2.1.0 Patch Notes

[Lissa]

Ok, all great, all knowing of hunters god Lissa, you have me convinced that I don't know anything at all about hunters. So, tell me what I'm doing wrong.

On a good night/fight, I consider it well done if I am able to maintain 750-800dps (with pet). That generally means I've been buffing well and am well potted, too. So, what can I bring to a raid that'll boost my teammates by 300-400dps so you, as RL, will feel I'm worth my spot. Hell, if I could boost folks by 300-400dps, I'd feel I was contributing too, though I'd not call myself a "dps class" but a support class.

Here's me in the Armory, in my usual Instance/Raid set: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#charact...rmrage&n=Mirajj

Here's a special tag with my spiffy stats: http://wow.tachyonsix.com.nyud.net:8080/ar.../53626HFsEm.png
So please tell me and guide me. What am I missing here? What could I change so that you, as RL, would view my 750 or so dps as valuable to the raid? What would, other than MD, make you want to bring me over a class (any of them) that can do 1300 dps without too much trouble? I really am truely curious.

I do admit that I'm also curious why you have no problem with turning a class that was once a dps class into a support class. Which is another problem hunters feel. If we can't do dps to keep up, why can't we help more and be called a 'support' class?

Because every last class in the raiding group is supporting each other Mirajj! Do I have to beat you over the head with a baseball bat to get you to understand this?! In tBC it's not about the damage that you do, it is about the damage the TEAM does. Hunters have ways to synergize and boost the raid's DPS, if you are willing to make those changes to benefit the TEAM instead of yourself, then you'd be welcomed and a lot of hunters are hung up on this very aspect. The whole point of tBC raiding has changed drastically from what it was prior to tBC.

As to your character, you need to look at getting some better gear. I realize that not everything is going to drop, but there are alternatives like getting BoE craftables and the like. You also are not taking advantage of all the gems you have available to you as you stick to Shifting mostly and have very little of other gem types, like Delicate, Bright, Lustrous, Smooth, Glinting, and Dazzling. On Monday when I get back to work, I'll be able to look at the spreadsheet I did up for Lissanna given access to level 70 gear. A couple pieces there are from SSC and The Eye which we're not near yet, but most of the items are from Kara, Gruul, Mags, and 5 mans.

[Mirajj]

Because every last class in the raiding group is supporting each other Mirajj! Do I have to beat you over the head with a baseball bat to get you to understand this?! In tBC it's not about the damage that you do, it is about the damage the TEAM does. Hunters have ways to synergize and boost the raid's DPS, if you are willing to make those changes to benefit the TEAM instead of yourself, then you'd be welcomed and a lot of hunters are hung up on this very aspect. The whole point of tBC raiding has changed drastically from what it was prior to tBC.

And I am asking you...in what ways can an hunter synergize with the raid to help them out? I see three options. FI, TSA or EW (I don't include MD, because every hunter should have it, it being a trainable skill and all). Of those, probably EW is the 'best', but they are all pretty similiar in support provided to the raid. That's not a lot of raid buffing synergy there. Two of them are party based. One of them benefits any type of party the hunter is in (FI) but is a proc, while the other depends on having a party with physical dps (TSA) but is a constant. EW benefits all attackers, providing it can be kept up (not that hard, but is proc based) but comes from the lowest outputting hunter spec of the three.

Look! I understand a hunter's synergy! The question I'm putting to you is WHY BOTHER BRINGING A HUNTER aside from MD? Any of the synergy buffs we do are outdone by having a different dps class (and one with more synergy) around. For instance, while the rogue doesn't bring a lot of synergy to a raid, s/he benefits greatly from the buffs going around to do insane damage, thus they are desired. There are very few buffs a hunter benefits from, so what we have is what we bring. What we bring to the table is low dps and marginal synergy at best. Bringing a hunter tends to hurt the TEAM more then benefit them, if other options are available. A hunter is a nice fill in if someone's sick that night. A hunter is not a 'desired' class to have (and please, please, please don't give us tranq shot gimmick fights back to fix it).

[Treesh]

Look! I understand a hunter's synergy! The question I'm putting to you is WHY BOTHER BRINGING A HUNTER aside from MD? Any of the synergy buffs we do are outdone by having a different dps class (and one with more synergy) around. For instance, while the rogue doesn't bring a lot of synergy to a raid, s/he benefits greatly from the buffs going around to do insane damage, thus they are desired. There are very few buffs a hunter benefits from, so what we have is what we bring. What we bring to the table is low dps and marginal synergy at best. Bringing a hunter tends to hurt the TEAM more then benefit them, if other options are available. A hunter is a nice fill in if someone's sick that night. A hunter is not a 'desired' class to have (and please, please, please don't give us tranq shot gimmick fights back to fix it).

