The New Crusade

[eppie]

In their world, if you are a Christian or a Jew you have the option of living as an equal if you convert, or as a slave (Dhimmi) if you refuse to convert but pay a heavy tax, otherwise if you are a Pagan unbeliever you can (or some interpret should) be slaughtered as an animal. When you try to disagree with that philosophy they will ignore you as a demon inspired mongrel dog. In their teachings / beliefs, Islam is the height of civilization. So, how *messed up* is it that you are saying the Pope is crazy, while not saying anything about the Islamic clerics who are calling for the pope's death? You think he should grovel before the islamacists and apologize for saying that "violence is inconsistent with God"? With this view eppie, you will be one of those with a gun to your head, and a boot on your neck professing the blessing of Allah.

But what do you expect me to say about this islamacists? We just had the discussion aboput atheism, you now I have little to no respect for decissions made based on religion in general, especially when they concern violence. But what sense does it make that we here on the lounge just say are things about how stupid and uneducated and bad those people are.....last time I checked there are no islamic fundamentalists on the lounge.

Population and poverty are a part of the problem in some areas, however these are also issues in Latin America and Africa. Those nations which have been islamicized are markedly more violent. "At the end of 2003 the world's Catholic population was 1.086 billion, of 17.23 percent of the entire world population, Fides reports. The largest gains in Catholic population appeared in Africa and Latin America. -- CWNews.com"

In afrika the bloodiest conflicts were non ilslamic in nature (rwanda, Ivory coast, liberia), but that is not the point. But you show exactly how this religion/violence thinsg work. South americans don't have any religious reason to rebel against the western rich countries.....let us say the spanish have done a good job converting them all to catholicism using the sword.....is that what you mean?? Same as we did in africa by the way.
Muslim religion is theoretically not more or less violent then catholic religion....only at this moment all the morons are followers of muhamed coincedentely.
And as (you know me) I'am always trying to look for a solution instead of just saying how bad somebody is, I think ridiculing these peoples faith (I don't mean the pope by the way) is not going to work. At a certain point the people in those countries will realize that they are economically and socialy committing suicide with there special regulations based on religions....but even then the religion will remain. When 400 to 500 years ago science showed us the way to an advanced society religion just silently followed....knowing that in bad times they would get support again.:D

By the way...invading a country and causing the deaths of 1000ands of people does not help to put 'the west' in a positive picture.

However we also see that even someone as well off as OBL will turn to violence in the name of faith. There are somewhere between 1 and 1.5 BILLION Muslims living around the globe, so if there is an armed struggle it will be bad. I would also believe it might include the indirect support of certain "angry at the West, but non-Islamic" nations, like Venezuala, Cuba, or North Korea.

OBL is not a mulsim, he pretends to be to become powerful, just like GWB does with christianity, and also the pope with catholicism.

I have absolutely no reason to believe those countries would do such things....it is quite a bad thing to suggest even. I don't believe they have a strong history of invading countries...while they had no lack of enemies.

[kandrathe]

But what do you expect me to say about this islamacists? We just had the discussion aboput atheism, you now I have little to no respect for decissions made based on religion in general, especially when they concern violence. But what sense does it make that we here on the lounge just say are things about how stupid and uneducated and bad those people are.....last time I checked there are no islamic fundamentalists on the lounge.

Maybe it is against their fundamental religion to play Blizzard games.

In afrika the bloodiest conflicts were non ilslamic in nature (rwanda, Ivory coast, liberia), but that is not the point. But you show exactly how this religion/violence thinsg work. South americans don't have any religious reason to rebel against the western rich countries.....let us say the spanish have done a good job converting them all to catholicism using the sword.....is that what you mean?? Same as we did in africa by the way.

