2.1.0 Patch Notes

[Delc]

The tier sets have always been inferior to non-set stuff for a lot of classes, this is nothing new with tier 4 and 5.

As for the ap/crit/agi vs mana issue, its called being a caster (most mages would love to arcane blast spam for the whole fight). It would be nice if we all had unlimited mana/rage/energy but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Lissa]

All other things being equal, if you're spending gems on MP5, you're not spending them on agi/AP/crit.

Hunters do have Blue sockets you know. Considering their is a blue gem that is pure MP5, there's an option right there because AP/Agi are both Red based and Hit/Crit are Yellow based.

I'm sorry, what?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you want from a set is agility, attack power, crit, intellect, MP5, stamina, and +hit (and mostly in that order--at least as soon as you have a moderate amount of +hit already). Now, I'm no expert, but Rift Stalker seems to have all of that. That's not mentioning the three yellow sockets and the three red sockets, the meta socket and the blue socket. How is that junk? From what I can see, it has basically no wasted stats at all. Compare that to the live version of Nordrassil Harness or Malorne Harness--littered with almost worthless spirit, crit rating (which is crap for a Feral druid), too much int, and barely any increased armor.

The current Nordrassil Harness is almost perfect. Good armor, nice array of stats, mostly focused on strength and stamina, with plenty of agility and some int thrown in (which is utterly useless to me, as I'll be tanking most of the time, but it's useful for DPS, so whatever). Current Malorne is good, though the gloves are utter crap. No agility, instead crit rating--and they cost the same in terms of item points.

While Demon Stalker and Rift Stalker aren't perfect, they seem like good sets to me. The set bonuses look somewhat useless at first glance, but then, it's the same with mine.

And Ranger-General's Chestguard is better gives you a better chest piece than Rift Stalker chest piece. Also you have the Void Reaver Greaves which is again superior to the Rift Stalker legs. The fact is, the tier pieces are inferior to random drops from bosses. Everytime they've updated one, the others have been updated and Tiers have been worse.

And uh, what's with the name repetition? We can easily see whom you're replying to.
As far as I know, gear isn't restricted to spec, so what exactly is your point...? A BM or MM hunter could go for agility as well.

And then they do even less damage then they do now. Survival can go for max Agi because they have a talent that boosts it even further. They also have a talent that gives them another 3% crit and a talent that gives them 3% hit. This means that for a Survival Hunter they can get away with about 40 less hit rating to still max out their hit thus allowing them to look at getting more Agi and more Crit.

Bosses are immune. I doubt trash is, though of course I've not set foot in anything beyond Gruul's Lair. (And Maulgar's adds at least are stunnable.)

Wait till you get to Mag's Lair and find out the truth about trash mobs being susceptible to CC. You have to kill 12 mobs before getting to Mag's himself and they're all immune to CC.

Maybe the voices you're speaking of aren't taking everything into perspective. Sounds like it, from my point of view as an outsider on the class.

They're looking at ways to do things differently to make themselves less dependent on raid stacking. Sounds to me like they're actually trying to look at everything and find the best balance to achieve this.

"Baby steps", my ass. They're not exactly on Blizzard's track record.

2.0.10: "We've tested things extensively and Druids are dealing too much damage right now" --> net effect: Mangle nerfed hard (went from 156% to 100%). Hotfixed right after the patch for threat issues (which the forums had already told them would happen).
2.1: Mangle damage buffed (to 115%), threat bonus lessened to keep it more or less the same.

Yeah, "baby steps". Sorry, I'm a little bitter.:angry:

Nope, it hasn't been Blizzard's track record, but there's hope that they are changing their attitude to make things work out better.

[TheDragoon]

How are warriors now? Better than in 1.0, for the most part. How are feral druids now? Still better than feral in 1.0. How are elemental shamans? They'll still be better than in 1.0. How are hunters going to be? Better than in 1.0.

The question "Are we better than in 1.0" is a poor gauge for progress, in my opinion. Each patch should be able to say that the game is better in this patch than in the previous patch. If it is not, then why change?

(Like hunters needed much buffs anyway, as GG said. They're the kings of farm/solo/quest. Only fitting that they can't be the kings of everything, which seems to me to be what some posters want.)

This is an argument that I just never seem to understand. It is basically saying that classes should either be "the PvP class", "the raiding class", "the grinding class", "the underwater herbalist class" or some other narrow style of play, but it should not be good at all of these things. Do people really think this because it makes absolutely zero sense to me.