This isn't a boost to the raid DPS, but your traps. Now, I don't know about the "real" end-game as some folks have put it, but you can CC beasts, humanoids, undead, and those non-categorized mobs too. Priests have humanoids and undead, mages have beasts and humanoids, hunters can fill help with any of the above. It certainly helps on Moroes and trash in Karazhan. Haven't seen many strats for the big-kid raids so that may be not there in those. But why bring another mage if what you are mostly dealing with is undead? Why bring another priest solely for a mindcontrol or a shackle if you've already got the healing covered? You bring a hunter, you've got the extra CC covered for various pulls throughout the instance, not just stacking the group for a specific fight. What the smaller raids really benefit from is flexibility in roles. Hey, we want four tanks on this one small section. Make some of the hybrids help. Hey, we need to be able to CC humanoids for this pull, but we need undead CC for that pull and we need some beast CC for this pull. Bring a hunter with his traps so he can take care of extra humans on the first, the extra undead on the second and extra demons on the third instead of swapping around a mage for this pull, a priest/pally for that pull and a warlock for the last pull. Hunters - the one stop CC place.;)

What pet do you bring with you to raids? A wolf can help boost group DPS a little.. Have an owl or bat? That can help mitigate incoming damage. Ferocious inspiration (which you mentioned) is an awesome boost for the group, casters included since it helps spell damage too. I don't remember if it helps healing or not. Some specs are more raid friendly than others are though. Marksmanship isn't the raid friendly spec so you have to expect to contribute less to boosting raid DPS. But hunters aren't all about just DPS. Pet OTs ftw and CC ftw! ;)

Edit: You've also got your stings to help drain mana, help those hardhitting bosses miss more frequently. There's quite a bit that hunters bring to raids in addition to their DPS and their pet's DPS.

[Mirajj]

Hunters - the one stop CC place.;)

From what I've heard (I've not experienced this stuff myself yet) but just about everything beyond Kara (like SSC or The Eye) is trap immune. >.<

What pet do you bring with you to raids?

I usually have a Ravager for Gore, and emergency offtanking if needed. Though in a raid (10+) I've never had to have my pet OT something. We've always had enough tanky types around.

[Quark]

As Quark said, any class can top the meters, it depends on if you are willing to make the effort to get there or not. There are tools out there that can help a Hunter do more DPS and still have longevity the question is, are you willing to give up some of your AP and/or Crit to do it?

Don't twist my meaning. I said if you stack the raid for the hunter. That means you're not stacking the raid for superior classes. Grace of Air totem? Just means another warrior is missing Windfury. Shadow priest? The mana regen serves warlocks and mages better. When you stack the raid for the hunters to lead DPS, you're sacrificing overall DPS.

Also, while I only skim the EJ Hunter threads, pretty much everyone I've seen doing the theorycrafting (mainly Lactose) states that AP/crit will always beat out intel/mp5. They do not offset the mana issues enough for the lost damage to be worth it.

You do realize that this is the case for pretty much all classes? For most classes the Tier 4 and 5 sets suck. So this is nothing new that Hunters would see that their Tier 4 and 5 sets suck as well.

Everyone complains about Tier4/Tier5. Most people are wrong. Is it enough of an upgrade (I'm talking pure item level)? No. Did they mess up some ilvl conversions? Yes. But wait for 2.1 to see if that's still the case. Are the stats distributed properly? Excluding minor examples, yes.

Stop comparing it to Tailoring. Tailoring was the dumbest move Blizzard could have made -> they made "perfectly" distributed gear, and then use school specific (cheaper) instead of +all spell damage. If you have any "perfect" gear in the game, it forces all later gear to be perfect in order to have progression. All gear being perfect would be boring as hell, with no chance for deviation.

Hunters are the exception, because Blizzard is trying to fix a class flaw - longevity - with itemization. You can't do that. When you try, that's when you get dodge on Rogue gear.

No Mirajj, it's not "your" DPS, it's the "team's" DPS that is important. There's a big difference there. If the team is to succeed the DPS of the team needs to be maximized, this does not mean that every single DPSer has to be doing maximum DPS, but they do have to bring something to boost the DPS of the other team members. BM and Surivival do this, MM really doesn't.

We argued about this when 2.0 was first announced. You claimed Survival would come out on top because of Expose Weakness. I said no way, the lost DPS wouldn't make up for it. All the Hunters did their testing, and ended up choosing between BM and MM, completely abandoning Survival. So now I'm more behind on Hunters, but show me why the new Expose Weakness makes up for the DPS loss.