What role did Cuba play in destabilizing those African nations? Don't confuse empire building with religious zealotry. The Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, British, German, French colonializations from 400 years ago were done by morally bankrupt sailors who acted for the crown, but commited deceit, rape and murder for asuaging their lusts for women and gold. Yes, their is a blood stained history of Spanish and Portugeuse treatment of indigineous populations. But, primarily the largest murderous sin was the unintentional introduction of diseases like small pox. Do you want to remain guilty for those old crimes? More importantly, do we sit back the decendants of this guilt, and watch theocratic zealotry ignite the world. Should we merely be comforted by the fact that they will grow out of it in a century or so?

Muslim religion is theoretically not more or less violent then catholic religion....only at this moment all the morons are followers of muhamed coincedentely.

I would disagree. Much of the Quran advocates ideals that are inconsistent with western notions of freedom, and civility. It lends itself to fundamentalism.

And as (you know me) I'am always trying to look for a solution instead of just saying how bad somebody is, I think ridiculing these peoples faith (I don't mean the pope by the way) is not going to work. At a certain point the people in those countries will realize that they are economically and socialy committing suicide with there special regulations based on religions....but even then the religion will remain. When 400 to 500 years ago science showed us the way to an advanced society religion just silently followed....knowing that in bad times they would get support again.:D

How about the peaceful muslim leaders start by condemning terrorism, and homicide as a political solution?

By the way...invading a country and causing the deaths of 1000ands of people does not help to put 'the west' in a positive picture.

Why are you not similiarly outraged by the invasion of Kuwait which caused 1000's of Kuwaiti deaths? Where is your outrage over the millions killed in Sudan and Darfur? You may not agree with the US occupation of Iraq, but it came after lengthy attempts and numerous failures of other solutions. In some ways we are worse off, and in other ways we are better off with Saddam removed.

OBL is not a mulsim, he pretends to be to become powerful, just like GWB does with christianity, and also the pope with catholicism.

The difference is that OBL is an Islamic hero to 90% of the Islamic world.

I have absolutely no reason to believe those countries would do such things....it is quite a bad thing to suggest even. I don't believe they have a strong history of invading countries...while they had no lack of enemies.

Time will tell. Just my gut instinct, but I've been wrong sometimes.

[eppie]

I would disagree. Much of the Quran advocates ideals that are inconsistent with western notions of freedom, and civility.

Indeed, just like christianity did 1000 years ago....it is the interpretation that makes the relgion, especially seeing that they are all fairy tales.
The problem is that those countries in the middle east are lagging behind enormously in civilization. And as we saw with christianity, religion with follow civilization, not the other way around.
If we would get into a conflict with the muslim world, we are the only victims, we have everything to lose, for them it is normal life, they would probably be happy to give their life for the jihad.

(disclaimer, I still think that most (99%) of musklims are peaceful)

It lends itself to fundamentalism.How about the peaceful muslim leaders start by condemning terrorism, and homicide as a political solution?

Some of them do, but in many country they kill you when you do it.

Why are you not similiarly outraged by the invasion of Kuwait which caused 1000's of Kuwaiti deaths?

Same as before, I can start venting my outrage here, but what sense does that have, the US and other countries liberated Kuwait or not? End of story.

Where is your outrage over the millions killed in Sudan and Darfur?

Here indeed you have an important point. take India, a country with 1.2 billion people. Of which maybe 1 billion live in absolute poverty. Partly caused by the cast (?) system and incredible bad politics. We just trade with India and for us everyting is fine.......but for them it isn't, one day the masses in India might also take up arms. Being second class citizens in a world with satelites and internet is not nice.

You may not agree with the US occupation of Iraq, but it came after lengthy attempts and numerous failures of other solutions. In some ways we are worse off, and in other ways we are better off with Saddam removed.The difference is that OBL is an Islamic hero to 90% of the Islamic world.Time will tell. Just my gut instinct, but I've been wrong sometimes.

I know how you and me feel about the invasion in Iraq, but how would you feel if you were a (peaceful) muslim in those regions? I mean here in the west (the allies of GWB) we know that most of the reason to go in were fake, what do you think they know? (note: they don't get FOX network, just al jazeera).

