Nightbane

[Kevin]

It's a gear differential thing. Healing gear hasn't scaled well with the amount needing to be healed.

In AQ40, the Twin Emps would hit for, what, 10k? At that time, my Druid had 950 +heal.

Queue TBC. Nightbane is hitting for 16k in the same time the Twin Emps were hitting for 10k. Sirreal/Bolty's gear is sitting around, say, 1400 +heal. That's a 37.5% increase in damage taken but only a 32% increase in healing. In fact, it's even worse, since that increase in gear is tacked on to a base heal value. But, I just got out of an exam and am too tired to punch numbers.

Oh, but guess what, we're talking 10-man raids instead of 40-man!. Now, we have 2-3 healers trying to take care of that 37.5% increase in damage output on the tank with their sub-par 32% increase in gear and also heal everyone else.

Whereas, in AQ40, we had 3-4 healers on one tank, a couple healers dedicated to keeping DPS alive, etc.

See how the problem compounds?

Yes, but I was directing at mana conserving when possible. Paying attention to overheal can still matter.

And yes damage is worse, not as bad you are making it out though. That +1400 heal is more than 1400 since healing talents now apply after +heal instead of before so it should be at least 1540 for a holy priest and maybe even more depending on talents. Sirreal and Bolty can both have a renew running on the tank when they could only have one before, PoM gives some non cast time chewing reactive healing. I'm not saying it's keeping up with everything but it's obviously kept up with everything up to Nightbane since they've killed all that. I'm aware that healing gear hasn't kept pace with damage, but some of that is because healing gear was getting way too far ahead, it still may very well need to be adjusted. But some of the other changes mitigate some of the claims you are making about how far back it has fallen

I'm not saying that OMG you should be able to do Nightbane with 4 healers (only 2 heal spec'd) what's wrong with you!!!?one!! I was mostly addressing this whole "it's radically different". I ran MC before ZG/AQ20 or Dungeon 2 were in the game. I remember when we felt we needed 2 healers per tank on the domo guards, and then looking at the fact that raid overheal was pushing 35% on that fight and thinking no, we don't need that many per tank, we need to heal better. And healer gear didn't drop for us in the early days of MC. I also ran MC when we were so overgeared that one priest probably could have healed domo on his own. I fully believe that mana usage is as tight as possible for the people running Kara in that group.


I also don't disagree that the encounter itself may be designed poorly in that you might need 5 healers with 3 or 4 of them heal spec'd to get through it. But I also think Kara was designed a bit more with the 1 of every class + whatever idea behind it so the group Bolty is discussing isn't exactly ideal. As the quotes he mentioned elude to, that group doesn't really have any of the group mana returning classes, no paladin for the blessings or judgements (not that the judgement looks like it could be used) no shadow priest for VE/VT, no resto shaman for mana tide/mana stream. Mana tide = 24% of the parties mana every 5 minutes. Mana spring = 37.5 mana/5 the rest of the time (since the shaman would have the talent to get mana tide). Blessing of Wisdom without talents is 41 mana / 5. Those are all significant additions. The shadow priest cuts the amount of healing the decidated healers may need to do and can get mana back for them. The paladin helps get mana back and has less mana issues from being healed by others. The shaman provides a little bit more AoE healing, some fire and forget reactive (earth shield). You lose an innervate caster.

It's disheartening to hear that a group that isn't exactly ideal may be screwed. However I'm still not convinced that the healing game has changed all that much. Sure I've only healed a few of the early regular instances on my enhancement shaman, but I have still solo healed in TBC. I fully expect that to main heal a raid or heroic you need to be heal spec, that was something you didn't necessarily have to be before hand at least for the earlier raid instances (and you don't need to be for most of the non heroic 5 mans either in TBC). I'm just not sure the sky is falling or that healing is that radically different.

Oh well I'm not adding any value to this discussion. It'll be a month or more at best before I even see the encounter in question.

[Bolty]

It's disheartening to hear that a group that isn't exactly ideal may be screwed. However I'm still not convinced that the healing game has changed all that much. Sure I've only healed a few of the early regular instances on my enhancement shaman, but I have still solo healed in TBC. I fully expect that to main heal a raid or heroic you need to be heal spec, that was something you didn't necessarily have to be before hand at least for the earlier raid instances (and you don't need to be for most of the non heroic 5 mans either in TBC). I'm just not sure the sky is falling or that healing is that radically different.

