Burning Crusade Beta Patch 2.0.2.6144

[Zarathustra]

Don't weapon procs' PPM stay the same regardless of attack speed? Which would make Flurry, Counterweights, etc. actually increase the procrate? With catform's lightning fast attack speed, I think someone could make a case for an 8 second stun proc being overpowered as hell in that case:)

If the ppm is the same regardless of attack speed... shouldn't you get the exact same number of procs if the weapon is hitting once per second as you would hitting every 3? And isn't a 3% increase amounting to the same thing in either of those cases?

[Kevin]

If the ppm is the same regardless of attack speed... shouldn't you get the exact same number of procs if the weapon is hitting once per second as you would hitting every 3? And isn't a 3% increase amounting to the same thing in either of those cases?

OK if you have a 2.0 speed weapon with a 5 PPM, you are looking at 16 2/3% chance per swing to get a proc. If you get a flurry buff, you still have a 16.6% chance to get a proc on each of those flurry swings even though those swings are faster. If with a druid getting procs it treats the cat attack speed like it does flurry you still have a 16.6% chance to get a proc per attack, but you get twice as many attacks to get that proc. It gets worse and worse the slower the weapon is.

Now if they do the PPM calcs based of the druid cat speed, the calcs are a 1.0 speed weapon with 5 PPM and you only have an 8.3% chance to get a proc on each attack. I have a feeling that isn't what blizzard did and that is why things were broken. I think just left the chance calcs work off the equiped weapon but that weapon was swinging a lot faster and giving you a lot more proc chances.

[Zarathustra]

Now if they do the PPM calcs based of the druid cat speed, the calcs are a 1.0 speed weapon with 5 PPM and you only have an 8.3% chance to get a proc on each attack. I have a feeling that isn't what blizzard did and that is why things were broken.

You may have just hit the nail on the head. It seems standard Blizzard practice nowadays to treat the symptom and not the problem. Wouldn't surprise me if the procs on weapons were balanced on weapon speed only, rather than actual attack speed.

*sighs*

[Kevin]

You may have just hit the nail on the head. It seems standard Blizzard practice nowadays to treat the symptom and not the problem. Wouldn't surprise me if the procs on weapons were balanced on weapon speed only, rather than actual attack speed.

*sighs*

I know they are based on weapon speed right now. I know that flurry will grant you more procs than if you didn't have it. There are data sets out there that show this pretty well and I don't have a problem with that. It gives those people who spec to get more speed a little more edge. I'm fine with that. And all they would need to do for druids is just consider the enchant or proc to be on the natural weapons, the claws, of the forms to fix it, but since it doesn't work that way now for anything else I doubt they changed it for druids, hence the problems.

But yeah, Blizzard likes band aids (50% global physical resist in D2 anyone...) they always have. Or at least pretty much any initial solution to a problem is of this nature. But often times they simply leave it at that and never get to the root. WoW has been better about this, but it still shows.

[Ruvanal]

I know they are based on weapon speed right now. I know that flurry will grant you more procs than if you didn't have it. There are data sets out there that show this pretty well and I don't have a problem with that. It gives those people who spec to get more speed a little more edge. I'm fine with that. And all they would need to do for druids is just consider the enchant or proc to be on the natural weapons, the claws, of the forms to fix it, but since it doesn't work that way now for anything else I doubt they changed it for druids, hence the problems.

But yeah, Blizzard likes band aids (50% global physical resist in D2 anyone...) they always have. Or at least pretty much any initial solution to a problem is of this nature. But often times they simply leave it at that and never get to the root. WoW has been better about this, but it still shows.

And this is where the root of the problem is and why they will not have a quick fix for it. When the enchant is put on the weapon, the game at that time computes the chance to proc based on the ppm of the enchant and the base weapon speed and then is just storing that chance as part of the weapons data structure. Once the player is in feral form and attacking the game has no real link back to what the enchant was on the weapon to recalculate a new chance for the procs per swing, it just has do effect Y on X% of swings.

The storage of multiple effects on the items would be prohibative since the enchants can be placed on items that are not bound to any player and therefore to cover it that way would require doing such storage for all items. Likewise doing a storage of the base enchant and needing to to refigure that proc chance in fight would potentially cause a too large of a processor overhead to keep rereferencing the code to keep recomputing the chance on every swing.

[Zarathustra]

More development. Seems they're putting the potions and procs BACK IN...
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...&sid=1&pageNo=6

Hi everybody :-)

We have some answers for you regarding the two first questions about consumables and weapon procs in forms, which is currently one of the major issues you have been posting about recently:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:

1- Usease of consumables in forms:
Why restrain the feral druids from using such an important aspect of the game? The developers think it'll overpower druids in any form in concrete or is it purely to avoid druids to stick to one form for too long thus making the druid lose some of the "shifting" ability? Is this definate or still in testing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The fact that Druids in the beta test could use consumables and items while being shapeshifted was a bug. It was an unforeseen side effect of the original intent, which was to allow for Druids to interact with NPCs while being shapeshifted.

