BC: The End of UI-Mods like Decursive

[nobbie]

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UI mods and the Burning Crusade

Hi there, this notification is meant to inform you of some significant changes regarding the way we're handling UI addons. Over the last few years, we've seen a number of awesome, gameplay-enhancing UI mods along with a fair number of UI mods that run counter to our philosophies regarding what addons should and shouldn't be able to do.

Essentially, we don't want UI mods to make combat-sensitive decisions for players and as such, we've made some changes that block functionality that we feel is counter to the spirit of these philosophies. As such, AddOns and macros can't make decisions on who to target or what spells to cast.

That being said, our programmers have implemented a host of new functionality in order to allow many popular and benign UI mods to continue to function (once those mods are updated to take advantage of the new functionality), and will be providing some follow-up information on these forums as to how to take advantage of the new functionality.

Just to clarify, AddOns and macros will still be able to cast spells (with user interaction of course), they just won't be able to use logic to intelligently pick spells or targets.

Full nitty gritty details available in the upcoming changes thread:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...=15401595&sid=1
Note that this thread is not a general discussion thread and is moderated!

[Raelynn]

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Lots of people are complaining about these changes, and to an extent, I can somewhat see the validity of the concerns of the healers. Burnout was pretty common before and the mods did help a small bit. These mods are far from necessary though (my brother plays a priest and he never uses decursive or emergency monitor).

However, there were mods that created too great an inbalance for some classes, mostly in PvP (which is the big reason I rarely PvP). The devs never really wanted mods to make decisions for the players.

The one thing that I will miss is my ZHC macro, which checks if the cooldown is finished, and if the mobs is greater than 30% health, then triggers the trinket and casts shadowbolt. It'll be somewhat possible, but not nearly as clean (might require multiple clicks) and it won't be able to check for the health level.

[nobbie]

I think the biggest complains come from paladins, who are - according to their players - now severly affected in their hybrid role in raids.

[Rinnhart]

I think the biggest complains come from paladins, who are - according to their players - now severly affected in their hybrid role in raids.

Dispelling is boring. No one cares how many debuffs you dispell, dispelling doesn't get any mods, it doesn't even have a satisfying animation. It's the worst part of a bland job, and they insist on making it unnecessarily tedious.

For good measure, the classes dispelling mattered against are getting counters, while the paladins get MORE EFFICIENCY and frisbees (granted, if you used decursive in pvp, you were a hoser, anyways).

[Arnulf]

Dispelling is boring. No one cares how many debuffs you dispell, dispelling doesn't get any mods, it doesn't even have a satisfying animation. It's the worst part of a bland job, and they insist on making it unnecessarily tedious.

For good measure, the classes dispelling mattered against are getting counters, while the paladins get MORE EFFICIENCY and frisbees (granted, if you used decursive in pvp, you were a hoser, anyways).

Go and play a paladin while fighting Chromaggus. Woe the poor soul who uses Decursive (or a similar tool) here! Dispelling your fellow raiders is not a trivial job here.

And now, you can cast Dispell on a target, and if there is nothing to dispell, it will not cost any mana (global half second cooldown only).

So I'm wondering what the paladins are complaining about?

I, for one, am not complaining.

[MongoJerry]

Go and play a paladin while fighting Chromaggus. Woe the poor soul who uses Decursive (or a similar tool) here! Dispelling your fellow raiders is not a trivial job here.

Huh? Why would you not use Decursive here? Chromaggus is one of those fights that seems built around the idea that everyone has Decursive. That's been one of my complaints. I resisted using Decursive for more than six months and then finally broke down and got it, when it became clear that Blizzard was designing encounters around it.

granted, if you used decursive in pvp, you were a hoser, anyways

Why wouldn't you use decursive in PvP? It works well when used right and set up correctly. If you say that a person shouldn't use it because it's "dishonorable" or some baloney like that, then I'll just have to simply say that Decursive is allowed and enabled by Blizzard's own UI/modding scheme and does not benefit one side more than the other.

