More on Warlocks in the Expansion

[Quark]

Blizzard seem driven to balance class populations whereas I feel there are far more important things to worry about like class balance and faction population

I don't really think they are. Back when everyone was first screaming about how "weak" warlocks were, Blizzard was nerfing fear. I think it's that the population tends to the classes that are stronger and easier.

Warriors were only relatively popular because of their archetype and the fact that they're easy. They became incredibly popular once people realized just how powerful they were.

[Malakar]

Back on the topic of the imps doing crazy DPS, I just decided to spec imp for fun.

I must say it's much better for grinding than the felguard, by far. My imp makes up the lion's share of my DPS, I just worry about mana feeding and health funneling him. My drain life DPS and the one shadowbolt I manage to get off is just icing. I'm clocking 475 dps in 400 spell damage gear, with very little downtime. I'm talking in the 3-5 second range here, just enough to funnel my imp, and life tap while I'm running to the next mob.

PVP wise, it's not as powerful as other pets/specs when getting jumped. My imp tanks mobs, so if I'm fighting a mob, I can't just ignore the mob while my dots tick away like I can as affliction. The mob will surely kill my imp if I make it attack the player. There have been many situations in which I wished I were affliction with my felhunter or succubus out.

On the other hand, if I decide to gank people, or get revenge on someone who I find and get the jump on from behind... this imp is absolutely ridiculous. I got back at a shaman just a minute ago - after he healed himself to max after he killed a mob, I laid into him from behind... and he just stood there while he died. He either died before he had time to react, or he thought two people were attacking him due to the DPS and he just gave up.:lol:

I think that the buff to imp DPS was overboard, not that they didn't need a buff. Imps benefiting from spell damage was needed, along with mana feed. The problem is that they benefit too much from spell damage.

This is along the same lines as hunter pets needed to scale with gear, but didn't need to peel mobs off of MTs.:blink:

[Artega]

I don't really think they are. Back when everyone was first screaming about how "weak" warlocks were, Blizzard was nerfing fear. I think it's that the population tends to the classes that are stronger and easier.

Warriors were only relatively popular because of their archetype and the fact that they're easy. They became incredibly popular once people realized just how powerful they were.

They were also the only viable raid tank.

[Warlock]

They were also the only viable raid tank.

Also the only raid viable hybrid.

[Brista]

I don't really think they are. Back when everyone was first screaming about how "weak" warlocks were, Blizzard was nerfing fear. I think it's that the population tends to the classes that are stronger and easier.

Warriors were only relatively popular because of their archetype and the fact that they're easy. They became incredibly popular once people realized just how powerful they were.

I'm not sure which nerf you're referring to. I seem to remember at one time they introduced diminishing returns which was quite a nerf. But it was a nerf because some little monster could Fear another player forever or at least until they powered their PC off or control F4ed

That's not a balance nerf, it's a fix to something which is working in a way they don't like

I think the developers attitude and the players attitude are wildly at variance because they look at different things. To the developers seeing Naxx raids load up on dps warriors and leave the hunters at home was clearly an issue. I think what they've striven for in TBC is to make as many classes and specs fully raid-viable and they're not particularly concerned with any transitional pains it may have on the servers' current populations (such as servers where 15% of the level 60s are dps warriors in a game where now more than one dps warrior in a 25 man raid is pushing it). In the past, seeing end-game guilds all insist on Warriors because they're 5% better than the next best tanking class was an issue because it meant that classes that had been designed to tank couldn't

To the players however the game is about change and fashion. Warriors have been adjusted from a position of being probably the best overall class to being a fairly average one. Other average classes are respected and popular (like Shaman) but the Warrior class is shunned because it used to be better

So how can we explain this dps adjustment to the Warlock?
1) my theory that they like to get numbers up
2) Warlocks needed some help in pvp (I think we can dismiss this one out of hand)
3) That someone rather clueless was told to "sort warlock pets out" and did this thinking it was what was wanted (unlikely but not impossible in the world of programming)
4) that Warlocks needed a viable alternative solo grinding spec to Affliction. There may be something in this, this is the first post I recall seeing since WoW started where someone states he has a spec that grinds as well as Affliction
5) that Warlocks needed a raid boost. Again this is possible, with guilds downsizing Warlocks are one of the more expendable dpsers especially if not only are you getting rid of 15 people but you're ditching a few extra dpsers to make room for hybrids in dps specs

