Imp. Fireball and Imp. Frostbolt damage coefficient changes

[Artega]

What else do Mages do in PvE? They decurse, they make water, and they stand there and cast their favorite nuke until the mob dies:)

I wouldn't notice or care if Improved Intercept affected Intercept; I'm Protection and thus do not have access to the talent.

[Quark]

Attacking this from a different approach. Take a BWL geared Mage (easy example to make up, one notable piece outside of straight stats is Touch of Chaos), and do as much damage as possible in 5 minutes. To skew it in the favor of the mage without the talent, grab Arcane Meditation instead of some +dmg talents. Ignored all crits and +dmg from talents, miss/partial resists as simplifications (they should favor both equally). Grabbed the mana cost reducing talents and factored them in. Ignored Clearcasting, Evocation, Gems, and Pots, and Buffs. Wand damage that both had not added into totals.

End results: With the talent, a mage can get 46095 damage in 295 seconds (35 casts), with an extra 15 seconds spent wanding (waiting for mana regen) for a total of 47325. Without the talent, a mage can get 49428 damage in 294 seconds (36 casts).

Thus, in the example that I can think of that best favors not having the talent, you lose 2103 damage over 5 minutes (7 DPS). Add in stuff to extend the life of the mana pool, like Seal of Wisdom (get more mana back while wanding), that'll be cut even further down if not completely nullified. The DPM part of the nerf is unimportant, the DPS part is important.

Chicken scratch follows, as I didn't feel like spending time organizing my notes:

Goal: Max damage in 5 minutes

Fireball (Rank 14)
465 Mana 35 yd range
3.5 sec cast
Hurls a fiery ball that causes 717 to 913 Fire damage and an additional 84 Fire damage over 8 sec.

Spirit Regen:

(13 + S/4) / 2

During combat - 30% regen (if you give up some damage to get Arcane Meditation)

6% less mana per cast
Crit gives 30% mana back

437 mana per cast.

6978 (+37 / 5 sec.)
Spell Crit.: 11.67%
Spell Hit: +5%
Healing Spells: +538
Spell Damage: +558

815 avg damage
+558
---
1373 avg (no talent)

1317 avg (talent)

218 Spirit
7000 mana

Regen outside 5 second rule: 33.75 + 7.4 = 41.15
Regen outside 5 second rule: 10.125 + 7.4 = 17.525

16 casts until out. In 16 casts, 48 seconds or 56 seconds
48 * 17.525 = 841.2
56 * 17.525 = 981.4

With talent:
Out of mana after 17 casts, or 51 seconds, or 22389 damage
Regen to full mana: 175 seconds, back to full at 226 seconds
17 casts, 277 seconds, 44778 damage
Regen to 1 cast: 292 seconds, 46095 damage
Extra wand damage (15 seconds more out of 5 second rule): 1230
47325

Without talent:
out of mana after 18 casts, or 59.5 seconds, or 24714 damage
Regen to full mana: 175 seconds, back to full at 234.5 seconds
18 casts, 294 seconds, 49428 damage

[oldmandennis]

So by your own math, it's a 4% decrease to total damage done. You know who hates it when their talents do that to them? Everybody.

[TheDragoon]

So by your own math, it's a 4% decrease to total damage done. You know who hates it when their talents do that to them? Everybody.

For that set of circumstances. But note where he says that other sources of mana regeneration would likely completely remove the difference, leaving the talent with its full DPS increase via casting speed change.

[Pantalaimon]

For that set of circumstances. But note where he says that other sources of mana regeneration would likely completely remove the difference, leaving the talent with its full DPS increase via casting speed change.

The problem I have here is that the argument is about the talent decreasing their DPM. As I see it, that means a mage that doesn't take the talent will receive more benefit out of things such as evocation, BoW, mana stream, mana gems and mana potions - since their spells are more efficient, the damage equivalent (how much pain they can deal with the mana restored) of, say, a major mana potion is larger. Even mana/5 will benefit a nontalented mage more. Slight, yes, but given the direction that blizzard seems to be taking the mage itemization (more regen, less bam) it's a valid point.

The math that was run ignored all that - indeed, even assuming it would work towards the talented mage's advantage.

But if running out of mana is at all a concern, I think the difference will actually increase. The only time the whole "DPS trumps all" argument holds weight is when both hypothetical mages can spend the exact same amount of time casting, and neither will run out of mana. For example your basic cast - evo - cast fight. If the fight ends before the less efficient mage runs oom, then he came out ahead. But if you did math for the situation quark posed using evocation, gems, etc. and they were still running oom towards the end then I'm pretty sure the nontalented mage will come out even more ahead.