However, the developers do like the idea of consumables being used while in Druid forms, but the above mentioned bug prevented a proper implementation of this ability, which would otherwise allow shapeshifted Druids to use certain consumables such as Rage and Healing Potions, Thistle Tea and Healthstones. The developers are currently evaluating which items they want Druids to be able to use while in forms, and as soon as all issues are resolved, it will be reintroduced into the game.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:

2- Weapon procs in feral
The most commonly asked is the enchant "crusader", but as we all know, the ramifications are much deaper than only just that enchant. Most people say its incoherent to lose weapon procs based on the fact that we dont "use" the weapon but we still use its stats and still have to repair the weapon... Question is, what is the reasoning behind the weapon proccing in forms, the 1.0s fast attack rate or the added dps from WF totems (for example), would put the feral druid out of the proportion blizzard intends for out estimated dps?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Similarly with the use of consumables while being shapeshifted, the developers like the idea of allowing weapons with procs to be used by Druids being in forms. As with consumables, they developers are currently evaluating which weapons with procs should be usable by shapeshifted druids. When the evaluation is complete and all possible issues have been resolved, this will be introduced to the game.

That is it for now, but we will hopefully soon have more feedback for you regarding your other questions. :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Behold! Witness the glory of my epic beer container... More commonly known as The epic Mug of Vaneras : http://epicmug.ytmnd.com/

The interesting thing is that they're still calling it a bug, now as a "side effect of being able to talk to NPCs." How does that explain the new animations?

[Watto44]

More development. Seems they're putting the potions and procs BACK IN...
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...&sid=1&pageNo=6
The interesting thing is that they're still calling it a bug, now as a "side effect of being able to talk to NPCs." How does that explain the new animations?

You see kiddies, this is why you should never use misinformation to cover your mistakes: you just end up digging a deeper hole and looking more and more ridiculous. (It also doesn't explain the changes to thistle tea or rage potions either.)

That explanation is so ridiculous, so hilarious, that I wonder if Blizzard is a large company or a carnival act. On the plus side, I'm too amused to be angry about it.:)

Still, it will be nice if they implement this stuff, but my breath will not be held, I'm telling you that much.

[Kevin]

You see kiddies, this is why you should never use misinformation to cover your mistakes: you just end up digging a deeper hole and looking more and more ridiculous. (It also doesn't explain the changes to thistle tea or rage potions either.)

That explanation is so ridiculous, so hilarious, that I wonder if Blizzard is a large company or a carnival act. On the plus side, I'm too amused to be angry about it.:)

Still, it will be nice if they implement this stuff, but my breath will not be held, I'm telling you that much.

I think what they want you to buy is that they always wanted to implement consumables and procs; hence the animations, and text changes, but that they shouldn't have been in the game yet and only were in because of some bizzaro thing with talking to NPC's in forms.

I don't buy it, but I think the is the pill they want us to swallow.

[Brista]

And this is where the root of the problem is and why they will not have a quick fix for it. When the enchant is put on the weapon, the game at that time computes the chance to proc based on the ppm of the enchant and the base weapon speed and then is just storing that chance as part of the weapons data structure. Once the player is in feral form and attacking the game has no real link back to what the enchant was on the weapon to recalculate a new chance for the procs per swing, it just has do effect Y on X% of swings.

The storage of multiple effects on the items would be prohibative since the enchants can be placed on items that are not bound to any player and therefore to cover it that way would require doing such storage for all items. Likewise doing a storage of the base enchant and needing to to refigure that proc chance in fight would potentially cause a too large of a processor overhead to keep rereferencing the code to keep recomputing the chance on every swing.

That's a very interesting explanation, Ruvunal

If they do re-introduce procs I wonder if they will solve this issue or whether we will see Druids rushing out to put Crusader on 3.80 or slower weapons

[Artega]

I don't buy it, but I think the is the pill they want us to swallow.

Blizzard uses suppositories, not pills.

[Warlock]

That's a very interesting explanation, Ruvunal

If they do re-introduce procs I wonder if they will solve this issue or whether we will see Druids rushing out to put Crusader on 3.80 or slower weapons

Omen of Clarity procs about the same for Bear autoattack and Cat autoattack. So this doesn't seem an insoluble issue:)

Swipe counting as a melee hit against each target and therefore being able to proc should probably be looked at if Druids do get weapon procs and enchants. Fully talented (Omen + Primal Rage) swipespam is already very strong and I've heard that it will soon scale with AP.

[Watto44]

Omen of Clarity procs about the same for Bear autoattack and Cat autoattack. So this doesn't seem an insoluble issue:)

However, it didn't always. If you cast your mind back, when they changed omen of clarity so it worked in feral forms they also changed it from a weapon buff to a normal buff. My guess is that they used that to work around their dodgy PPM mechanics.

[Ruvanal]

Omen of Clarity procs about the same for Bear autoattack and Cat autoattack. So this doesn't seem an insoluble issue:)

Swipe counting as a melee hit against each target and therefore being able to proc should probably be looked at if Druids do get weapon procs and enchants. Fully talented (Omen + Primal Rage) swipespam is already very strong and I've heard that it will soon scale with AP.

Omen of Clarity also gives back 3 different results (mana, rage, energy) depending on what form the caster is in. That points that the proc chance can be set up under 3 different sets of code depending on the form of the druid. Code that is inherent to only druids when used. That is not the type of general code that is getting used for the various weapon weapon enchants that are getting used by all classes in the game.