The pope is also a here for catholics and GWB for the midwest US, I don't see much difference.
Cuba, North Korea and Venezuala, are at least countries that try (in their own way) to advance their society through science and economic plans, they have much to much to lose to ever even think about attacking the US, don't worry.

[Occhidiangela]

it is the interpretation that makes the relgion, especially seeing that they are all fairy tales.
economic plans, they have much to much to lose to ever even think about attacking the US, don't worry.

Indeed, when the Ritual (interpretation-sect-my flavor>yours) becomes more important than the Word (Faith, philosophy, Holy Words From The Burning Bush) you are no longer dealing in Faith or a constructive cultural binding force, you are dealing in politics. Part of the polity is the national and cultural legend bank that forms the baseline, the soil in which the culture cum civilization grows and thrives. The stories matter, and the stories are manipulated (Crusader, Jihadist, dirty commie, Red Devil, white devil) by the politicians.

Politics is the father of war, and has been since civilizations began to coalesce*. This behavior isn't likely to stop while genus homo sapiens draws breath: it is built in to the code. Call it a bug, call it a feature, it's there and defies the patching process.

Blizzard's Diablo series games, war games, as a metaphor for war and politics: I sorta like it.

Occhi

(I was going to say congeal or clot, but decided not to afterwards, though the image is apt.)

[kandrathe]

...
I know how you and me feel about the invasion in Iraq, but how would you feel if you were a (peaceful) muslim in those regions? I mean here in the west (the allies of GWB) we know that most of the reason to go in were fake, what do you think they know? (note: they don't get FOX network, just al jazeera).
...

I guess I would think "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. I should emigrate to Holland to escape these Imperialist war mongers, and where the bleeding heart Europeans will understand me and allow me to practice my 12th century beliefs without hinderance. Praise Allah! There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. Once we become a sizable minority, like in France, they will capitulate to fear of moslem agression and Allah will rule all. There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. We will use their own laws against them, and when the time is right we will implement Sharia. Ameen."

I guess my point is that the Jihad is a steam roller. You can empathize with it if you like.

[eppie]

I guess I would think "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. I should emigrate to Holland to escape these Imperialist war mongers, and where the bleeding heart Europeans will understand me and allow me to practice my 12th century beliefs without hinderance. Praise Allah! There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. Once we become a sizable minority, like in France, they will capitulate to fear of moslem agression and Allah will rule all. There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. We will use their own laws against them, and when the time is right we will implement Sharia. Ameen."

I guess my point is that the Jihad is a steam roller. You can empathize with it if you like.

A muslim that lives in Holland will withing hours see that everything is much better here, and that tehre is absolutely no reason to have such an oldfashioned way of looking at religion. Most second generation muslima in my city walk around like normal western girls, most of them a tad more trampy even.

This whole thing of fundamentalized muslims is something from the last few years, and if you ask me a vicius circle of media attention, outrage by westerners, stupid remarks and actions by a very small promillage of the muslim comunity.
This is the reason I always (although hating their way of thinking and acting) say we should overreacting, moronic bastards are everywhere in every group, treating every muslim in our country as being a potential terrorist will only make things worse. We had a good integration, most second and third generation muslim immigrants were perfectly dutch, and absolutely not extremistic. A part of the criminal (like all socioeconomic low groups), it is when the populist started screaming that things went worse.
And still in everyday life you don't notice anyhting......muslim extremism is great for the media to make money...

[Occhidiangela]

And still in everyday life you don't notice anyhting......muslim extremism is great for the media to make money...

When an ostrich leaves his head buried in the sand for too long, he tends to get buggered.

Occhi

[eppie]

When an ostrich leaves his head buried in the sand for too long, he tends to get buggered.

Occhi

Now that is not a very fair remark Occhi if you had been following this thread...which you have. If 'the muslims' were all as violent and crazy as we are told on TV we would have 100s off incidents every day in Holland...and in many other countries. Well that is not the case, even more so...nothing happens here. Well we rolled up this highly dangerous terrorist organisation.....which did actually not do anything...just some kids talking tough about how they would kill some people. I guess many people have in their lives expressed feelings about how they would like to kill somebody....of course this is just silly talk, not to be taken seriously at all.

