More on Warlocks in the Expansion

[MongoJerry]

This was posted on our guild forums by a warlock named Rogerklutz:


They recently made warlock pets gain about 30% of the warlock's shadow damage in spell damage (This was in a while ago, then it got pulled out, now its back in). Here are the results:

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4448894

The cast time on firebolt is 1 sec, so in this pic my pet is doing over 1k dps. This is with black book (about +110 dmg on firebolt), curse of elements, imp scorch, and pretty much every consumable, but even without all this my pet still does about 600 dps.

[Mirajj]

Yay! 'Cause warlocks needed so badly have their damage buffed!;)

[Artega]

This was posted on our guild forums by a warlock named Rogerklutz:
They recently made warlock pets gain about 30% of the warlock's shadow damage in spell damage (This was in a while ago, then it got pulled out, now its back in). Here are the results:

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4448894

The cast time on firebolt is 1 sec, so in this pic my pet is doing over 1k dps. This is with black book (about +110 dmg on firebolt), curse of elements, imp scorch, and pretty much every consumable, but even without all this my pet still does about 600 dps.

I'm sorry, but that's beyond obscene. Warlocks and Hunters both need to be nerfed incredibly hard to bring them in line with the rest of the classes. I find it hard to describe either class without extensive use of expletives these days.

[Mirajj]

I'm sorry, but that's beyond obscene. Warlocks and Hunters both need to be nerfed incredibly hard to bring them in line with the rest of the classes. I find it hard to describe either class without extensive use of expletives these days.

I'll quietly disagree with this, as +stam stuff starts to come hard and fast in TBC, which then levels things out some.

And one shot at one of my more favored axes to grind...you are playing a PvE game with a pisspoor pvp component slapdashedly added on. PvE requires that kind of damage. PvP doesn't. PvE play has seen enough nerfs due to PvP whining already, thanks.:)

[Kevin]

I'm sorry, but that's beyond obscene. Warlocks and Hunters both need to be nerfed incredibly hard to bring them in line with the rest of the classes. I find it hard to describe either class without extensive use of expletives these days.

I have to agree. Two of my 60's are a Tauren Hunter and an Undead Warlock. The hunter has 7/8 T1, 2/8 T2, Rhok, was exalted with AV before the patch. Decent gear but not uber. The lock has 4/6 of the blue PvP set (was rank 9 before the patch), 1/6 of the purple PvP (the shoulder) and a spellblade she was exalted with AV and honored or revered with WSG or AB. She has no raid gear.

Rogues that are really good at stun locks can sometimes kill one of them. The only other things that can hope to kill me are locks or other hunters. I've PvP'd as all 3 specs with the hunter, all 3 pwn people. I've PvP'd under all 3 trees as the lock. I pwn'd with all of them. I'm most comfortable as affliction though.

Marks hunters, now that I'm full affliction with an instant fear + death coil, are about the only think I worry about on my lock. I don't even worry about other locks with her unless they really outgear me. I will see 2 opponents, don't care what class and I will assume that I will kill both of them. Most of the time I'm right. It often takes at least 3 people to beat me in the open field and even after I die, I'll usually kill 1 or 2 of them on the lock.

PvE, even with "lesser" gear I've gone into MC and kept up with all other classes but the mages and these are people in gear like my hunter, full T1 + 2-6 pcs of T2 and some PvP gear.

Warlocks are way way overpowered.

My hunter in PvE destroys people on damage, I get beat by ice mages with elementals, that's it. I did it as Marks, as survival, and now I'm beast and still do it (even when I can't use the pet though my 18 slot quiver starts to feel a little small at the stupid attack rates I have, I'm firing Rhok at a sub 2.0 speed about 80% of the time... and it's 2.1 speed the rest of the time).

And when it comes to soloing in the world, the hunter is just retardly powerful. Nothing has a chance. If the 5K life, 8K armor unbuffed pet can't tank it I can kite it.

I've got an L60 warrior, druid, paladin (and my shaman is nearly there as well). The hunter and lock both have more survivability than even the paladin in solo PvE and kill a heck of a lot faster. You combine in the pet and 300 DPS is easy to sustain for both the lock and the hunter and they can both never be touched if I don't want to be.