Show me how raid DPS goes up with a Survival hunter instead of a Marksman or BM.

[Lissa]

And I am asking you...in what ways can an hunter synergize with the raid to help them out? I see three options. FI, TSA or EW (I don't include MD, because every hunter should have it, it being a trainable skill and all). Of those, probably EW is the 'best', but they are all pretty similiar in support provided to the raid. That's not a lot of raid buffing synergy there. Two of them are party based. One of them benefits any type of party the hunter is in (FI) but is a proc, while the other depends on having a party with physical dps (TSA) but is a constant. EW benefits all attackers, providing it can be kept up (not that hard, but is proc based) but comes from the lowest outputting hunter spec of the three.

Look! I understand a hunter's synergy! The question I'm putting to you is WHY BOTHER BRINGING A HUNTER aside from MD? Any of the synergy buffs we do are outdone by having a different dps class (and one with more synergy) around. For instance, while the rogue doesn't bring a lot of synergy to a raid, s/he benefits greatly from the buffs going around to do insane damage, thus they are desired. There are very few buffs a hunter benefits from, so what we have is what we bring. What we bring to the table is low dps and marginal synergy at best. Bringing a hunter tends to hurt the TEAM more then benefit them, if other options are available. A hunter is a nice fill in if someone's sick that night. A hunter is not a 'desired' class to have (and please, please, please don't give us tranq shot gimmick fights back to fix it).

Treesh covered some of this, but let me go into one sting now that ends up being very useful.

Remember for a long time everyone said serpent sting was useless? Well, it there are mutilate rogues in the raid, they may want you to put up serpent sting. Combine the effect of Scorpid sting (5% hit reduction) with Shadow Embrace debuff from a Warlock (5% less damage) along with Thunder Clap (Increasing time between attacks by 10%) and Demoralizing Shout (lowers AP by 300), it all adds up to help the tank survive. Then for those bosses that have 1k to 2k mana and still use that mana for something things you can Viper sting, given though those bosses are few and far between, but it is a niche use and either Serpent or Scorpid would be of better value in most cases.

You mentioned traps, but are you referring to mobs that are immune to Frost and Ice or are they immune even to Immolation, Explosive, and the damage from the snakes in Snake Trap? You could add a little extra damage initially if the mob can be pulled over one of these traps as it's incoming to the tank.

You are also the only class that clear 100% of your aggro with a short cooldown ability, all other classes with threat reduction have abilities that are on 5 minute timers, some of which can be resisted just like Feign Death.

As Treesh also mentioned, you're neglecting what your pet can bring to the table. Dragonhawks and Wind Serpents bring DD breaths, Wolves bring party buffs, Owls bring reduction debuffs, and you have Snakes that can bring a poison assisting those Mutilate Rogues even further. Your pet is an extension of your DPS and with the buffs they are giving to pets, this lends even more use to having them out in raids.

[Lissa]

Don't twist my meaning. I said if you stack the raid for the hunter. That means you're not stacking the raid for superior classes. Grace of Air totem? Just means another warrior is missing Windfury. Shadow priest? The mana regen serves warlocks and mages better. When you stack the raid for the hunters to lead DPS, you're sacrificing overall DPS.

Also, while I only skim the EJ Hunter threads, pretty much everyone I've seen doing the theorycrafting (mainly Lactose) states that AP/crit will always beat out intel/mp5. They do not offset the mana issues enough for the lost damage to be worth it.

Quark, when I get back to work tomorrow I'll sit down and list out some of the items I found. Yes, some are from SSC and The Eye, but most are not. If a Hunter is willing to look at what gems they have available and maximize their gem use to increase their longevity along with getting certain enchants (mainly mana prime for chest), they can increase their longevity as well with only sacrificing a small amount of crit and AP.

Everyone complains about Tier4/Tier5. Most people are wrong. Is it enough of an upgrade (I'm talking pure item level)? No. Did they mess up some ilvl conversions? Yes. But wait for 2.1 to see if that's still the case. Are the stats distributed properly? Excluding minor examples, yes.

Stop comparing it to Tailoring. Tailoring was the dumbest move Blizzard could have made -> they made "perfectly" distributed gear, and then use school specific (cheaper) instead of +all spell damage. If you have any "perfect" gear in the game, it forces all later gear to be perfect in order to have progression. All gear being perfect would be boring as hell, with no chance for deviation.

