. Should I be killed for that?

Pete has, in posts at the DSF and here, belittled idiots. Should he be killed for that?

Where do you stand, eppie, on free speech? Do you understand it?

"I disagree with you, sir, but I defend to the death your right to tell such lies." That approach works for me, as it allows a liar to be exposed for what he is, and a bigot.

Should the sentence for bigotry be death, eppie? Are thought crimes now capital offenses?

Look at how far on an assanine slippery slope this takes things. The Pope's speech was used as an excuseto kill non Muslims in Gaza and Somalia.

"I don't like what he said, therefore, he and people like him shall die."

This latest butchery in the name of Allah is eerily similar to being put to death for treason in feudal times, except there is no court, no kingdom, and no Divine Right of Kings. It's unilateral punishment for speech against "whatever I say it is this morining, Allah Be Praised."

You risk entering their ideological camp, eppie, if you play the apologist for killing excused by "I don't like what he said."

Occhi

[eppie]

So, for this they should die? Don Rickles and George Carlin made careers out of insulting people (in different ways) as part of their comedy/social commentary.

Should they have been killed for that?

I have been known to sneer at or mock Eurotrash. Should I be killed for that?

Pete has, in posts at the DSF and here, belittled idiots. Should he be killed for that?

Where do you stand, eppie, on free speech? Do you understand it?

Occhi

This is a very weak post of you occhi. Do you on purpose not understand me or are you really not able to read?

In several ocasions in this thread, and tens of times in other threads here on the lounge i'm always the pacifist one in the discussion, the one always against violence even if everybody else things it is logical.

Why do you use this populist way of ridiculing my post?


Never have I said that i agreed with this murder or with any murder. I just say, and maybe you can react on that, that I don't find it reason to start thinking Holland is having a problem here.

People get killed, mainly for stupid reason, because somebody doesn't like them, because a spouse found another partner, because somebody is just on the wrong place, or, what we also saw in Holland because somebody said to some guys to stop driving around a parking place with a small motorbike all the time.
Personally, I can say I have lost a family member, in a stupid way.
I must say, I'm actually getting quite pissed at you for this post (for the first time that happened here on the lounge). I know you don't mean it that bad that is why I won't be mad for long, and give you chance to think about this again. I think you have a problem (I also saw this eg in docs death penalty threads) with seeing the difference between things like, 'cause', 'reason', 'why', and seeing things in perspective.


As I say again (I hope you will remember it this time) I disagree with all my heart with the murder on van Gogh (more so because as I also said before I hate religion related actions), but from all the murders that are comitted in Holland a year, this might have been the most logic one.

I mean if I go demonstrating and insulting people of one of your freedom armies (is that the term) I know the chance that I get killed is very big......that they are 100 % to blame for it, does not matter to me that much if I'm dead.


The guy that killed van Gogh is behind bars for the rest of his life, and right so. End of story.I don't want the actiosn of one idiot to change the social history of the netherlands.

[Occhidiangela]

Do you on purpose not understand me or are you really not able to read?

What do you think, eppie?

In several ocasions in this thread, and tens of times in other threads here on the lounge i'm always the pacifist one in the discussion, the one always against violence even if everybody else things it is logical.

*plays smallest violin in the world*

Why do you use this populist way of ridiculing my post?

Define what you mean by populist.

Never have I said that i agreed with this murder or with any murder. I just say, and maybe you can react on that, that I don't find it reason to start thinking Holland is having a problem here.

The problem wasn't Van gogh, it was his murder. He may have been an ass, or insensitive. So what? The world is filled with such people.

I mean if I go demonstrating and insulting people of one of your freedom armies (is that the term) I know the chance that I get killed is very big......that they are 100 % to blame for it, does not matter to me that much if I'm dead. The guy that killed van Gogh is behind bars for the rest of his life, and right so. End of story.I don't want the actiosn of one idiot to change the social history of the netherlands.

What is this freedom army thing? I do not understand the reference.

Your post appeared to present justifications for the murder of people with unpopular views and sentiments. I wanted to make sure of your position, as the slippery slope leads to censorship by the sword. You have now assured me of your position.

The "hate speech" and "hate crimes" and "you can't talk about the Holocaust in certain terms" censorship statues, in the US and Germany repsectively, and things like the "anti blashpemy statutes" in Denmark strike me as misguided attempts to drive both free speech and the presentation of inconvenient -- right or wrong -- points of view by making free speech in certain modes illegal. That is an explicit supression of freedom, to include the freedom to be wrong, and to make an ass of one's self in the process of spouting BS.