Not radically different?

Normal mode instances: Cleoboltra casts Renew and Prayer of Mending, then scratches her butt and comments on how her father always used to say, "Shut up and get out." Once a minute or so, she casts Greater Heal. It's so laughably easy compared to heroic that it's quite normal for us to be on such a run and constantly go "on heroic, these guys hit for such-and-such" and "wow, this is a joke." Your whole perspective on instances changes once you start running heroics.

Heroic mode instances: Main Tank starts a pull of 5 mobs, one of which is sapped while the other will be sheeped. Prayer of Mending is already on him. Mobs approach. Cleoboltra queues a max-rank Greater Heal. BAM ZOMG Main Tank is hit by two mobs for 7500. Greater Heal lands for 4.5k. Cleoboltra gets aggro. Decision - hit Fade and suffer the 1.5 seconds of global cooldown, risking the Main Tank's life, or keep healing the Main Tank. I decide to Fade. Aggro returns to the Main Tank. BAM ZOMG the Main Tank, still getting slammed, is down to 3000 hit points, one-shot range. Flash Heal spam. Massive aggro build. Fade runs out, I have aggro. I'm one-shot for 11,000+ damage. At no time do I have the TIME to engage in defensive activities; even casting Psychic Scream costs me a 1.5 second global cooldown which sometimes leads to a tank's death. Prayer of Mending? Generally useless, because spending 1.5 seconds to heal a tank for 1500-1600 only gets him killed. We wipe.

Mana is very, very rarely the concern in heroic-mode instances. Any idiot can drink potions and use some tricks to keep going. It's sheer incoming damage that's the problem, damage that outpaces healing.

Nightbane is simply a numbers game. You must have this much healing to enter, and only 2 members of the raid spec'ed for healing without any kind of "mana battery" players to help can't be done.

I know you mean well, GG, but you're trying to pass judgement on things you haven't tried yet.

-Bolty

[TheDragoon]

This has been stated earlier in the thread, but to reiterate about the healing differences, it really comes down to one fundamental difference: Tanks are taking as much damage (comparatively) as they were in old raid instances (say… Twin Emperors or Nefarian for the first time you fought them) but you have a fraction of the number of healers available (10+ healers in the old raid instance versus 3 in our recent Nightbane attempts and 1 or 2 healers, max, in a heroic instance). Thus, the fact that mana regeneration isn't too different from the old game, healing has not scaled very well, the tanks are taking huge chunks of damage and you have fewer healers means that each healer needs to really be pouring on the healing. They cannot sustain that sort of output without pounding consumables (which is annoying and expensive) or adding more healers.

More healers means more total healing throughput, better longevity and better chance of having your heals land in that instant where the tank just got smacked for 10k damage and another 10k is on its way in a second or two. All of those help to make things drastically easier as far as healing goes. Before there were tons of healers available, now there are few... Thus things work out harder than before. All of the heal-cancelling strategizing in the world won't save you if the tank takes a huge damage spike when several of the healers just started casting their heals because he might well die before the casts finish. It's harsh but very true in the TBC raid/heroic healing game.


And, to get back to Nightbane, adding more healers is certainly a way to go. You don't really need a whole lot of DPS on him. You really just need 2 tanks, a couple DPS classes and then a bunch of healers. The big problem with the encounter is the fact that Karazhan, as a whole, is designed to be done with 3 healers, 2 tanks and as much DPS as you can bring to the table. Nightbane is the big exception due to the lack of an enrage timer, hence the problems we have had. We do not want to (and generally cannot) stack the raid just for his fight, but it would definitely make things easier, particularly in light of the lack of Paladins in our raid.

[Mirajj]

It's disheartening to hear that a group that isn't exactly ideal may be screwed.

I'll address this part, as I'm not a healer and healing isn't really my forte. But as I've run through a good chunk of Kara with less than optimal groups (some times 8 or 9manning stuff) you tend to see what encounters are designed for what.

Attumen: Pushover. As long as you have two tanky types and two healy types, you are fine.

Moroes: You want at least 1 priest here. Two priests makes it much easier. 3 almost makes it a joke. A skilled hunter can also trapdance one of the adds.