[Lissa]

Well actually quite hard.

Quite wrong actually. It would be very easy to get a nuke into a port and detonate it. While ships are at sea, they are not tracked. Two ships could meet in open ocean and one could transfer a device to another ship and then the ship carrying the weapon could sail into a harbor without issue. Once arriving in the harbor, they could detonate, and if the weapon is large enough, do quite a bit of damage to cities like Boston, New York, Seattle, Los Angles, Houston, Miami, San Diego, and a variety of others that have large shipping traffic.

The problem is getting the weapon, the transport of said weapon is fairly easy.

[Occhidiangela]

While ships are at sea, they are not tracked.

As far as you know.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

A muslim that lives in Holland will withing hours see that everything is much better here, and that tehre is absolutely no reason to have such an oldfashioned way of looking at religion. Most second generation muslima in my city walk around like normal western girls, most of them a tad more trampy even.

This whole thing of fundamentalized muslims is something from the last few years, and if you ask me a vicius circle of media attention, outrage by westerners, stupid remarks and actions by a very small promillage of the muslim comunity.
This is the reason I always (although hating their way of thinking and acting) say we should overreacting, moronic bastards are everywhere in every group, treating every muslim in our country as being a potential terrorist will only make things worse. We had a good integration, most second and third generation muslim immigrants were perfectly dutch, and absolutely not extremistic. A part of the criminal (like all socioeconomic low groups), it is when the populist started screaming that things went worse.
And still in everyday life you don't notice anyhting......muslim extremism is great for the media to make money...

You want some examples, so here are some examples,

• Ghazala Khan - shot in the head by her brother (planned by the whole family) since her speedy marriage was an insult to family honor<>
  
• Theo Van Gogh - film maker, and you know the story<>
  
• Geert Wilders - Politician who is critical of Islamic extremism and is threatened daily <>
  
• MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Who along with Geert was targeted by two Hofstadgroep extremists with grenades in the parliment building<>
  
• Pizza courier 'targeted' Amsterdam sex zone - Bizzare yes, the courier is Abu Qataadah again connected with Hofstadgroep.<>
  [st]The article quoted below explains in great detail how the tolerance and multi-culturalism is exploited by islamic fundamentalists in not just Holland, but almost every European government.

  Muslim immigrants lived under Shari'a, and the Dutch government, fearing the appearance of racism, generally ignored the occasional rumors of honor killings and other injustices towards women. At the same time, the Dutch government permitted Muslims to run their own schools, a third of which are funded by Saudi Arabia. The spread of radical Islam through schools funded by Saudi oil is by now a well known story, but at the time the Dutch government was all too eager to let someone else foot the bill, and to allow the cultural self-segregation of Muslims to continue.Going Dutch?: Multiculturalism and Islam in Europe

  Check out;
  Londonistan (Hardcover) or
  Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis (Paperback)
  for some other views on how multiculturalism, and non-integration are creating enclaves of extremism throughout Europe.

[Ashock]

You want some examples, so here are some examples,

• Ghazala Khan - shot in the head by her brother (planned by the whole family) since her speedy marriage was an insult to family honor<>
  
• Theo Van Gogh - film maker, and you know the story<>
  
• Geert Wilders - Politician who is critical of Islamic extremism and is threatened daily <>
  
• MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Who along with Geert was targeted by two Hofstadgroep extremists with grenades in the parliment building<>
  
• Pizza courier 'targeted' Amsterdam sex zone - Bizzare yes, the courier is Abu Qataadah again connected with Hofstadgroep.<>
  [st]The article quoted below explains in great detail how the tolerance and multi-culturalism is exploited by islamic fundamentalists in not just Holland, but almost every European government. Check out;
  Londonistan (Hardcover) or
  Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis (Paperback)
  for some other views on how multiculturalism, and non-integration are creating enclaves of extremism throughout Europe.