Quark, I'm not just comparing the items to tailoring, I'm also comparing them to random drops that you can get from various bosses. Handwraps of Flowing Thought and Soul-Eater's Handwraps > Tier 4 and Tier 5 Gloves for most Cloth DPS classes. This extends to other slots for Head, Chest, Pants, and Shoulders. The set bonuses do not make up for the disparity on this either. And before you say, you're not looking at 2.1 stats, I am Quark. I'm very much paying attention to all the information coming off the PTR and is being put out there for people to see and the fact of the matter is this, the sets are not worth it most of the time, even when considering the bonuses you can get.

Hunters are the exception, because Blizzard is trying to fix a class flaw - longevity - with itemization. You can't do that. When you try, that's when you get dodge on Rogue gear.
We argued about this when 2.0 was first announced. You claimed Survival would come out on top because of Expose Weakness. I said no way, the lost DPS wouldn't make up for it. All the Hunters did their testing, and ended up choosing between BM and MM, completely abandoning Survival. So now I'm more behind on Hunters, but show me why the new Expose Weakness makes up for the DPS loss.

Show me how raid DPS goes up with a Survival hunter instead of a Marksman or BM.

Let me ask you this Quark, how closely have you looked at the differences between a BM, Marksman, and Survival Hunter? Do you realize that most Survival Hunters take the most damage producing talents in the first 4 Tiers of Marksman? Do you also realize that if you stacked up a Survival Hunter next to a BM or Marksman Hunter that, while they will have anywhere from 200 to 400 less AP, they will instead have on the order of 10%+ more crit? Do you also realize that Mortal Shots, if you go 5/5, means that every 1% crit is equal to 1.3 times more damage? This means a Survival Hunter is going to have more damage through crits meaning that even with that 200 to 400 less AP they're going to be close, not surpass Marksman, but close to them in DPS.

Like I mentioned above, I have sat down and looked at gear pretty extensively and a Survival Hunter can get to around 730 unbuffed Agi, throw in things like pots, BoKings, G/MotW, Agi scrolls, and food and you now have a hunter pushing close to, if not going past, 900 Agi giving all physical damage dealers around 225 AP because the change in 2.1 will mean that EW will be on the target near 100% of the time (since 3/3 EW means a crit puts the debuff on the target and a survival Hunter will be pushing 33%+ crit after buffs).

[Mirajj]

Remember for a long time everyone said serpent sting was useless? Well, it there are mutilate rogues in the raid, they may want you to put up serpent sting.

Serpent isn't "useless" per se, it's horribly mana inefficient. For a class that's already having major mana issues, the mana can be much better spent than maybe helping a mutilate rogue IF one's around.

Combine the effect of Scorpid sting (5% hit reduction) with Shadow Embrace debuff from a Warlock (5% less damage) along with Thunder Clap (Increasing time between attacks by 10%) and Demoralizing Shout (lowers AP by 300), it all adds up to help the tank survive.

If I'm around, a boss the raid is facing will have Scorpid on it. I'm a bit torn though, as I often ask if a tank noticed any difference with the Sting up or not, and the answer is always "not really". If the effect is not noticably helping tanks survive...I could convert that 273mana/20sec into more damage. Again with the mana starvation.

Then for those bosses that have 1k to 2k mana and still use that mana for something things you can Viper sting, given though those bosses are few and far between, but it is a niche use and either Serpent or Scorpid would be of better value in most cases.

Um...I can't think of any bosses like this. But if it's a boss, it's likely better off with Scorpid.

You mentioned traps, but are you referring to mobs that are immune to Frost and Ice or are they immune even to Immolation, Explosive, and the damage from the snakes in Snake Trap? You could add a little extra damage initially if the mob can be pulled over one of these traps as it's incoming to the tank.

From what I've read on EJ forums, there is a single type of mob in SSC that is Frost Trappable, and it can be sheeped (a superior form of CC if it's an option). As to the other forms of trap, let's look at them. We'll ignore the issue of aggro before the tank due to a trap, providing we can get it in front of the tank and have the raid wait while we set up the traps. (Max trap ranks/no immunities/resists assumed here)

-Immolation Trap = 305 mana turns into 985 damage over 15seconds.
-Explosive Trap = 650 mana for 272 to 345dd and 450 damage over 20secs (if the mob remains with 10yards of the trap)
-Snake Trap = 305 mana for 15 seconds of "interesting" effects and damage. You can't be sure of what kind of damage this is going to do as it depends on how many snakes, and what they are targetting/doing. It has proven useful to providing multiple targets for NPCS's as well as the Mind Numbing it often procs. However, the change in 2.1.0 means it will only be useful for the Mind Numbing aspect.