So yeah, I'm fully aware that I spend a lot of time on two classes that are just stupidly overpowered in PvP and PvE in my opinion and buffing locks even more just seem silly to me.

[Lissa]

This was posted on our guild forums by a warlock named Rogerklutz:
They recently made warlock pets gain about 30% of the warlock's shadow damage in spell damage (This was in a while ago, then it got pulled out, now its back in). Here are the results:

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4448894

The cast time on firebolt is 1 sec, so in this pic my pet is doing over 1k dps. This is with black book (about +110 dmg on firebolt), curse of elements, imp scorch, and pretty much every consumable, but even without all this my pet still does about 600 dps.

Just an FYI, you can't get below 1.5 second cast on the firebolt no matter if you put two points into the talent or not. It's still limited by the global cooldown of 1.5 seconds.

[TheDragoon]

Just an FYI, you can't get below 1.5 second cast on the firebolt no matter if you put two points into the talent or not. It's still limited by the global cooldown of 1.5 seconds.

Have you seen any definitive study or post about this? I've seen lots of people claim that it is not affected by the global cooldown and lots of others say that it is affected by the 1.5s cooldown. I guess I should really just try it out, but I keep forgetting to try it, at some point. :)

[Drasca]

Have you seen any definitive study or post about this?

I've done tests myself. You don't gain the 2nd point of imp. cast time. It is definitively 1.5s.

I will see 2 opponents, don't care what class and I will assume that I will kill both of them

Pfft. I used to do that before all the cool buffs. Its called being on the attack.

you are playing a PvE game with a pisspoor pvp component slapdashedly added on. PvE requires that kind of damage. PvP doesn't

So true, and all the whineage shift focus once TBC loot comes about.

[Kevin]

Pfft. I used to do that before all the cool buffs. Its called being on the attack.

No, I'll get jumped by a rogue and someone else and I'll still feel that I'll kill both of them. If I get jumped on my warrior or paladin or druid I don't figure that I'll kill them both, on my hunter it depends on who jumps me. On my paladin I figure that I'll live long enough for others to come help, but on the lock I'm still confident that I can solo defend a point against up to 3 attackers, even if they get the jump on me. I can be semi-AFK with my lock come back half dead and still feel that I will kill any two opponents.

Locks are overpowered. Of course I've said this for a long long time.

[Zarathustra]

Even in PvE, that's a TON of damage for a pet. Warlocks were very powerful before this buff. Now it's just sick.

[Drasca]

No, I'll get jumped by a rogue and someone else and I'll still feel that I'll kill both of them.

Eh. Rogues --> just insta-nuke away, even pre death coil fear & 2 min timer and all that jazz. A decent warlock was a miniature army. Of course they've got extra relative power now, due to pre-bc talent changes.

What you REALLY don't realize is that the relative dps disparity extremely temporary, as this is pre-BC where spellcasters benefit far more from talent changes than weapon dependent classes.

Its like fighting against level 60 spells when everyone's equipped in level 50 gear. The advantage is now, but won't necessarily last. The balance of power will shift as new equipment rolls in, and soon there'll be new things to whinge on about.

[Kevin]

Eh. Rogues --> just insta-nuke away, even pre death coil fear & 2 min timer and all that jazz. A decent warlock was a miniature army. Of course they've got extra relative power now, due to pre-bc talent changes.

What you REALLY don't realize is that the relative dps disparity extremely temporary, as this is pre-BC where spellcasters benefit far more from talent changes than weapon dependent classes.

Its like fighting against level 60 spells when everyone's equipped in level 50 gear. The advantage is now, but won't necessarily last. The balance of power will shift as new equipment rolls in, and soon there'll be new things to whinge on about.

I was completely overpowered on the lock before 2.0. If the opponent wasn't in Naxx gear my blue PvP gear made me more poweful than them. Several people don't want to believe locks are overpowered but they are.

It's the only class that can self heal, AoE, DoT, have a pet, and do massive single target damage, and CC. No other class has the toolkit of a warlock. So you put one in the hands of someone who understands game mechanics and the fact that the class has more tools available than any other class, by far, means they are just overpowered.

[Mirajj]

PvE, even with "lesser" gear I've gone into MC and kept up with all other classes but the mages and these are people in gear like my hunter, full T1 + 2-6 pcs of T2 and some PvP gear.