In my opinion, the goal should be to make all classes equally good at each facet of the game, but in its own distinctive way. Accordingly, in a utopian game design, each class would be good at grinding up mobs, they would all be equally useful to bring on raids, they would all bring a wealth of abilities to the PvP game, but all with a different flavor. Does anyone disagree that this would be the ultimate example of a balanced, fun, varied game?

In reality, this sort of balance is something of a pipe dream. Given the mechanical differences between battlegrounds PvP, arena play, end-game raiding, solo content, 5-man instances, 5-man heroics, and any number of other facets of the game, it becomes exceedingly difficult to have a wide array of classes that all play differently with different mechanics that are all equal in their usefulness and power in these situations. Some things that would help balance a character for arena play might make the class overpowered or weak for 5-man instances and grinding. As such, trades end up being made to reach some semblence of overall balance to the game. The end result of this is that a given class is usually not good at each thing. Healers tend to have less damage output (because if they had good damage output, they would be overpowered in PvP) which makes them less useful for grinding. DPS classes have to be balanced around survivability, crowd control and damage output or they will become overpowering for either raiding, 5-mans, or PvP… often resulting in them being less good at one or more of the gaming styles available in the game. However, if given the understanding and creativity necessary to make a class that is perfectly balanced at all things (good at raiding, good at PvP, good at grinding, good in the arena, good in 5-mans, etc, but not overpowered in any), should that class design really be dumbed down simply because the other class designs are not as perfect? I would say no, that is what the designers should strive for and any chance they get to come close to that level of excellence, they should, regardless of whether the players of other classes are jealous that their class has not yet achieved that level of perfect design with its own flavors and quirks.

[Mirajj]

(Like hunters needed much buffs anyway, as GG said. They're the kings of farm/solo/quest. Only fitting that they can't be the kings of everything, which seems to me to be what some posters want.)

Mavfin, be a man and pull the damn stick out of your ass about whatever your problem is. I have told you many times that I do not want hunters to be "the kings of everything." That is what YOU want for every tree a warrior has. What I would LIKE is for hunters to be competitive. Now, because you don't seem to understand what that means, I do not want hunters to top the damage meters every single time for every single fight in the game. What it does mean is that I'd like to see hunters brought along on a raid for a reason that didn't solely involve "Misdirection". How I see the raid DPS hierarchy? Rogues > Mages/Warlocks/Hunters, depending on the situation/fight. Right now, unless a raid is really stacked for it, no matter what a hunter does, s/he will end up at the bottom of the dps pile unless the other dps'ers are slacking or poorly geared. A dps'er of any flavor should easily be able to outperform a dps'er (of any class) who's slacking or half asleep at the wheel. Right now, that's not true for hunters.

[Taelas]

Hunters do have Blue sockets you know. Considering their is a blue gem that is pure MP5, there's an option right there because AP/Agi are both Red based and Hit/Crit are Yellow based.

You can still put red/yellow gems in blue sockets. Heck, you can take blue/red gems--shifting nightseye, for instance, which gives both +agi and +stam, without losing the socket bonus if it's good. You could probably fit in a bit of MP5 if you wanted, but unless the socket bonus really rocks, there's little point in it. I don't know anyone who adheres to the socket color when it deviates from what is "best". I'm putting three Solid Stars of Elune in my Heavy Clefthoof Vest come patch day, regardless of the fact that it only has one blue socket.

And Ranger-General's Chestguard is better gives you a better chest piece than Rift Stalker chest piece. Also you have the Void Reaver Greaves which is again superior to the Rift Stalker legs. The fact is, the tier pieces are inferior to random drops from bosses. Everytime they've updated one, the others have been updated and Tiers have been worse.

Sorry, that's just not a good argument. Ferals don't even HAVE off-set pieces. What does it matter whether or not it's part of a set as long as it's THERE?

And then they do even less damage then they do now. Survival can go for max Agi because they have a talent that boosts it even further. They also have a talent that gives them another 3% crit and a talent that gives them 3% hit. This means that for a Survival Hunter they can get away with about 40 less hit rating to still max out their hit thus allowing them to look at getting more Agi and more Crit.

Then perhaps pure Agility and crit isn't the best way to go.

Wait till you get to Mag's Lair and find out the truth about trash mobs being susceptible to CC. You have to kill 12 mobs before getting to Mag's himself and they're all immune to CC.

Maggy's lair isn't the final boss in the game. I'm certain there's trash in SSC which is CCable.

They're looking at ways to do things differently to make themselves less dependent on raid stacking. Sounds to me like they're actually trying to look at everything and find the best balance to achieve this.