Look at Van Gogh's death as a political murder. When is Van Gogh's killer going to be released? Will it be the next time a plane is hijacked, or a Dutch soldier kidnapped by XXXX terrorist group, and an exchange of political prisoners demanded? If you haven't thought about that, you might want to. Many is the murderer who has been characterized as "political prisoner" (and the Greek Chorus of liberal useful idiots chimes in with agreement) by the activists, Muslims and otherwise. The playing field for such a farcical game includes Europe, and has for some decades. Israel isn't the only nation that has to deal with this.

Occhi

[eppie]

Look at Van Gogh's death as a political murder.
Occhi

You do what you like, the guy was not a politician, nor was he involved in political debates. He just insulted people on purpose. Not a JUSTIFICATION to kill him, but it can be a REASON for some nobrained idiot.


If I go to a discotheque and say to the bouncer that his mother is a prostitute he will smash my face in. Absolutely no JUSTIFICATION but for him a REASON. So even when I am really sure that his mother really is a prostitute I will not say it.
Is that a limitation in my freedom of speech? Probably, but it is also the way the world works. He will get his punishment...so the law is on my side...but I would never do it.


Again (this is getting really tiring) I absolutely despise the groups of muslim complaining and acting violent after every occasion they can find. For me it is even more difficult to agree with this things.Religious extremism and violence in your country is much more common. I just don't find this particular case worth the name terrorism. I'm mean we can call every murder terrorism form now on.....'thatguy once said he hated black people and now he is killed by one....terrorism.....or was it maybe just because he was a drugdealer?'

[Occhidiangela]

You do what you like, the guy was not a politician, nor was he involved in political debates.

You don't have to be a politician for the murder to be politically motivated.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

You don't have to be a politician for the murder to be politically motivated.

Occhi

For me... the motivation is clearly stated in the manifesto stabbed into his body with a knife. The text can be found here. The guy had a way of making people mad, yeah, and we agree he didn't deserve to die for being obnoxious, but this was still a terrorist act due to the way that if affected people (terrorized them) with free speech.

[Occhidiangela]

For me... the motivation is clearly stated in the manifesto stabbed into his body with a knife. The text can be found here. The guy had a way of making people mad, yeah, and we agree he didn't deserve to die for being obnoxious, but this was still a terrorist act due to the way that if affected people (terrorized them) with free speech.

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Politically motivated murder, political murder. Horses from the same barn.

Occhi

[Lissa]

Hi,
Ever consider the possibility that the information you were trying to get might have been classified? I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to lie through my teeth when someone asked me about something they were neither cleared for nor had a need to know.

But I would ask you to consider this: there are a lot of artificial satellites up there. Some of them do belong to agencies that prefer not to discuss their missions and methods. Decent quality optics are cheap. While I haven't been briefed on any secret surveillance systems, that doesn't mean that I'm going to assume there are none such. And I do know that sixteen satellites gives you almost complete coverage at about one hour intervals.

Nothing definite, but I'd be putting my money on the 'they're being tracked' side of the bet.

--Pete

This wasn't information I was actively seeking, this was information in the public domain that was being delivered to medical care institutions on how to deal with bio, chemical, and nuclear terrorism. So unless they were trying to make the situation sound far more grave for medical instituations than it actually was, I don't understand why the scare tactic then.

We've all heard the story about the boy who cried wolf. Same can happen with things like bio, chemical, and nuclear terrorism.

[kandrathe]

I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

Agreeing.

Politically motivated murder, political murder. Horses from the same barn.
Occhi

You say potato and I say taters... :) I always think of "politically motivated" as either to bolster or supress a particular political party in power. In this case, the motivation was more of a "send the infidels a message" regarding their so called "free" speech. If they can make people fear that free speech might be more expensive, then maybe fewer will be willing to risk paying the ultimate price.

[Taem]

The beginning of the end? Looks to me like a new holy war is about to start! Seems as if certian factions have just been waiting for any excuse to ignite the bickering into a full-fledged crusade. I'm sure when I go to church this Sunday, I'll get another one of those "near-the-end-of-days" speaches again.

By IRWAN FIRDAUS

PALU, Indonesia Sep 22, 2006 (AP)— Christian mobs torched cars, blockaded roads and looted Muslim-owned shops in violence touched off by Friday's executions of three Roman Catholics convicted of instigating attacks on Muslims.

Some 200 inmates escaped after mobs assaulted a jail in the town of Atambua, sending guards fleeing to the nearby jungle. By midday only 20 had been recaptured, deputy national police chief Lt. Gen. Adang Dorodjatun said, calling on the others to turn themselves in.