Lest we forget Salman Rushdie for his "Satanic Verses" from some years back. Even then he acquired a nice price on his head for what, writing a book? Anyone who does not see something seriously wrong with this picture, should have their head examined. Everything boils down to "You don't like Islam, you must die". We better freaking wake up, or we will.


-A

[Lissa]

As far as you know.

Occhi

Unless the guy from the Navy was lying through his teeth, the ability to track commercial shipping while at sea is very difficult. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was atleast a Captain, stated that due to the sheer number of commercial vessels that in open ocean, it would be difficult to tell exactly where a ship is and when. He also mentioned that two ships rendezvousing could happen without anyone being the wiser. So as I said, unless he's lying through his teeth, it's difficult to track commercial shipping outside of when it leaves port and when it arrives in port.

[eppie]

Unless the guy from the Navy was lying through his teeth, the ability to track commercial shipping while at sea is very difficult. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was atleast a Captain, stated that due to the sheer number of commercial vessels that in open ocean, it would be difficult to tell exactly where a ship is and when. He also mentioned that two ships rendezvousing could happen without anyone being the wiser. So as I said, unless he's lying through his teeth, it's difficult to track commercial shipping outside of when it leaves port and when it arrives in port.

So the Lurker Lounge conclusion is: Nobody wants to commit a nuke attack on the us?

Or nobody can commit a nuke attack on the US?


Shipping the thing is a piece of cake so the obtaining of a device is the bottleneck?

But I thought all hostil axis of evil style states were making a-bombs by the dozen?


I'm confused....probably the alcohol.....damn that cheap good quality wine.

[Occhidiangela]

Unless the guy from the Navy was lying through his teeth, the ability to track commercial shipping while at sea is very difficult. I can't remember the guy's name, but he was atleast a Captain, stated that due to the sheer number of commercial vessels that in open ocean, it would be difficult to tell exactly where a ship is and when. He also mentioned that two ships rendezvousing could happen without anyone being the wiser. So as I said, unless he's lying through his teeth, it's difficult to track commercial shipping outside of when it leaves port and when it arrives in port.

Having been involved in Maritime Surveillance on a professional basis, I'll only comment that it depends on the ship(s), what body of water you are talking about, and what cues one has before leaving a given port. There is no such thing as a generic ship.

As to transfers on the high seas, they'd be more likely to be successfullly covert than similar events in port.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

So the Lurker Lounge conclusion is: Nobody wants to commit a nuke attack on the us?

Or nobody can commit a nuke attack on the US?
Shipping the thing is a piece of cake so the obtaining of a device is the bottleneck?

But I thought all hostil axis of evil style states were making a-bombs by the dozen?
I'm confused....probably the alcohol.....damn that cheap good quality wine.

What the Lounge consensus is will remain irrelevant unless better clarified or presented. Construct a well worded poll?

Keep drinking the wine, the antioxidants will prolong your life. :D

The probability of a nuke attack on the US is greater than 0 and less than 1. Where along that line it lies is open for speculation, and will likely remain so.

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

Unless the guy from the Navy was lying through his teeth, the ability to track commercial shipping while at sea is very difficult.

Ever consider the possibility that the information you were trying to get might have been classified? I can't begin to count the number of times I've had to lie through my teeth when someone asked me about something they were neither cleared for nor had a need to know.

But I would ask you to consider this: there are a lot of artificial satellites up there. Some of them do belong to agencies that prefer not to discuss their missions and methods. Decent quality optics are cheap. While I haven't been briefed on any secret surveillance systems, that doesn't mean that I'm going to assume there are none such. And I do know that sixteen satellites gives you almost complete coverage at about one hour intervals.

Nothing definite, but I'd be putting my money on the 'they're being tracked' side of the bet.

--Pete

[eppie]

[*]Theo Van Gogh - film maker, and you know the story
[*]Geert Wilders - Politician who is critical of Islamic extremism and is threatened daily
[*]MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Who along with Geert was targeted by two Hofstadgroep extremists with grenades in the parliment building

Because I notice a lack of good information here I will give you some backgrounds.