Maybe. But when there are two factions, each saying their perspective is right, who do you believe? Personally I tend to put my faith in whom puts forth a better argument.

Nope, it hasn't been Blizzard's track record, but there's hope that they are changing their attitude to make things work out better.

Hope's a good thing. I'm a little more cautious nowadays, but then, I'm pretty much satisfied with my class (I just wish we had better itemization).

[Monkey]

I'm not angry about the nerf itself, I'm angry at how it happened. If it was overpowered, why was it allowed in the expansion in the first place? If the nerf was required, why are they now taking some of it back?

Blizzard tends, throughout its games, to make the initial nerf heavy. I'd guess that's just psychology. There will almost always need to be multiple steps in any balancing process. 3 steps down feels worse than 1 step down and 2 steps up, even if the ability ends up at the same power level.

As for why it was allowed in the expansion in the first place, I've given this a lot of thought and even considered various tinfoil-hat theories. But I settled on simple resource triage: Blizzard spent their limited time producing what they felt were attractive abilities and bugfixing them. They didn't balance test because TBC was already behind schedule and they simply didn't have time. This is the simplest and most reasonable explanation in my mind for why we're still seeing huge changes through itemization and class abilities.

[Artega]

Last night, while flipping through some Paladin forums, I found out that Spiritual Attunement will not generate Mana if there is even a single point of overheal present. If you were down 1,000 HP and got a heal for 1,001, you get no Mana back. This is a fairly devastating blow to Paladin tanking (particularly Paladin main-tanking), so I'm hoping they fix this before the patch goes live. Nerfing Holy Paladin-Shadow Priest synergy is fine, but castrating Paladin tanking is not:(

[Lissa]

You can still put red/yellow gems in blue sockets. Heck, you can take blue/red gems--shifting nightseye, for instance, which gives both +agi and +stam, without losing the socket bonus if it's good. You could probably fit in a bit of MP5 if you wanted, but unless the socket bonus really rocks, there's little point in it. I don't know anyone who adheres to the socket color when it deviates from what is "best". I'm putting three Solid Stars of Elune in my Heavy Clefthoof Vest come patch day, regardless of the fact that it only has one blue socket.

And sometimes it's better to put gems of the appropriate colors in the sockets to maximize the gem bonus. If you look at some of the orange, green, and purple gems, you'll see that some of the stats don't add you very well, case in point is your mention of shifting nightseye which is +4 agi and +6 stamina. Some classes are better served by using a pure color gem vs. a mixed color gem, Hunter happens to be one where the mixed color gems don't give them much of a boost over a pure color gem.

Sorry, that's just not a good argument. Ferals don't even HAVE off-set pieces. What does it matter whether or not it's part of a set as long as it's THERE?

The point being is this, you can find better non-set items than going with the sets. This hasn't changed in anyway and has pretty much always been this way. The difference between now and then is back then the set bonuses could overrule some of the advantages of not going with the set. Case in point is the Nemisis 8 piece bonus, the 5 piece Doomcaller bonus, and the 2 piece and 6 piece Plagueheart bonuses. Now the set bonuses just do not make up the difference between trying to put the set together versus just going with best of drops.

Then perhaps pure Agility and crit isn't the best way to go.

For a non-Survival Hunter, correct, for a Survival Hunter, incorrect. For non-Survival Hunters, they tend to push AP and Crit, but they cannot achieve as high a Crit as a Survival Hunter because the Survival Hunter has things stacked in their direction for Crit. If you look at the trees for a Hunter, BM focuses on pet and attack speed to do damage, Marksman focuses on AP and some crit to increase damage, Survival focuses on Agi and Crit to increase damage.

Maggy's lair isn't the final boss in the game. I'm certain there's trash in SSC which is CCable.

We were talking more specifically about Silencing Shot and Scattershot. So far I haven't seen a mob past Karazhan that can be silenced which means Silencing Shot has no use in raids out of additional DPS. Scattershot, again, haven't seen a mob past Karazhan that can be disoriented.

Maybe. But when there are two factions, each saying their perspective is right, who do you believe?

I tend to stick with someone that is actively trying to find a way to work with issues at hand to make things better vs. someone that is going to try a couple things and then throw up their hands. To me, someone that continues to put forth an effort to figure something out is atleast trying to find out if it's possible or not and when they finally speak, they're going to speak with more knowledge on the subject and can give effective and useful feedback.

Personally I tend to put my faith in whom puts forth a better argument.