Maiden: Blizz can't decide what they want with this boss, but she's never been THAT hard. Just about any group can/should take her.

Oz: There are a bunch of different strats for this fight, so a mixed group should have no problems here. Just figure out what works best for your crew.

Big Bad Wolf: Pushover. If your raiders can kite in a square, you can win this fight.

Romulo and Julianne: Two solid tanks, and 3 solid healers. Not neccessarily healer specced, but you want them with good healing gear.

Curator: Straight up DPS fight. Bring as much as you can get away with.

Chess Event: As long as someone plays the healers, it's "lolfreepurpz". But a lot of fun. I always have a blast playing that event.

Aran: Bring a warlock. Or two priests (Fear rotations). Or expect to wipe here for weeks. For Lolezmode Aran, bring 2 warlocks. For "That was a boss?" mode, bring 3.;)

And, as the group I run with tends to not have a warlock, or 2 priests in it, that's as far as we've gotten. So I can't speak for Illhoof, Netherspite, Prince or Nightbane.

[Artega]

You're going way crazy with the Heroic mode instances, Bolty. While the mobs DO hit hard, I've never had any mob (or even bosses in their enraged state) hit me for more than about 4,000 or so in a single hit (well, I've had Capacitus hit me for 5700 during his brief enrage.) Even on pulls where there's more than a couple of mobs to tank, I can usually secure enough aggro to keep a peel from occuring after the first heal. I haven't yet done Shattered Halls on Heroic (I've primarily been corraled for Mechanar and occasionally some Slave Pens), so maybe this is where you're seeing hits for 7500 (the gladiators, maybe?) I still think that you pulling aggro on the first heal is the tank's problem, not yours, however.

[Dynatos]

You're going way crazy with the Heroic mode instances, Bolty. While the mobs DO hit hard, I've never had any mob (or even bosses in their enraged state) hit me for more than about 4,000 or so in a single hit (well, I've had Capacitus hit me for 5700 during his brief enrage.) Even on pulls where there's more than a couple of mobs to tank, I can usually secure enough aggro to keep a peel from occuring after the first heal. I haven't yet done Shattered Halls on Heroic (I've primarily been corraled for Mechanar and occasionally some Slave Pens), so maybe this is where you're seeing hits for 7500 (the gladiators, maybe?) I still think that you pulling aggro on the first heal is the tank's problem, not yours, however.

Heroic Blood Furnace. The 2-Felguard pulls near the end. Each Felguard hits for 8k. It's only doable with 1 healer if you have a Warlock, and even then it's tricky. Mathom (feral Druid), Midori, Kateley (Mages), Bevock (Paladin), and I, all strong players, did it without a Banish available. Mathom was being literally one-shotted by the 2 Felguards hitting him at once - Bevock (a holy Paladin) and myself (a holy Priest) had to heal spam like you wouldn't believe.

[Tuftears]

While the mobs DO hit hard, I've never had any mob (or even bosses in their enraged state) hit me for more than about 4,000 or so in a single hit

The trouble is that, for instance at the outset of Heroic Underbog, you have two hard-hitters like this both hitting for that much, and a healer mob to keep them alive. This zone is not doable without some kind of CC that works on the elementals.

As far as heroic Ramparts goes, you have to identify which of the mobs are the hard hitter and step up your healing when they're on, i.e. the Raveners have some kind of switch under which they will do greatly increased damage.

For the priests, Inner Fire adds 1580 more (untalented).

Oh hey. So call it 6k armor on the thoroughly potioned priest: that'd be 48.59% damage reduction!

I think it's weird and Smoking Blast is bugged if it does armor-mitigated physical damage, but I'm greatly curious to hear if this might actually be a viable strategy. (We've previously seen a wand that does physical damage)

Kind of argues that Blizzard isn't testing their games properly though, if they missed the damage type - their testers can't have missed the amount of damage that Smoking Blast does.

[Bolty]

Kind of argues that Blizzard isn't testing their games properly though, if they missed the damage type - their testers can't have missed the amount of damage that Smoking Blast does.

Tuft, the damage that Smoking Blast does is the nerfed amount. It used to do a lot more and Blizzard tuned it down in a hotfix a few weeks back.