That's the thing though, GG. You are just at the cusp of where the other classes start to catch the hunter (and they'll quickly surpass you) in my experience. I outdamaged folks pre-MC/ZG and was very good competition in MC. As our raiders started to get mostly BWL gear and beyond, I found that I'd topped out of my damage (No new gear) while they were just hitting their stride. You are just at the cusp. If TBC wasn't around the corner, I'd ask you to come back when you have about 1/2 of AQ reliably on farm, and compare damage amonst the classes.

As it stands right now, unless I'm doing something involving (RL'ing, pulling, etc) then I'll usually end up in the 5-10 bracket. If I am 'busy' in a raid that drops me down the charts, of course. But, if after BWL you are beating any rogue, most mages, and a couple of warlocks...those players aren't stepping up (Though they may have had crappy drop luck, I do recognize). Where a hunter should be (Raiding AQ40/Naxx) is way under the rogues, under some mages, and mixed in with the warlocks for damage. If that's not the case, given equal gearing, then your CL's need to have a chat with your rogues/mages, and find out why they are slacking.

And when it comes to soloing in the world, the hunter is just retardly powerful. Nothing has a chance. If the 5K life, 8K armor unbuffed pet can't tank it I can kite it.

Something I've long wondered about is why what any class can do solo, by themselves, out and about in the world has anything to do with the price of tea in china. Who really cares? Out there, it's just you vs the mob you have chosen to pick on. Some do it faster, some do it with less downtime, some are just more fun, even if they aren't "the best".

[Artega]

I'll quietly disagree with this, as +stam stuff starts to come hard and fast in TBC, which then levels things out some.

And one shot at one of my more favored axes to grind...you are playing a PvE game with a pisspoor pvp component slapdashedly added on. PvE requires that kind of damage. PvP doesn't. PvE play has seen enough nerfs due to PvP whining already, thanks.:)

Stop ruining my PvP with your pointless PvE, thanks:)

[Artega]

Something I've long wondered about is why what any class can do solo, by themselves, out and about in the world has anything to do with the price of tea in china. Who really cares? Out there, it's just you vs the mob you have chosen to pick on. Some do it faster, some do it with less downtime, some are just more fun, even if they aren't "the best".

The problem with this ties into the game economy, among other things.

Warlocks and Hunters can handle elites pretty easily, as far as outdoor elites go. I've watched my friends grind elite giants in Winterspring, elite dragonkin in Winterspring, and do all kinds of things most other classes simply can't do efficiently, if at all.

My Warrior can handle yellow elites only by blowing every cooldown he has, using bandages, potions, and buff consumables, and sometimes explosives and other engineering tricks. This is fine, since it lets me solo an elite quest every now and then (assuming it's a kill quest or a loot quest and not a numbers quest; Gammerita, mon! is a good example), but I think it's ludicrous that any class should be able to go through elite mobs of the same or similar level like a scythe.

EDIT: We'll just convienently ignore the other problems, like the leveling process:)

[Kevin]

That's the thing though, GG. You are just at the cusp of where the other classes start to catch the hunter (and they'll quickly surpass you) in my experience. I outdamaged folks pre-MC/ZG and was very good competition in MC. As our raiders started to get mostly BWL gear and beyond, I found that I'd topped out of my damage (No new gear) while they were just hitting their stride. You are just at the cusp. If TBC wasn't around the corner, I'd ask you to come back when you have about 1/2 of AQ reliably on farm, and compare damage amonst the classes.

OK when I say kept up, I mean top the damage charts. And it's not that the other classes aren't pulling their weight. It's me being essentially perfect on my shot cycles and aggro control (allowing me to be in combat essentially immediately and not worry about getting aggro). I beat out other better geared hunters at times too so I know that some of it is skill with the class. It's paying attention to the pet (I did 1.1 million damage on our last MC, my pet did 450K you combine that and the only thing that had a chance was the mages with the water elements added in). Last BWL (through Chrommie) when you combined pets, it was the same thing, I was behind only the top two geared mages (without my pet I was only 6th but well 200K damage from a pet shouldn't be ignored). And the hunters are behind in gear, as T2 gear simply has not been dropping for the hunters, so we have rogues, mages, and locks in 5 or 6 pc T2, and I've finally gotten my 2nd pc of T2 (belt and gloves and I don't wear the gloves a lot because of the value of +hit on GS). And again I look at what rogues and mages and locks did on SR for damage and the locks and mages and rogues on Terenas are doing the same type of numbers.