And how are you going to put forth a better argument if you don't spend some time trying to figure out the problems and determining a way to fix them? Someone that tries a couple things and gives up isn't going to be able to see all the little nuiances to fix the situation, someone that keeps plugging at the issue will begin to see the little things and be able to see those nuiances and bring forth a constructive argument that helps the situation.

Hope's a good thing. I'm a little more cautious nowadays, but then, I'm pretty much satisfied with my class (I just wish we had better itemization).

Itemization is the problem everyone has. I can't remember who said it, but Blizzard has one person that knows how to itemize well and like 10 to 15 people that don't, and when you find those items that one person has itemized, it shows.

[Pesmerga]

We were talking more specifically about Silencing Shot and Scattershot. So far I haven't seen a mob past Karazhan that can be silenced which means Silencing Shot has no use in raids out of additional DPS. Scattershot, again, haven't seen a mob past Karazhan that can be disoriented.

Granted, I've only seen Gruul's Lair, but Olm can be silenced with silencing shot. Particulary useful when rogues are saving their stuns for regular heals, and I need to stop the Prayer of Healing he does.

[Kevin]

Last night, while flipping through some Paladin forums, I found out that Spiritual Attunement will not generate Mana if there is even a single point of overheal present. If you were down 1,000 HP and got a heal for 1,001, you get no Mana back. This is a fairly devastating blow to Paladin tanking (particularly Paladin main-tanking), so I'm hoping they fix this before the patch goes live. Nerfing Holy Paladin-Shadow Priest synergy is fine, but castrating Paladin tanking is not:(

Yeah this has to be a bug. I understand that you don't want overheal to give mana back. Having a HoT running that isn't doing any healing but is giving the pally mana was an issue. But what should happen is that if the pally is down 1000 health and gets healed for 1001 they should get 100 mana back. If the heal was for 2000 they should get 100 mana back. Right now they get 200 mana back if they are down 1000 and get healed for 2000. Just give them the mana based on how much they are healed like the talent says. They were down 1000 life they got 1000 life they get 100 mana. It shouldn't be that hard to code.

[Taelas]

The point being is this, you can find better non-set items than going with the sets. This hasn't changed in anyway and has pretty much always been this way. The difference between now and then is back then the set bonuses could overrule some of the advantages of not going with the set. Case in point is the Nemisis 8 piece bonus, the 5 piece Doomcaller bonus, and the 2 piece and 6 piece Plagueheart bonuses. Now the set bonuses just do not make up the difference between trying to put the set together versus just going with best of drops.

Some of us don't even have the off-set items.

[MongoJerry]

Breaking news! (I think)

Patch 2.1 will introduce guild banks and in-game voice chat!

(Now, discuss)

[Flymo]

These are changes planned for after 2.1

[oldmandennis]

The only reason I think after might mean 2.3 or 2.4 as opposed to 3.0 is that the UI people seem to deliver way more consistently then the content or balance types.

[Alrin]

Granted, I've only seen Gruul's Lair, but Olm can be silenced with silencing shot. Particulary useful when rogues are saving their stuns for regular heals, and I need to stop the Prayer of Healing he does.

Abyssal Infernals in Magtheridons lair are susceptible to Scattershot afaik.

[Frag]

FWIW, every single non-boss pull we attempted in Black Temple had cc'able mobs.

YMMV,
~Frag B)

[VinnieJones]

Bank = neat. In game chat = not so much. Doesn't matter what game it has been so far, every game I've played so far that has in game voip gets ignored because the quality is usually poor and it's more convenient to run vent/ts. *shrug* still, it would be nice not to have so many mules.

[Zarathustra]

I can't wait for the guild bank, especially if there's a record kept of all activity.

That means I can finally unload the _____ protection mule I've got stocked up for the guild, in case someone needs a piece here or there.

[q4m]

VOIP - Great in concept. We'll see how it turns out:)

Guild banks - Heck yes, about time. What I'm already thinking though is instead of simply having mules now, we can all have mules that are a member of their own private guild. Maybe a way to save on bag/bank slots. Again, we'll see but I'm sure Blizz thought of that already.

[Pesmerga]

Abyssal Infernals in Magtheridons lair are susceptible to Scattershot afaik.

They most certainly are.

Also, it looked as though all the mobs leading to Madtheridon were affected by Scatter Shot. It certainly looked as if I could stop a Shadow Bolt Volley from casting but hitting the mobs with Scatter. This happened 4-5 times, without a rogue on my target. Then again, it could have been something else.

Anyone have any insight on this?