Edit: I haven't done math, but the way they implemented this talent implies to me that there's some sort of +damage break-even point where the talent becomes absolutely useless. Has anyone done any back of the envelope math to see if that point is attainable given itemization in the near future?

[Quark]

The problem I have here is that the argument is about the talent decreasing their DPM. As I see it, that means a mage that doesn't take the talent will receive more benefit out of things such as evocation, BoW, mana stream, mana gems and mana potions - since their spells are more efficient, the damage equivalent (how much pain they can deal with the mana restored) of, say, a major mana potion is larger. Even mana/5 will benefit a nontalented mage more. Slight, yes, but given the direction that blizzard seems to be taking the mage itemization (more regen, less bam) it's a valid point.

The math that was run ignored all that - indeed, even assuming it would work towards the talented mage's advantage.

If you're limited by one resource (in this case, mana), the less of a percentage you are limited by it, the less of a factor it becomes.

I ran it again with just mage mana returns (Evocation + 3 gems during a 5 minute fight)

Total with talent: 298 seconds, 63216 damage, 49 casts
+ wand difference (15 seconds): +1230 = 64446 damage
Total without: 299 seconds, 64531 damage, 47 casts

% difference = 0.13%

And, again, add just Seal of Wisdom, and it should put the favor completely in the hands of the talented mage because he can wand back for more effective mana more often.

Edit: I haven't done math, but the way they implemented this talent implies to me that there's some sort of +damage break-even point where the talent becomes absolutely useless. Has anyone done any back of the envelope math to see if that point is attainable given itemization in the near future?

3.5 seconds @ 100% gains .286 DPS per +damage point (x/3.5)
3.0 seconds @ 90% gains .3 DPS per +damage point (.9*x/3)
3.0 seconds @ 100% (pre-nerf) gains .333 DPS per +damage point (x/3)
So talented now scales 4.9% better instead of 16.4% better. Wow, I never looked at it that way before. Pre-nerf, Improved Fireball was a >3% talent.

Chicken scratch take 2:

Evocation: 1500% regen for 8 seconds, 8 minute cooldown
506.25 + 7.4 = 513.65, * 8 = 4109.2 mana in 8 seconds
Mana Emerald - 1136 mana - 2min cooldown
Mana Ruby - 1000 mana
Mana Citrine - 775 mana

2911 mana from gems

Use Mana Emerald after 4 casts (12 seconds in talented, 14 seconds in untalented)
1.5 second delay, 1136 mana
8136 effective mana, 18 casts until out. In 18 casts, 55.5 seconds or 64.5 seconds
55.5 * 17.525 = 972.6375 (2 bonus)
64.5 * 17.525 = 1130.3625 (2 bonus)

With talent:
Out of mana after 20 casts, 61.5 seconds, 26340 damage
Evocation, 8 seconds (69.5), 4109 mana
9 more casts, 27 seconds (96.5), 11853 damage (38193)
1 bonus cast, 3 seconds (99.5), 1317 damage (39510)
Regen 140 seconds (239.5) - 5761 + gem (1000) + gem (775) = 7536 effective mana, 1.5 second delay (1 gem during casting)
17 casts, 51 seconds (292), 22389 damage (60582)
2 bonus casts, 6 seconds (298), 2634 damage (63216)

With talent:
Out of mana after 20 casts, 71.5 seconds, 27460 damage
Evocation, 8 seconds (79.5), 4109 mana
9 more casts, 31.5 (111), 12357 damage (39817)
1 bonus casts, 3.5 (114.5), 1373 damage (41190)
Regen 125 seconds (239.5) - 5144 + gem (1000) + gem (775) = 6919 effective mana, 1.5 second delay (1 gem during casting)
15 casts, 52.5 seconds (292), 20595 damage (61785)
2 bonus casts, 7 seconds (299), 2746 damage (64531)

[oldmandennis]

I'm not in a mathy mood. I'm fairly over this. As I go, I'll leave you a couple of tweaks to think about.

Arbitrarily cutting it off at 5 minutes is not the way to go. To figure out the cycles best, do DPS for one whole cycle (full mana -> full mana). From what I can tell of your chicken scratch, it looks like your mages start at full, cast to empty, fill up, then start casting again when the mob dies. However your talented mage gets off two extra fireballs during the second casting phase. This means he ends the fight with significantly less mana then the untalented mage. At some point around 6min, he is going to run out of mana, while the untalented mage gets off two more casts. If the mob dies during that time, the untalented mage will have roughly triple the gap in damage you are giving him credit for. Of course thats a big if... so DPS over a full cycle is the only fair way to calculate it.