[Jester]

Huh? Why would you not use Decursive here? Chromaggus is one of those fights that seems built around the idea that everyone has Decursive. That's been one of my complaints. I resisted using Decursive for more than six months and then finally broke down and got it, when it became clear that Blizzard was designing encounters around it.
Why wouldn't you use decursive in PvP? It works well when used right and set up correctly. If you say that a person shouldn't use it because it's "dishonorable" or some baloney like that, then I'll just have to simply say that Decursive is allowed and enabled by Blizzard's own UI/modding scheme and does not benefit one side more than the other.

Being a "hoser" pretty much means you're a little lame, not that you're a cheatin' varmint who should be chased out of the game. Just because it's not cheating or game-breaking doesn't mean it's not cheese.

And, clearly, Blizzard is unhappy wth the way "[their] own UI/modding scheme" is working, indicating that they agree with this assesment. It sucks, and it shouldn't be in the game.

As to whether they are designing encounters around decursive or not, if people are successfully killing Chromaggus without decursive, why would that then count as evidence that it is necessary?

-Jester

[teske]

As to whether they are designing encounters around decursive or not.

To quote Slouken http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...20536&sid=1#305

Sort of off topic, but yes, the designers no longer have to account for decursive-style addons in their dungeon design, which was one of the biggest driving factors for these changes.

[Rinnhart]

Why wouldn't you use decursive in PvP? It works well when used right and set up correctly. If you say that a person shouldn't use it because it's "dishonorable" or some baloney like that, then I'll just have to simply say that Decursive is allowed and enabled by Blizzard's own UI/modding scheme and does not benefit one side more than the other.

Because I don't need to. Because dispelling fire vulnerability off the flag carrier is a waste of mana when the priest's sheeped. Because the abuse of decursive in pvp has lead to the new dispell-countering talents.

PvE, sure; #$%& fight design makes it necessary. PVP, it's a crutch and, often, unnecessary.

This is at least the third Decursive discussion.

Arnulf, I am a paladin.

[Arnulf]

Arnulf, I am a paladin.

Yes, I know.

Well, I want to explain why I think the opposite of Decursive regarding fights like Chromaggus.

When our raid does Chromaggus, he is pulled from his cell under the large doorway that leads to the next room. Most of the raid is stationed on the left wall (looking from the large room) and just out of line of sight. When doing damage, the artillery (mages, warlocks, hunters) are moving away from the wall. When the breathes are coming (someone announces them over TS) they're going back and hug the wall.

Two groups, off-warriors and rogues, are stationed on the other side of the archway. Along with a mage, a druid, a priest, and a paladin. When I'm on duty on that side, I have to dispell that druid, mage, priest, the rogues, and the off-warriors. When I was still using Decursive (a long time ago) it usually would select the wrong target. I would get nothing done except a message that that target is not reachable.

So, what I'm doing is to pull out the warriors and the rogues from the raid and have an eye on the druid, the priest, and the mage on my side. When not afflicted by bronze I am only dispelling and not healing anything. Also I have to dispell myself from the blue affliction first, since it eats my mana. While I can at least once use stoneform to get myself rid of a desease and/or poison.

I have witnessed that all of my mana was used up in a Chromaggus fight just with dispelling alone.

Similar rules apply when I'm dispelling on the artillery side. With some slight changes however. I am watching out for blue so that I can dispell paladins and priests faster on that side. What I am trying to say is that Decursive is more of a bane than a boon in this fight. I'm not on top of things right now about the utility of the newest Decursive. But I guess you can define priority lists etc. But still I wouldn't use it.

Another small example. Our raid has still issues with the bug trio in Ahn'Qiraj. Fearing, poison volleys, and random charges are still a good way to kill morale and the fight deteriorates into a heap of chaos.:)One of our priests had the idea that we assign at least one druid or paladin to a group. And that their responsibility is to dispell only that group of poison. Suddenly it worked!

[Rinnhart]

Newer versions of decursive have easily configurable priority lists that greatly help in situations like what you describe. But yes, it is definately a tool suited for volume cleansing, not precision- thus my abhorrence of it in PvP.

Now, I want to start raiding again. Dangit.

[Jester]

That's a subtly different matter.

It's one thing to say "we can't make an encounter with a certain type of decursing challenge, because it'll be blown away by decursive." This means that Blizzard is limited in their ability to design encounters.