Which clearly means they intend for it to be physical damage, making Priest healers a liability in the fight due to their fragility.

-Bolty

[Tuftears]

Should have remembered this, but Defenders in heroic Slave Pens do hit for that much too. And of course, the Felguards are particularly nasty.

There're heroic Bog Overlords at the end of Underbog that can two-shot your tank in an instant too - they do a 7.5k knockback or so, followed by a 7.5k attack (edit: on PLATE). For those, since they come alone, it's simply a crapshoot whether you'll make it or not.

[Lissa]

Heroic Blood Furnace. The 2-Felguard pulls near the end. Each Felguard hits for 8k. It's only doable with 1 healer if you have a Warlock, and even then it's tricky. Mathom (feral Druid), Midori, Kateley (Mages), Bevock (Paladin), and I, all strong players, did it without a Banish available. Mathom was being literally one-shotted by the 2 Felguards hitting him at once - Bevock (a holy Paladin) and myself (a holy Priest) had to heal spam like you wouldn't believe.

Those said same Felguards hit cloth for 12.5k (that's hit, not crit or crush) which one shots any clothie, leather wearer, and some mail.

[Lissa]

You're going way crazy with the Heroic mode instances, Bolty. While the mobs DO hit hard, I've never had any mob (or even bosses in their enraged state) hit me for more than about 4,000 or so in a single hit (well, I've had Capacitus hit me for 5700 during his brief enrage.) Even on pulls where there's more than a couple of mobs to tank, I can usually secure enough aggro to keep a peel from occuring after the first heal. I haven't yet done Shattered Halls on Heroic (I've primarily been corraled for Mechanar and occasionally some Slave Pens), so maybe this is where you're seeing hits for 7500 (the gladiators, maybe?) I still think that you pulling aggro on the first heal is the tank's problem, not yours, however.

How many mobs have you had hitting you and how much CC did you have on those runs? Try some of the other mobs in other instances like the Bog Giants in Heroic SMV, 3 mobs hitting you at once (like Heroic SH, the guantlet at Murmur, areas in Botanica, and Sethekk Hall guards) and see how much damage you take then. Your basis here is pretty limited as Mechanar and Slave Pens are considered the joke heroics compared to others (I've heard Heroic Mechanar referred to as Tokenar).

[Kevin]

This is very likely a zero value post as well, but I'm venting and what I'm venting about very isn't likely what I'm going to type, I understand displacement theory and I know that I'm pissed at things in life not in game so you probably just want to skip this post.

Mana is very, very rarely the concern in heroic-mode instances. Any idiot can drink potions and use some tricks to keep going. It's sheer incoming damage that's the problem, damage that outpaces healing.

Nightbane is simply a numbers game. You must have this much healing to enter, and only 2 members of the raid spec'ed for healing without any kind of "mana battery" players to help can't be done.

I know you mean well, GG, but you're trying to pass judgement on things you haven't tried yet.

-Bolty

If mana isn't an issue then why did you quote people talking about being out of mana? Why did you say you can't do it without a mana battery class?


And once again, if damage outpaces healing then you need to do something else besides changing how you heal to keep up with it.

This hasn't changed. If damage outpaced healing in MC you brought more healers, got better gear, used more consumables, split the pull with FD tricks from the hunter (not that there were usually more than 1 or 2 mobs in MC, but there were actually pulls that were normally looked at 2 or 3 pulls that could be split). Or you do some kind of off tanking so that incoming damage to the one source is slowed. That isn't different. It's more prevelant but it isn't different.

Maybe the mis understanding is that I'm looking at things at a much simpler level. The game is simple. And healing hasn't changed. You put out more healing per second than damage per second and you do that for the whole time the mob is alive. Again I'm looking at things on the very base level here. I freely admit the damage rates in Heroics may require you to have 2 healers in the group or a ton of CC in the group for some pulls. That is not different from when you had 3 - 4 healers per tank when you first started doing Twin Emps or 2 healers per tank for domo. The basics of you need to heal X HP/s for Y time on Z targets is the same. It's not radically different that a priest can't sleep at the keyboard. Not for what I'm talking about.