And this also assumes that 5 min is a "long" fight. I'd call it average. KT, Saph, 4H, C'thun, Twin Emps, Nef, and Ony are all way longer then that (at least the first time you kill them).

[Mavfin]

I'm not in a mathy mood. I'm fairly over this. As I go, I'll leave you a couple of tweaks to think about.

Arbitrarily cutting it off at 5 minutes is not the way to go. To figure out the cycles best, do DPS for one whole cycle (full mana -> full mana). From what I can tell of your chicken scratch, it looks like your mages start at full, cast to empty, fill up, then start casting again when the mob dies. However your talented mage gets off two extra fireballs during the second casting phase. This means he ends the fight with significantly less mana then the untalented mage. At some point around 6min, he is going to run out of mana, while the untalented mage gets off two more casts. If the mob dies during that time, the untalented mage will have roughly triple the gap in damage you are giving him credit for. Of course thats a big if... so DPS over a full cycle is the only fair way to calculate it.

And this also assumes that 5 min is a "long" fight. I'd call it average. KT, Saph, 4H, C'thun, Twin Emps, Nef, and Ony are all way longer then that (at least the first time you kill them).

There's also this: I've got a fire mage, and I'm going to take the shorter casting talent for soloing/grinding/5-manning, just *for* the shorter cast time. Now, if you're *strictly* raid-focused and *nothing else*, you might want to do all the math above.

[Skandranon]

Leaving aside the discussion on how much of a nerf this is, I'd just like to weigh in on the necessity of the nerf itself, which I don't really understand that much. Pre-nerf, mages were already behind warlocks in terms of damage (and given warlocks' substantially greater utility, and potential damage increase through multidotting - which blows area-effect ANYTHING out of the water - I don't know that even THAT was a good idea). Now we're behind shadow priests, too. Where all classes are concerned, we're behind locks, shadow priests, rogues, enhancement shaman and well geared feral druids. Surely Polymorph is not so good that we have to be so bad at DPS?

The really incomprehensible part is the nerf to Frost. Fire is the real damage-dealing spec, and though it's behind many other classes, it's not behind by a massive margin (even though it shouldn't be behind). Frost was already down there with smiteapriests and behind moonkin; now it's the lowest DPS spec of any class, period. It's basically a useless toy spec now, and I don't think they really wanted to do that.

As for fire, I suspect a lot of their "too much damage" concerns are because they are testing with fireball rank 14, which they left off the trainers on Live. It's clear that they didn't intend to remove it, because the level 70 Pyroblast is still there; the level 70 Fireball just isn't. Having that would make life a little better.

[lfd]

Pre-nerf, mages were already behind warlocks in terms of damage. Now we're behind shadow priests, too.

Utter rubbish. Shadow priests scale THE WORST out of all caster classes. I'm not going to be doing 3k mind blast crits any time soon due to its short casting time, yet I regularly see frostbolt crits higher than that from our level 70 mages in 5-mans, without warlock assistance, wearing early naxx and BC levelling gear.

Frost was already down there with smiteapriests and behind moonkin; now it's the lowest DPS spec of any class, period. It's basically a useless toy spec now, and I don't think they really wanted to do that.

Again, I can't really think of anything to say to this except "boggle". It's completely contradictory to my experience of mages and that of the mages in my guild, who are saying frost/arcane or arcane/frost is incredibly strong. It's like you're playing a different game.

[Lissa]

Utter rubbish. Shadow priests scale THE WORST out of all caster classes. I'm not going to be doing 3k mind blast crits any time soon due to its short casting time, yet I regularly see frostbolt crits higher than that from our level 70 mages in 5-mans, without warlock assistance, wearing early naxx and BC levelling gear.
Again, I can't really think of anything to say to this except "boggle". It's completely contradictory to my experience of mages and that of the mages in my guild, who are saying frost/arcane or arcane/frost is incredibly strong. It's like you're playing a different game.

I have to agree, I'm seeing similar things from Mages as well. Right now, Mages are doing very well, case in point last night on a Mana Tombs run Midori out damaged Quark by the time it was over and Quark has 2 levels on Midori. I continue to see Mages do very well on damage output.