Now reason 4) doesn't ring true to me since the issue is not that Warlocks can grind poorly compared to the other classes but that they have an imba grinding spec in Affliction that just got buffed through the roof. Giving them another imba grinding spec so they don't have to spec affliction to optimise levelling is hardly a logical fix

Reason 5) doesn't ring particularly true as I expect people will still look for 2 of each in a 25 man raid. Warlocks are decent dps, get buffed sensationally by the raid's shadow priest which is likely to be a level 70 raid given spot, and offer a lot of utility. I think the squeeze on raid dps slots will hit over-populated classes like Rogues more than underpopulated ones like Warlocks

So I'm left scratching my head to see why they would have done this if not for reason 1), that they simply want more people to play them

Quark, can you point me to any examples where a weak and underplayed class received something that is clearly a balance nerf rather than a game mechanic fix which is an incidental nerf?

[Drasca]

I'm not sure which nerf you're referring to.

If you don't know the history of warlock nerfs, you haven't been in the Blizzard Warlock Fora. I could list dozens of historical nerfs. Actually, Warlock nerfs were the ONLY consistent thing in patches for several months. Buff buff buff, nerf. Warlock nerf. See the fora.

Banish / enslave nerfs, pet nerfs, pet control nerfs, talent nerfs (Ruin definitely qualifies).

Ruin: People were scared of warlocks that one shotted enemies 20% of the time, while locks were generally considered a free HK otherwise. This while mages were only able to two-three shot players.

Banish Nerf: Warlocks could no longer keep enslaved monsters (with great effort), and it became harder to enslave mobs.

There's an inumerable # of officially undocumented nerfs, but these few come off the top of my head.

I think it's that the population tends to the classes that are stronger and easier.

Warlock's right about this one, although from a business perspective it might be smarter to affect class population ratios than worry about class balance.

So how can we explain this dps adjustment to the Warlock?

They like to fool around classes with big changes that are nerfed to hell later on. Balance is something they worry about after people have played it to hell.

3. Not clueless. There's been a cry for pet boosts for a long time, as previously pets did NOT scale at all with gear and their relative power diminished as gear increased. Someone finally did it. I remember a time when it was pointless to waste shards on summoning non-imp pets.

[Lissa]

3. Not clueless. There's been a cry for pet boosts for a long time, as previously pets did NOT scale at all with gear and their relative power diminished as gear increased. Someone finally did it. I remember a time when it was pointless to waste shards on summoning non-imp pets.

Except if you were using DS, but that was after 1.6 when it got added.

[Lissa]

They were also the only viable raid tank.

Wrong. There were only three bosses prior to Naxx a Druid couldn't tank (two of them being more of a Horde side issue, fine Alliance side). A Druid could not tank Veknilash due to his Unbalancing Strike and a Horde Druid could not tank Nefarian and Onyxia due to the fears (you'd have to use an off tank during the fears and when the Druid call occured on Nefarian which would affect Alliance side as well). Avarice had a Druid tank all other bosses at one time or another.

[Lissa]

Also the only raid viable hybrid.

Again wrong. Druids set up with feral talents can easily shift between tanking (Bear) and DPSing (cat) along with possibly healing when the need arises.

[Delc]

Wrong. There were only three bosses prior to Naxx a Druid couldn't tank (two of them being more of a Horde side issue, fine Alliance side). A Druid could not tank Veknilash due to his Unbalancing Strike and a Horde Druid could not tank Nefarian and Onyxia due to the fears (you'd have to use an off tank during the fears and when the Druid call occured on Nefarian which would affect Alliance side as well). Avarice had a Druid tank all other bosses at one time or another.

I don't see why a druid couldn't tank any of those. The fear on Ony isn't too bad with 3 tremor totems, and Nef would just require 2 offtanks instead of 1. The fear can happen more than every 30 seconds so you already have to have an offtank to pick up the extra ones. Of course the druid class call would be a bit interesting... Also unbalancing strike just lowers defense doesn't it? Druids don't usually stack that much +def anyway.

[Artega]

Wrong. There were only three bosses prior to Naxx a Druid couldn't tank (two of them being more of a Horde side issue, fine Alliance side). A Druid could not tank Veknilash due to his Unbalancing Strike and a Horde Druid could not tank Nefarian and Onyxia due to the fears (you'd have to use an off tank during the fears and when the Druid call occured on Nefarian which would affect Alliance side as well). Avarice had a Druid tank all other bosses at one time or another.