This is also why I said I wasn't adding value because I couldn't help on the specifics and the basics should be pretty well known. My definition of radically different is not the same as yours. As talked about in another thread the impact of the healer and tank on the group has been lessened, but the mechanics of what they do haven't really changed. As I said the mechanics for how a hunter does damage is a bigger change than the mechanics of healing or tanking. As you said in the other thread, good use of CC or off tanking or higher DPS is now more important than they had been. Tradtional tanking might not work as well, you may have to kite the mob, pull with misdirection to make sure the tank has more aggro than the heal will put out, etc, but the job of the healer hasn't really changed you play whack a mole, you decide which type of heal to use, you determine if HP/s is more important than HP/mana. You whack more moles or you whack moles faster depending on other things, but it hasn't changed. The difference is that you the healer might not be able to do anything different and the rest of the group has to.

So yeah I don't know why I'm bothering. I admit that without seeing the fight I can't really offer anything else. Why heroics even came up in the topic I don't know.

And yeah I haven't really done heroics, but I've done regular 5 mans with a pet tanking, so lower aggro, less HP and mit on the tank. Yeah it's not the same damage per second that you see in heroics. It's not the same.

And yes, deadmines is not the same as AQ40, but lessons you learned in deadmines still apply to AQ40. The basics of beating the deadmines still apply to beating AQ40. But since I haven't seen all of this I guess I should throw out what I know, what I've used since day 1 to figure out how to handle new stuff. I guess the toolbox that I used for 5 mans and the old world raids without issue just isn't good enough. Sorry. I'm done even if directly responded to.

[Tuftears]

but the job of the healer hasn't really changed you play whack a mole, you decide which type of heal to use, you determine if HP/s is more important than HP/mana. You whack more moles or you whack moles faster depending on other things, but it hasn't changed. The difference is that you the healer might not be able to do anything different and the rest of the group has to.

And yet, the mole whacking paradigm changes in some way in the raiding game, because whacking the mole is no longer effective after the mole has popped up, you have to start whacking the mole before it pops up.

The current dispute seems to be that the moles are getting bigger than the mallets will allow you to whack.

[Lissa]

This is very likely a zero value post as well, but I'm venting and what I'm venting about very isn't likely what I'm going to type, I understand displacement theory and I know that I'm pissed at things in life not in game so you probably just want to skip this post.
If mana isn't an issue then why did you quote people talking about being out of mana? Why did you say you can't do it without a mana battery class?
And once again, if damage outpaces healing then you need to do something else besides changing how you heal to keep up with it.

This hasn't changed. If damage outpaced healing in MC you brought more healers, got better gear, used more consumables, split the pull with FD tricks from the hunter (not that there were usually more than 1 or 2 mobs in MC, but there were actually pulls that were normally looked at 2 or 3 pulls that could be split). Or you do some kind of off tanking so that incoming damage to the one source is slowed. That isn't different. It's more prevelant but it isn't different.

Maybe the mis understanding is that I'm looking at things at a much simpler level. The game is simple. And healing hasn't changed. You put out more healing per second than damage per second and you do that for the whole time the mob is alive. Again I'm looking at things on the very base level here. I freely admit the damage rates in Heroics may require you to have 2 healers in the group or a ton of CC in the group for some pulls. That is not different from when you had 3 - 4 healers per tank when you first started doing Twin Emps or 2 healers per tank for domo. The basics of you need to heal X HP/s for Y time on Z targets is the same. It's not radically different that a priest can't sleep at the keyboard. Not for what I'm talking about.

This is also why I said I wasn't adding value because I couldn't help on the specifics and the basics should be pretty well known. My definition of radically different is not the same as yours. As talked about in another thread the impact of the healer and tank on the group has been lessened, but the mechanics of what they do haven't really changed. As I said the mechanics for how a hunter does damage is a bigger change than the mechanics of healing or tanking. As you said in the other thread, good use of CC or off tanking or higher DPS is now more important than they had been. Tradtional tanking might not work as well, you may have to kite the mob, pull with misdirection to make sure the tank has more aggro than the heal will put out, etc, but the job of the healer hasn't really changed you play whack a mole, you decide which type of heal to use, you determine if HP/s is more important than HP/mana. You whack more moles or you whack moles faster depending on other things, but it hasn't changed. The difference is that you the healer might not be able to do anything different and the rest of the group has to.