It is of course not neccesarry to state that I condemn all acts of muslim related crime....anyway, like I always said on these forums.


OK van Gogh, I don't know if you know the guy. He insulted people for fun....something that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. (you have the freedom to say everything you want, but you should have the wisdom not to say everything). Example, he (in a column in some journal) stated that a dutch jewish writer (I think it was Leon de Winter whos parents died in a concentration camp) had wet dreams where he was having sex with dying people in the gas chambers. (i didn't want to write this because I find it incredibly disgusting but I felt you needed to know these things). To other politicians he wished cancer after which his reader should go and take a piss on his grave. And with muslims he even went farther.


Anyway, his murder was not like the murder on let's say Martin Luther King, or Ghandi.......more than with terrorism it had more to do with hatred to him as a person, not to us, the dutch. That is why I personally refuse to see this murder as an act of terrorism, the fact was that he picked on somebody that wa stupid enough to care and not consider him as a stupid moron. The guy is in prison for life, his rightful punishment, but that is it.

Geert Wilders, 'creates' threads. whenever Wilders is not in the news for a few days, he says he has been threathened again.A very sad person that has absolutely nothing to do in politics, extremely populistic and just wanting to spread hatred.

Hirsi Ali was another of those people with a second agenda (becoming an important person), in her noble struggle for muslim women rights, she was actually just using insults. So although noble thoughts she was only reaching the opposite.....or maybe that was just what she wanted?. Anyway, she got send out of the country by a minister from her own party.....with whom she always found nice plans to send immigrants back to their war torn countries......problem was, she lied about her bacjkground before coming to holland, and her old friend (which is also quite a mental) send her away.


There are a few names of people who also have been threatened that were let's say quite normal, like the major of Amsterdam etc. I don't know if your news sources also have something about those people....or just about the most popular ones.:huh:


You have to realize that populists have big personal gains in making us believe there is a huge problem in Holland, I always think twice when I hear a news considering one of these persons.


(by the way I don't remember anything of anyone being targetted with grenades'

[Archon_Wing]

Politics is the father of war, and has been since civilizations began to coalesce*. This behavior isn't likely to stop while genus homo sapiens draws breath: it is built in to the code. Call it a bug, call it a feature, it's there and defies the patching process.

Blizzard's Diablo series games, war games, as a metaphor for war and politics: I sorta like it.

Occhi

Oh yes, who could forget the less than blatant insuations in Starcraft. The zerg, with their desire to crush (and convert) those not like them, massive indoctrination/propoganda by the overmind, and oh yea those infested Terrans. :o

[kandrathe]

Because I notice a lack of good information here I will give you some backgrounds.
...

Yes, I realize that these 3 people in particular brought the attention onto themselves by excercising their freedoms of speech. Theo in particular flaunted his boldness and audacity, then rode around Amsterdam without bodyguards. Was it a terroristic act? Yes, since it was a clear warning to others in Europe that there are "Sacred" cows, and if you cross the line (with them, and its their line) there will be consequences. Geert, also boldy speaks his mind, and in so doing makes himself a target. Does he deserve it? No. No more than any talking head or politician does for expressing an opinion. We can disagree, and we can turn off the tube or radio, but we never have the right to make death threats or execute them because of what someone says (even if its on film).

I believe Ayaan Hirsi Ali was poorly treated by her party and government. I think it has now been revealed that she actually did qualify for refugee status from her homeland. Good Salon article about her being outspoken. {note: you can read the whole article if you suffer through an advertisement}

Salon: Many have criticized your film as being too radical and too offensive.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The criticism of van Gogh was legitimate. But when someone is killed for his worldview, what he may have done wrong is no longer the issue. That's when we have to stand up for our basic rights. Otherwise we are just reinforcing the killer and conceding that there was a good reason to kill this person.

There are similiarly insulting and controversial people in America, we tend not to kill them or allow them to be killed just for being outspoken.