[Skandranon]

Utter rubbish. Shadow priests scale THE WORST out of all caster classes. I'm not going to be doing 3k mind blast crits any time soon due to its short casting time, yet I regularly see frostbolt crits higher than that from our level 70 mages in 5-mans, without warlock assistance, wearing early naxx and BC levelling gear.

Firstly: http://wiki.shadowpriest.com/index.php?tit..._DPS_Comparison . Scroll down to the 2.0.6 part.

Secondly: A well geared shadow priest cycling SW:D beats me out on a single target, and I have +815 fire spell damage and a 10/48/3 pure raid fire build. I suspect your experience comes from not cycling SW:D or you're not geared as well as your mages. (Myself and the priest in question are effectively equally geared.)

Again, I can't really think of anything to say to this except "boggle". It's completely contradictory to my experience of mages and that of the mages in my guild, who are saying frost/arcane or arcane/frost is incredibly strong. It's like you're playing a different game.

What can I say? Our experiences seem completely at odds. I don't know where else we can really go with this.

[Skandranon]

I have to agree, I'm seeing similar things from Mages as well. Right now, Mages are doing very well, case in point last night on a Mana Tombs run Midori out damaged Quark by the time it was over and Quark has 2 levels on Midori. I continue to see Mages do very well on damage output.

From my experiences clearing through every 5-man, I'm usually about 5-8% behind a warlock and fighting to keep up to around 3% behind the shadow priest if the priest doesn't have to break shadowform and heal. On the runs where I have Salv, this is flat-out fireball spam, too.

[lfd]

Firstly: http://wiki.shadowpriest.com/index.php?tit..._DPS_Comparison . Scroll down to the 2.0.6 part.

How does that table prove your point? I see classes above the shadowpriest in that table, and they all have less +dmg than the 'top' shadowpriest.

Secondly: A well geared shadow priest cycling SW:D beats me out on a single target

Surely a shadowpriest wearing -the best items- (and to get near 815 +dmg he must be pretty close to that, without consumables, unless he's wearing a lot of statless greens) SHOULD come close to your dps, unless I missed the memo that said mages must be the highest single-target and multiple-target dps dealers full stop;)

What can I say? Our experiences seem completely at odds. I don't know where else we can really go with this.

The fact that our experiences are completely at odds intrigues me. Theorycrafting, however, has never really appealed to me, so it'll have to wait until I've levelled my mage to 70, and then I'll take both him and my priest out with identical +dmg on and have a play.

[Skandranon]

How does that table prove your point? I see classes above the shadowpriest in that table, and they all have less +dmg than the 'top' shadowpriest.

The results are adjusted for gear maximization. The article explains this: the numbers are shifted to account for itemization choices. The idea is that giving each comparison the same +damage, +hit and +crit numbers doesn't properly model how shadow priests and affliction locks will favour pure +damage items over +crit items (since both classes are DoT-heavy and therefore cast a lot of spells that cannot crit). The way the numbers are set up, the mages are actually favoured in the analysis since they get to split their attack stats in different ways (which gets them "more" overall the way the item formula works) whereas shadow priests and affliction locks get a bit of hit and straight +damage otherwise.

Surely a shadowpriest wearing -the best items- (and to get near 815 +dmg he must be pretty close to that, without consumables, unless he's wearing a lot of statless greens) SHOULD come close to your dps, unless I missed the memo that said mages must be the highest single-target and multiple-target dps dealers full stop;)

Close I have no problem with. Beating me, that I do have a problem with, because I can't shift out of nuke form to heal (this is the same, and I feel, equally convincing argument, that rogues use to argue that feral druids should not outdamage them). And given the way mages are set up, we should be slightly behind rogues and slightly ahead of everyone else, in most situations (not all, but certainly in the most common situation - that is, nuking a single target). Given the extraordinary power of healing in WoW as a whole, I don't think that's too much to ask.

The fact that our experiences are completely at odds intrigues me. Theorycrafting, however, has never really appealed to me, so it'll have to wait until I've levelled my mage to 70, and then I'll take both him and my priest out with identical +dmg on and have a play.

I suppose. That said, if you have anywhere near the +damage of the frost mages in your guild, you should be pulling away from them rapidly already. Large crits can be fun, but that doesn't really make up for the fact that frost has terrible scaling and poor base damage.

[lfd]

Close I have no problem with. Beating me, that I do have a problem with, because I can't shift out of nuke form to heal

Any shadow priest that shifts out to heal, does any healing, and shifts back into shadowform has just spent a bucketload of mana and global cooldowns not doing any dps; that we have the versatility to do this -at the expense of both the damage we can do AND the healing power we provide- should not be a convincing argument. But since you already feel that any class that CAN heal should not be able to match you for dps by gimping their healing, that's another dead-end.