And on the island of Flores, the executed men's birthplace, machete-wielding mobs ran through the streets Friday, sending women and children running in panic, police and witnesses said.

Police and media reports said at least five people were hurt, including a prosecutor who was hospitalized with stab wounds.

Vice President Jusuf Kalla appealed for calm, saying the deaths of the three men had nothing to do with religion.

"It's a matter of law," he told reporters in the capital Jakarta. "If the people resent the law, we are doomed."

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks on Muslims in May 2000 that left at least 70 people dead.

Human rights workers say the men's 2001 trial was a sham, and that while it was possible the men took part in some of the violence, they almost certainly were not the leaders.

The men were taken before the firing squad at 12:15 a.m. (2:15 p.m. EDT Thursday), said a senior police officer who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Family members later said they had received confirmation of the deaths.

Palu, where the executions took place, was largely calm, with thousands of police standing on street corners and guarding markets and churches. But violence flared in the Sulawesi villages of Tentena and Lage, where hundreds of Christians rampaged after learning of the deaths.

Thousands also rallied in the eastern province of East Nusatenggara, home to many Roman Catholics, blockading roads and setting fire to government buildings, including a courthouse and a prosecutor's office.

Some 200 prisoners escaped in the town of Atambua, and only 20 had been recaptured by mid-afternoon, deputy national police chief Lt. Gen. Adang Dorodjatun said, calling on the others to turn themselves in.

In carrying out the death sentence, Indonesia ignored an appeal last month by Pope Benedict XVI to spare the men. A Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told the Italian news agency ANSA that news of the execution "was very sad and painful."

The European Union also criticized the executions; capital punishment is banned in the 25-member bloc.

"The presidency of the European Union has learned with disappointment that despite numerous expressions of concern by the EU to the Indonesian authorities, Indonesia has carried out executions in Central Sulawesi," said a statement issued Friday by Finland, which currently holds the EU presidency.

The case against the three had heightened tensions in the world's most populous Muslim nation and raised questions about the role religion played in punishing those allegedly behind the violence that swept Sulawesi province from 1998 to 2002, killing more than 1,000 people of both religions. Only a handful of Muslims were convicted, all for 15 years in prison or less.

The men told relatives and a priest during final prayers at their jail Thursday that they were innocent but ready to die.

Tibo's son, Robert, told Christian followers early Friday that his father "begged us not to be angry, not to seek revenge."

"He asked us to forgive those who did this to him. 'God blesses all of us,' he said.

The executions came amid an outcry in many Muslim nations about comments made by the pope on Islam. The pontiff last week cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman." He has since said he was "deeply sorry" about the reactions to his remarks and that they did not reflect his own opinions.

The condemned men had said they hoped investigations into the clashes would continue, noting that they had provided authorities with the names of 16 Christians who allegedly provoked some of the worst bloodshed.

The government says its probe is complete.

"It's useless for me to say anything now," said Tibo's son early Friday. "The government never listened to him when he was alive. They ignored everything."

Human rights activists said Muslim hardliners gathered at the court during the hearings, likely intimidating judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and witnesses.

"The men's lawyers received death threats, including a bomb planted at one lawyer's house and demonstrators armed with stones outside the courthouse demanded that the three be sentenced to death," said Isabelle Cartron of London-based Amnesty International.

Indonesia is a secular nation with the world's largest number of Muslims, about 190 million. In Sulawesi and several other eastern regions, Christian and Muslim populations are roughly equal.

Though violence in Sulawesi largely ended with the signing of a peace deal in 2002, there have been isolated incidents of violence since then, most blamed on Islamic militants.


Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[kandrathe]

The beginning of the end? Looks to me like a new holy war is about to start! Seems as if certian factions have just been waiting for any excuse to ignite the bickering into a full-fledged crusade. I'm sure when I go to church this Sunday, I'll get another one of those "near-the-end-of-days" speaches again.

I've come to expect idealogues and extremists to riot and kill each other. Actually, that is less disturbing to me than the Mexican woman who was dragged to death behind a car, or the multiple cases of wacko's kidnapping young girls to hold them in makeshift backyard bunkers as sex slaves. Or the torture and extrajudicial executions of hundreds in Iraq. Or this case of child abuse.

When I read this crap is when I see the world becoming a hell of our own making.

[Rinnhart]

If I may misquote Raoul Duke: "My advice to you is to start drinking heavily."

Occhi

Done and done.