And due to itemization and lack of avoidance (no Shield Block and no Parry), they were generally inferior to Warriors, correct?

[Warlock]

And due to itemization and lack of avoidance (no Shield Block and no Parry), they were generally inferior to Warriors, correct?

Itemisation more so than the latter. Raw armour and HP counts for a lot - a 60 druid tank in appropriate blues compares pretty well to an equivalent warrior.

Yes, Druids can and have tanked most bosses. Some have even been their guild's main tank as the guild learns each new encounter. I'm pretty sure a lower percentage of tank-specialist druids had that role than DPS warrior builds since a lot of people thought of using a Druid tank as a stunt just a couple of steps up from having a voidwalker do it. Player perceptions can take a long time to change; the fight where I held my target against raid DPS, the warrior lost his against healing and I got blamed because of "all the extra healing aggro of a druid tank" comes to mind. I'm getting plenty of tank invites in BC, though - hopefully it will diminish rather than completely die as capped warriors spec back to protection. WTB Tier gear with tanking stats. Or at least general Feral. Int, Spi and +heal aren't much help if switching out will get you one-shot.

[Drasca]

having a voidwalker do it.

What's wrong with Pets tanking baby raid dungeons? =D

[Lissa]

I don't see why a druid couldn't tank any of those. The fear on Ony isn't too bad with 3 tremor totems, and Nef would just require 2 offtanks instead of 1. The fear can happen more than every 30 seconds so you already have to have an offtank to pick up the extra ones. Of course the druid class call would be a bit interesting... Also unbalancing strike just lowers defense doesn't it? Druids don't usually stack that much +def anyway.

The problem with Unbalancing Strike is that when under the affect the Druid is very likely to get hit with a number of crushing blows. A Warrior with improved Shield block can use shield block right after an UB and make it impossible to get the crushing blows even with around 300 affective defense (Druids were looking at best around 250 after an Unbalancing).

[Artega]

What's wrong with Pets tanking baby raid dungeons? =D

Pets of the appropriate level should not be able to hold aggro against an entire raid.

[Urza-DSF]

Pets of the appropriate level should not be able to hold aggro against an entire raid.

Feh, well then explain how we had GGs pet tank Hakkar on our first ZG one-shot pre BC?

[lfd]

Feh, well then explain how we had GGs pet tank Hakkar on our first ZG one-shot pre BC?

I think the point was exactly that - that it was possible, when it damned well shouldn't be. Pet aggro is horribly broken, in the opposite direction to the way warrior aggro is also broken.

[Kevin]

I think the point was exactly that - that it was possible, when it damned well shouldn't be. Pet aggro is horribly broken, in the opposite direction to the way warrior aggro is also broken.

Well pets are designed (especially if you are beast spec) to make sure they hold aggro on the hunter. The hunter, if they don't use FD, is one of the highest aggro classes in the game since they don't mitigate it at all really, they just have 130% cap from being at range. So if the pet can hold vs a really high aggro hunter it can hold vs just about anything. Especially all these classes with talents that reduce threat.

I think the real issue is that the pet can do this while the hunter still puts out nearly as much damage (or more damage) than another spec of hunter, I assume that raid tank pets are from beast hunters.

[Artega]

Well pets are designed (especially if you are beast spec) to make sure they hold aggro on the hunter. The hunter, if they don't use FD, is one of the highest aggro classes in the game since they don't mitigate it at all really, they just have 130% cap from being at range. So if the pet can hold vs a really high aggro hunter it can hold vs just about anything. Especially all these classes with talents that reduce threat.

I think the real issue is that the pet can do this while the hunter still puts out nearly as much damage (or more damage) than another spec of hunter, I assume that raid tank pets are from beast hunters.

Even with that in mind, it's ludicrous that a semi-controlled pet can tank as effectively (though maybe not as efficiently) as a player character.

If it means that Beast Mastery Hunters will have to learn to limit their aggro production in solo content, so be it.

[Kevin]

Even with that in mind, it's ludicrous that a semi-controlled pet can tank as effectively (though maybe not as efficiently) as a player character.

If it means that Beast Mastery Hunters will have to learn to limit their aggro production in solo content, so be it.

Personally I think a beastmaster hunter pet should be able to tank but that the hunter doesn't do as much damage as they do. Take some of the hunters power and transfer it to the pet essentially so that Pet + Hunter is pretty much equal to pet + hunter for other specs. Give beast hunters heavier pet scaling than they do now, but cut back the scaling for the other specs. I would rather enjoy that.