I'm not familiar with warlock trees, but I was under the impression that dps warlocks (and they do exist) were more destruction than affliction based.

Given the extraordinary power of healing in WoW as a whole, I don't think that's too much to ask.

Can you clarify what you mean by "extraordinary power of healing"? It's as meaningless as me saying "the extraordinary power of dps".

that doesn't really make up for the fact that frost has terrible scaling and poor base damage.

The same is true for mind flay, which is why they're fiddling around with the damage multiplier it receives and breaking things in the process. It needs a lower multiplier but higher base.

[ima_nerd]

Any shadow priest that shifts out to heal, does any healing, and shifts back into shadowform has just spent a bucketload of mana and global cooldowns not doing any dps; that we have the versatility to do this -at the expense of both the damage we can do AND the healing power we provide- should not be a convincing argument. But since you already feel that any class that CAN heal should not be able to match you for dps by gimping their healing, that's another dead-end.

Shouldn't be a convincing argument? Unless the game has completely changed, Shadow Priests provided more than just DPS in a raid. In my raids, we had a couple Shadow Priests who would DPS on trash and spot heal on boss fights. Utility doesn't always have to be shown in one pull. Switching roles between pulls is more a more believable display of a Shadow Priests versatility anyway. A Mage's utility compared to a Shadow Priest's utility is far less so a Mage's damage should make up for it.

[lfd]

Shouldn't be a convincing argument? Unless the game has completely changed, Shadow Priests provided more than just DPS in a raid.

So do mages.

A Mage's utility compared to a Shadow Priest's utility is far less so a Mage's damage should make up for it.

It does.

[ima_nerd]

A Mage's utility compared to a Shadow Priest's utility is far less so a Mage's damage should make up for it.

It does.

Surely a shadowpriest wearing -the best items- (and to get near 815 +dmg he must be pretty close to that, without consumables, unless he's wearing a lot of statless greens) [b]SHOULD come close to your dps, unless I missed the memo that said mages must be the highest single-target and multiple-target dps dealers full stop

No, he shouldn't. He should contribute a worthwhile amount of damage to the raid but he shouldn't be able to compete with a Mage. This is the same reason why DPS Warriors beating out/competing with Rogues was stupid. All a Rogue does is damage. Plan and simple. Therefore, they have the potential to do the most damage. A Mage provides some utility, so they can't beat out a Rogue (on paper) for damage. Priests, Shadow or not, bring quite a bit of utility so they shouldn't beat out Mages. I don't like pigeon-holing classes... but a healer-oriented class shouldn't be able to compete with a Mage for damage then turn around 10 seconds later and provide heavy healing support.

[Lissa]

The results are adjusted for gear maximization. The article explains this: the numbers are shifted to account for itemization choices. The idea is that giving each comparison the same +damage, +hit and +crit numbers doesn't properly model how shadow priests and affliction locks will favour pure +damage items over +crit items (since both classes are DoT-heavy and therefore cast a lot of spells that cannot crit). The way the numbers are set up, the mages are actually favoured in the analysis since they get to split their attack stats in different ways (which gets them "more" overall the way the item formula works) whereas shadow priests and affliction locks get a bit of hit and straight +damage otherwise.

Was an Affliction 'lock along on this run? Was there multiple 'locks? Without this context, things can paint a very different picture. You throw a Shadow Priest with Misery and Shadow Weaving, both maxed, with a Affliction 'Lock with Malediction maxed throwing up CoS and suddenly the damage of both will feed one another. Because of the changes to the Affliction Tree up high with the changes to Shadow Priests adding in Misery, the damage get multiplied to such a large extent that even though the spells do less damage on average than a similar mage spell, the multipliers throw the potential damage through the roof. When I'm running with a mage with my destruction build, I'm primarly using Immolate/Incinerate/Conflagrate and throwing up CoE and the mage with similar gear running a fire spec like yours always beats me even with the +10% fire damage from Emberstorm and having all the +damage options that destruction provides (although my present build is only doing +8% Incinerate damage since I didn't max SnF).

Likewise, most of the trash mobs die so quick right now that DoTs never tick to their full affect before the mob dies. The only time I see DoTs get their full length is on bosses or when the group is concentrating on another mob while the Warlock or Priest has DoTed up multiple mobs.