It's another to say "aha, well, players can beat this encounter even though it contains retardedly difficult decursing, since they all have decursive." This means that all players either need decursive, or need to abandon all hope of progressing.

Is there an encounter that can't be beaten without decursive? I've not yet been to AQ40 or Naxx, so I'm not sure (and am a mere warrior anyway). From my limited experience, I think Blizzard is thinking the first, not the second.

-Jester

[vor_lord]

It's one thing to say "we can't make an encounter with a certain type of decursing challenge, because it'll be blown away by decursive." This means that Blizzard is limited in their ability to design encounters.

You mean limited in their ability to make really really stupid lame encounters?

Please, oh please... do not make us an encounter that decursive makes too easy. People make fun of the 'whack-a-mole' aspect that raid healing occasionally takes on, but it is dispelling that is really that way. Volume dispelling encounters suck. They just suck. If the removal of decursive is to make even more stupid dispel spam encounters... bleh.

[Zarathustra]

Is there an encounter that can't be beaten without decursive?

No.

[Raelynn]

No.

I've heard noth is nearly impossible, but no words as to actually possibility.

[MongoJerry]

Is there an encounter that can't be beaten without decursive? I've not yet been to AQ40 or Naxx, so I'm not sure (and am a mere warrior anyway). From my limited experience, I think Blizzard is thinking the first, not the second.

That's the wrong question. Dialbo II's Act I could be beaten by a naked sorceress with no stat or skill points assigned -- and all the way up though the last boss in Act V as shown by someone in the Basin --, but that doesn't mean that the game was designed for that. One *can* beat all encounters in the game without Decursive, but if you try to tell me that Chromaggus, Viscidus, and Noth weren't designed with Decursive in mind, I'll call you nuts.

Because I don't need to. Because dispelling fire vulnerability off the flag carrier is a waste of mana when the priest's sheeped. Because the abuse of decursive in pvp has lead to the new dispell-countering talents.

Well, yeah, stupid people will always use tools stupidly. You always have the choice to override Decursive's target algorithms by simply selecting the player you want it to dispell first just like you normally would. On the other hand, if you see someone getting dotted up or sheeped, you can quickly hit Decursive to remove it without taking the extra time to select the player before dispelling him or her.

[Rinnhart]

That's the wrong question. Dialbo II's Act I could be beaten by a naked sorceress with no stat or skill points assigned -- and all the way up though the last boss in Act V as shown by someone in the Basin --, but that doesn't mean that the game was designed for that. One *can* beat all encounters in the game without Decursive, but if you try to tell me that Chromaggus, Viscidus, and Noth weren't designed with Decursive in mind, I'll call you nuts.

Nicely stated.

Well, yeah, stupid people will always use tools stupidly. You always have the choice to override Decursive's target algorithms by simply selecting the player you want it to dispell first just like you normally would. On the other hand, if you see someone getting dotted up or sheeped, you can quickly hit Decursive to remove it without taking the extra time to select the player before dispelling him or her.

Right back into crazyland.

Here's your reading material. You know how to roll characters- go play a warlock (or please, please say you already have one. That would be the cherry on this sundae of missing the point).

[Flymo]

I don't understand why anyone uses Decursive when CTRA has all (as far as I know) of its functionality.

[Delc]

I don't understand why anyone uses Decursive when CTRA has all (as far as I know) of its functionality.

The /racure in CTRA is junk compared to decursive. I stopped using it after it got stuck on the same out of range person on Chromaggus all the time. Decursive does range/LOS checking before it trys to cure people. That and I don't use any raid mods anymore, except for raid frames.

[lfd]

if you try to tell me that Chromaggus, Viscidus, and Noth weren't designed with Decursive in mind, I'll call you nuts.

Well, yes - the thought was probably "You know what, guys? Decursive is really going to make this fight a lot simpler. That's a shame, isn't it? We should get the UI scripting team to look at ways to prevent it working without breaking all the other addons that don't play the game for you".

If you try to tell me that they specifically designed encounters for people that had Decursive or Decursive-like mods installed, I'll call you nuts. Can I be pistachio?