I also respectfully disagree that there aren't upgrades for the hunters out there after BWL either. There are several ranged weapons that would provide me a significant upgrade, there are several armor pieces and trinkets that are better than what I'm using. There are certainly weapons that would give me more damage than my Zulian Stone Axe even when you factor in what that extra int does for me. There are definately rings and ammies that beat what I've go. Sure they may not be as big of an upgrade as what other classes may get but I don't expect to be pushed out of the top 5 in equal gearing.

And from the browsing I do on the EJ forums hunters in the top 5 in AQ40 and Naxx is not unusual at all.

Something I've long wondered about is why what any class can do solo, by themselves, out and about in the world has anything to do with the price of tea in china. Who really cares? Out there, it's just you vs the mob you have chosen to pick on. Some do it faster, some do it with less downtime, some are just more fun, even if they aren't "the best".

So me being able to spend 1/3 the time farming to get what I need for raid readiness has no bearing on anything? Me being able to solo quests that others need to group for means nothing? No, it has bearing, the game is easier for the hunter. Being able to farm with the toon I raid with makes me that much more aware of the toon too. I can't farm with my paladin so that means I'm farming with someone else and that means I'm less "in tune" with that character in raids and such. It means I may not be as happy playing that toon at all because I know that I can't do everything with it the game offers. It matters.

[Mavfin]

Something I've long wondered about is why what any class can do solo, by themselves, out and about in the world has anything to do with the price of tea in china. Who really cares? Out there, it's just you vs the mob you have chosen to pick on. Some do it faster, some do it with less downtime, some are just more fun, even if they aren't "the best".

It matters, Mir. While you're out farming the best elites for drops and cash to get your epic mount, the best I can solo on my T2-geared warrior is crap compared to what you can do. I have to farm a lot longer for the same rewards, mainly because solo-power, your class is broken. I don't see you farming on your priest. Wonder why? People who pick X class for raid reason can get resentful of the hunters who say 'oh, I only had to farm <a third the time you did>, since I could kill <x mob that I can't touch> <three times as fast as I can kill a lesser one> <with very little downtime>.

So, yeah, it does matter. There shouldn't be that huge a disparity between what classes can do solo.

[Zarathustra]

So, yeah, it does matter. There shouldn't be that huge a disparity between what classes can do solo.

Are you saying healing classes should kill as quickly as dps classes?

[Drasca]

So, yeah, it does matter. There shouldn't be that huge a disparity between what classes can do solo.

Ha. Not according how those classes are advertised. I personally believe there should be some diversity and 'unique'ness to every class.. and honestly you'll never have the same experience (good thing) or exact same rate. However you're missing the bigger picture.

Mir. While you're out farming the best elites for drops and cash to get your epic mount, the best I can solo on my T2-geared warrior is crap compared to what you can do. I have to farm a lot longer for the same reward

Still, what you're missing is that the gold grind is supposedly much easier in BC. As for actual loot drops, the grass is always greener, and I won't really argue about ability to gain gold. The summonable warlock epic mount is a bit of warlock class specific perk anyhow. Fun quest line.

Warlocks and Hunters can handle elites pretty easily, as far as outdoor elites go. I've watched my friends grind elite giants in Winterspring, elite dragonkin in Winterspring, and do all kinds of things most other classes simply can't do efficiently, if at all.

So? Tea in China. WoW is not a solo game. Ability to solo various mobs is in PvE is a perk... but then again

Stop ruining my PvP with your pointless PvE, thanks

Some people don't care about PvE.

Funny Artega picks a PvE game to PvP in... :whistling:

was completely overpowered on the lock before 2.0

Personally, I was referring to my experiences pre-death coil fear in patch... I was 'overpowered' with some loot, and underpowered against higher loot.

Still, what Mirajj's stating is completely correct: You haven't seen the equipment roll in yet.

[lfd]

Are you saying healing classes should kill as quickly as dps classes?

Not this stupid argument again. Please, not again.