So yeah I don't know why I'm bothering. I admit that without seeing the fight I can't really offer anything else. Why heroics even came up in the topic I don't know.

And yeah I haven't really done heroics, but I've done regular 5 mans with a pet tanking, so lower aggro, less HP and mit on the tank. Yeah it's not the same damage per second that you see in heroics. It's not the same.

And yes, deadmines is not the same as AQ40, but lessons you learned in deadmines still apply to AQ40. The basics of beating the deadmines still apply to beating AQ40. But since I haven't seen all of this I guess I should throw out what I know, what I've used since day 1 to figure out how to handle new stuff. I guess the toolbox that I used for 5 mans and the old world raids without issue just isn't good enough. Sorry. I'm done even if directly responded to.

GG, in those instances where mana is an issue, you can't kite, because you're dealing with a boss that can do 2 or 3 special moves simulatneously, if the tank isn't at 80%+ health, these special moves can, and will, kill the tank (we've seen Tal go from near full health, around 16k fully buffed, to less than 5% health in a split second). You also cannot kite in this type of instance cause you're typically dealing with a boss. Raid bosses under 10 man and heroic hit on the same order as some of the 25 man bosses, but the difference there is with those 25 man bosses you have 2 to 3 times as many healers giving you the leverage that you do not have in a 10 man or a heroic.

Nightbane is literally a fight where if you do not have a Paladin, you're screwed. With a Paladin, the fight would probably be a lot easier as the Paladin can pull all the skeletons onto themselves, while maxing their healing threat to take the breath attack from Nightbane on them while he's flying thus leaving the other healers time to regen mana or help deal with whoever gets rain of bones or help the pally keep topped off. Fights should not be designed around having very specific classes in mind to be there like Nightbane (Aran being designed around having atleast one warlock, Netherspite being designed around having a warlock, two tanks, a rogue, and a feral druid, Moroes requiring one priest, if not two).

So in the end, while is sounds good on paper that you should be able to depend on things you learned in the past, that's not always the case and very likely some of the frustration that we're feeling on certain fights may be felt by you when you get to some fights. While you may have an easier time on fights that we're finding difficult because we don't have that special class, you may run into fights were you're having difficulty because you don't have that special class where others may breeze through because they do have that special class. Karazhan is an instance that has a lot of interesting boss fights, but it also has some of the most frustrating boss fights in the game. Likewise, healers are also becoming more frustrated because they cannot keep up in relative power to the damage being handed out in Karazhan and heroic instances where trash can do a ton of damage and bosses can flatten a tank in a heartbeat.

[Kevin]

deleted

[NotSoDarklord]

Should have remembered this, but Defenders in heroic Slave Pens do hit for that much too. And of course, the Felguards are particularly nasty.

There're heroic Bog Overlords at the end of Underbog that can two-shot your tank in an instant too - they do a 7.5k knockback or so, followed by a 7.5k attack (edit: on PLATE). For those, since they come alone, it's simply a crapshoot whether you'll make it or not.

Bog overlords are a DPS race to down them before they grow to unmanageable buff stack. Defenders in slave pens are easily kited and there is only one pull that includes two defenders and more than one other mob. (A skippable pull) Two out of three of these mobs have clear strategies to make the pulls less rough. Nightbane comes right out of the gate looking to two shot your tank. This fight makes me breath a sigh of relief when it's over for the week, the prince is probably the only other khara fight.

[Frag]

(Aran being designed around having atleast one warlock, Netherspite being designed around having a warlock, two tanks, a rogue, and a feral druid, Moroes requiring one priest, if not two).

Like GG, I probably shouldn't be responding to this thread, but I feel I needed to point something out:

Please don't spread misinformation. Those fights are designed to have certain abilities available.

The fact that Shackle is simply the most direct ability of CC on Moroes adds' does not mean it was built assuming one would be along. I'm mildly suprised to hear you feel you need to have three specific classes on Netherspite when, with mediorce raid composition, no voice communication, and people that didn't know each other all that well, we've defeated him during a beta semi-pickup run. He's an execution fight, I don't feel that saying it's built to have *those classes* along is wise as it's likely to close peoples' minds to variance in [e.g. what class eats what beam]. From what I observed Blizzard has not been designing TBC fights with specific specs/classes along. It sure as hell IS easier to drop Netherspite with a warlock along, but that doesn't mean it's "required" in any sense of the definition.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

[Mirajj]

Please don't spread misinformation. Those fights are designed to have certain abilities available.

