Any Metal Gear Solid series fans here?

[Hammerskjold]

Specifically on Metal Gear Solid 2. I guess before I get into it I should toss in some info \small talk. (Warning spoiler)

I think Hideo Kojima is a clever designer\creator. Sometimes to the point of being mischievous, this is the guy who created this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boktai after all. There's something diabolical, genius, or geniusly diabolical about making a portable game that uses sunlight. Considering that from what I've seen, despite the tag of portability most portable gaming still happens indoors. (Some glare\contrast problems with display screens and things like weather resistance is still a factor.)

So looking at his games, I get the impression that he's the type of guy who plays on multiple levels. One level being the players head and their (pre) conception. The first Metal Gear Solid on first impression, looks like a typical actioner, hyper macho one secret agent vs many, throw in some James Bond type roster of villains, some nukes and gunplay, and there ya go. I remember when it first came out the first things my friends commented was how they can sneak and kill enemy commandos etc. It wasn't the only thing they talked about the game later on, but it was usually the first thing. Later on however, to me it was more and more like someone's idea of a trojan horse. Like a sexy, blockbuster war movie that is actually anti war.

So enough rambling, I'll get to it. In MGS 2, am I the only one that got the impression that the Raiden mission was all VR, and that the ultimate act of 4th wall breaking was the many hints that the game itself was a form of VR\S3. Personally I think it was quite smart (or smart ass to some people) that Kojima was able to say that Raiden is both the player and not the player. The closest analogy I can think of right now is the movie 'NeverEnding Story', the part when the boy keeps saying it's not real, they can't be talking about me, it's just a story etc.

So my question is, if the Raiden mission was all VR, when did it end as a simulation? Was Rose in the end the real Rose or was it still the simulation going?

[Mithrandir]

I loved MGS2 and played it to death (I tried my darndest to get a perfect 100% completion on Substance), but that game was just plain weird. My interpretation was that the Raiden mission was "real" and that the strange VR element towards the end was just Raiden fighting off his Patriots-induced indoctrination. He had been forced to spend almost his entire time in VR specifically so that the Patriots could create a soldier incapable of discerning the difference between VR and reality so that he would therefore absolutely fearless.

I really felt as though Kojima made MGS2's story complicated just for the sake of being complicated - it didn't really make me think or be introspective at all, just sort of scratch my head and say "huh?". I don't see why you need a giant Metal Gear (i.e. Arsenal Gear) protected by a mass-produced army of Metal Gear REXs to monitor and alter the flow of information through the internet, but whatever.

Dead Cell has to be some of the coolest villains in any video game ever, though.

[Hammerskjold]

>My interpretation was that the Raiden mission was "real" and that the strange VR element towards the end was just Raiden fighting off his Patriots-induced indoctrination. He had been forced to spend almost his entire time in VR specifically so that the Patriots could create a soldier incapable of discerning the difference between VR and reality so that he would therefore absolutely fearless.

Good point, I'm also not against the idea that it was a mixture of both. As in, Arsenal Gear is real, but there was things that happened during the Raiden mission that was either VR or some sort of hallucination.

>I don't see why you need a giant Metal Gear (i.e. Arsenal Gear) protected by a mass-produced army of Metal Gear REXs to monitor and alter the flow of information through the internet, but whatever.

It was RAYs wasn't it? My interpretation on that is Arsenal Gear might have a vulnerability when it's engaged in shorter range. It might not be able to do a counter attack without harming itself. Iirc it has the int4rweb thing, and long distance weapons like missiles. Arsenal might need RAYs in case someone say drop a few REXs\REX derivatives on them. If that happens, Arsenal might not be able to launch those missiles in defense because at that range it can also harm Arsenal Gear itself. Like using a flamethrower to burn off leeches from your body instead of a bic lighter. Or possibly due to other reasons, ie: using those big missiles at close range could alert someone of Arsenal's presence.

[[wcip]Angel]

We get *that*, but what's the connection between online flow of information and the need for lots of battle tanks?

[Hammerskjold]

>We get *that*, but what's the connection between online flow of information and the need for lots of battle tanks?

Maybe I don't understand you or the question correctly. Are you talking about Arsenal or the RAYs? Since as far as I remember RAY has nothing to do with the internet parts.

[Mithrandir]

>We get *that*, but what's the connection between online flow of information and the need for lots of battle tanks?

Maybe I don't understand you or the question correctly. Are you talking about Arsenal or the RAYs? Since as far as I remember RAY has nothing to do with the internet parts.

Exactly. Why do you need an army of giant robots to control the internet? It makes no sense.

[Hammerskjold]

>Exactly. Why do you need an army of giant robots to control the internet? It makes no sense.


Before things get confusing, you're talking about the RAYs and not Arsenal yes? If that's the case, then iirc Arsenal is the one with the internet hookups, not RAY. Agreed so far no? RAY is needed for the defense of Arsenal, yes? There is no direct connection between RAY and controlling the net, not that I said that in the first place, but just to clarify things.

If you meant that there's probably more efficient means of controlling\altering the Net than using something like Arsenal, I'd probably agree with you. But I'm content to suspend some disbelief considering the genre. It wouldn't be much of a sci-fi military espionage game imo if it was infiltrating a bunch of computers housed in Joeschmoe's basement.

[Urza-DSF]

Actually, this could go back to your first idea about it all being in VR, and tying all of that into something very... Gibson-esque. The giant tanks are that way because that is their icon, or the visual interpritation of the program when cyberspace is slowed to allow human minds to comprehend it. So in all possibility what you see as rockets firing or legs stomping is just a visual analogy of the programs defenses trying to take down your system, AKA your mind (since I'm supposing the VR works via some form of neural hookup).

At least thats what just occured to me, its been ages since I've played MGS2

Edit: Spelling