What's the difference between saying "we need x ability for this fight" or "we need x class (who is the only class who can perform that ability) for this fight"?

[Meshuggah]

Hi:)Been a while..:)

On a sidenote.. I don't get to raid KZ that much due to odd working hours, so I stick to my 34/27/0 hybrid build with imp spiritbuff and PI. (Love the build... Love the bugged Surge of Light:)

Cuurently, I have most experience with underbog heroic, but have also tried Setthek Halls, Old Hills, and ShH. I've been main healer in SeH and OH, and even with my build (and 3 pieces T2, 3 pieces Pmooncloth + borderline epix) I didn't find healing those 2 heroics that hard. We had a shammy along with us, but there was no use of Tranq Air. Especially SeH was a breeze.. We managed first boss even tho shammy got dc right at the pull, and last boss was no prob even tho 2 of the others missed the AoE (don't ask) leaving me + tank + shammy to finish of the last 50%

In UB and ShH I've been dps, mindcontroller and backup healer, bringing 3 different sets of gear depending on the situation. Mind controlling acolytes (or is it oracles) in ShH is great.. Insane PoH, PW:S, and a shadowres buff (110iirc) that stacks with the priest buff. They're often selfbuffed tho, so dispel them before MCing.. Bring some +hit and Spell Pen, and they're yours forever:)If they're not around.. pick up a darkcaster and rain some fire on them... Anyways.. I can see ShH being a pain for a clothie to heal in.. we had a pala, and he took some beating from time to time, despite salvation being on all the time. I have a hard time imagining ShH w/o threat reduction, or MASSIVE cc.

Underbog, another great place for MCing before secong boss, has those Bog Lords that required both me and a totally holy priest to spam flash heals. The was not a chance that he could keep the healing up by himself.

Well.. I generally consider myself being a very good hybrid for heroics. My mana was at least enough to keep constant dps on last boss in ShH (just use pot, ManaMonster and Inner Focus ASAP, dont wanna waste them coming off cd), and I DO good dps. Esp with a pala around. I can juggle dps, PoM, Renew and PoH to support the main healer, and IMO, Mindcontrol really shines in BC. Wardens and Mages in OldH, Menders in Botanica, Oracles in Steamvaults (silence the sirens:), Shadowpriests and Oracles in SL, Healers in Underbog... Well... the list goes on.. Maybe I should start taking notes and put a list together...

Bedtime. Just thought I'd throw a few words in, tho I'm really not replying to anything, just rambling a bit about priests and heroics:)

cyas

oh btw... AC is for cowards!

[Frag]

What's the difference between saying "we need x ability for this fight" or "we need x class (who is the only class who can perform that ability) for this fight"?

The difference is that sometimes, what people view as a neccessary class, is actually just a neccessary function that can be provided in an alternate way via some other class. Simple example:

Priests on Moroes (for Shackle).
Depending on mob-type, you can have these classes sub for that very direct method of CC:

Rogue - Anti-cast lock & kite.
Mage - cs, burst down & kite.
Hunter - trap, pet-tank, self-tank & kite.
Warlock - pet-tank, drain-tank & kite.
Warrior - tank-tank (it's a joke) & kite.
Druid - bear-tank (+anti-cast), dash, cyclone spam / rotation with other methods.
Paladin - fear, tank, heal-spam, stun.
Shaman - Elemental, FROST SHOCK! kite.

I think that's every class, and each one of them has a way to take little or low amounts of dmg while keeping an add occupied. As said earlier, that's simply an easy example of a concept that can be applied to most encounters.

Please keep in mind, I'm not advocating deliberately making an encounter harder (unless you're into that side of things:w00t:) what I'm advocating is trying to keep an open mind when approaching the new content. I've personally seen, or ancedotely heard of nearly every imaginable group composition completing Khara. About the only thing that seems out of whack to me (and something we didn't catch in beta as we used consumables like water. A few select people transferred over the guild bank a few times...) is consumable use. Hopefully the cliff-hanger Tigole threw us addresses that.

Cheerio,
~Frag B)