Not that exciting after all, is it? For comparison: Arcane Shot = 207 mana for 616 mana, instant. (my arcane shot, depending on what I'm shooting at does between 500-650 dmg). Another point of comparison...Serpent Sting = 247 mana for 660 damage over 15 seconds. Serpent is the best known anything for mana inefficiency, and traps aren't too far in front of it. Which is why you don't see much/any use out of the none Ice ones, which do return decently for their cost.

You are also the only class that clear 100% of your aggro with a short cooldown ability, all other classes with threat reduction have abilities that are on 5 minute timers, some of which can be resisted just like Feign Death.

So? I no longer have to FD. I can't do enough damage to make myself a threat on the threat meter over rogues, mages and warlocks. If someone is pulling aggro in instances these days, it's not a hunter anymore. With tank aggro generation increased, I can pewpew to my hearts content and not have to worry about FD unless I want to do something crazy like FD/Drink or get OOC for a gearswitch.

As Treesh also mentioned, you're neglecting what your pet can bring to the table. Dragonhawks and Wind Serpents bring DD breaths, Wolves bring party buffs, Owls bring reduction debuffs, and you have Snakes that can bring a poison assisting those Mutilate Rogues even further. Your pet is an extension of your DPS and with the buffs they are giving to pets, this lends even more use to having them out in raids.

No, I'm not neglecting it. I choose to use a Ravager at the moment, due to it's DD skill of Gore, while still being a decent tanky sort of pet.

Wolves aren't too bad either, but their buff is so random that's it's not really much of a help and for it to be of any use (to someone other than me) I need to be in a melee group with my pet alive and near the melee. Or it can benefit me, staying by my side.

Owls...I looked Screech up (which is what I presume you are talking about) and the max rank was a pittance of damage, and 210AP stripped off for 4 seconds. That's not much these days. It is still something, I suppose.

Snakes again can help a mutilate rogue IF one is around. But with stable slots at a premium, are you going to keep a maybe pet around in case a mutilate rogue shows up?

Yes pets are a part of a hunters dps (15-40%, depending on who you ask) but even with our pets, hunters are having a deuce of a time.

[Mirajj]

Let me ask you this Quark, how closely have you looked at the differences between a BM, Marksman, and Survival Hunter? Do you realize that most Survival Hunters take the most damage producing talents in the first 4 Tiers of Marksman? Do you also realize that if you stacked up a Survival Hunter next to a BM or Marksman Hunter that, while they will have anywhere from 200 to 400 less AP, they will instead have on the order of 10%+ more crit? Do you also realize that Mortal Shots, if you go 5/5, means that every 1% crit is equal to 1.3 times more damage? This means a Survival Hunter is going to have more damage through crits meaning that even with that 200 to 400 less AP they're going to be close, not surpass Marksman, but close to them in DPS.

And let me tell you this. That despite all three trees of the hunter being close in damage (All three should be able to do around 650-800 right now) that it's NOT IMPROVING. So when everyone is in SSC and the other damage classes are much higher, hunters will still be putting out their 650-800dps. The gap right now is, as you yourself pointed out, around 500dps (1300 to 800) So what will happen when that gets worse? You said that you've created a wishlist of gear that would enable you to give around 225AP to the raid, but requires you to have "some" SSC and Eye pieces. By the time a guild is raiding SSC/The Eye, given the differences in dps increases, do you really think that 225AP will get you a raid spot? If the bar for a dps class is set at around 1600, and you can just barely do half of that with every trick at your disposal...why would a raid bring you along? Even if you could give the raid 225AP more?

This is the problem you aren't seeing, Lissa. Right now, as things stand this VERY MOMENT, the math heads have worked it out, (I don't know how you got your numbers and often wonder how you do come up with whatever you end up with) and no matter what else a hunter can do or bring, the ONLY reason they are brought on a raid is Misdirection. A couple of band-aid fixes MAY fix this in the here and now (Kara/Gruul/Mag level) but once things move past that, then what? We are right back to square one.

[Tuftears]

Hold on a bit here, I'm missing something.

GG and Mirajj both have the Steelhawk (2.80 speed). How did GG get his attack speed down to 2.03, while Mirajj is only at 2.43?

*peers* Oh. It's a high BM talent, increases your ranged combat speed by 20% and your pet's melee combat speed by 20%. You should both have a +15% attack speed quiver as well.

2.8 to 2.43: 13% reduction total
2.8 to 2.03: 27% reduction total

Hmmm, the numbers aren't quite matching up. It looks like the speed reductions multiply together (2.8 * 0.85 * 0.8) rather than adding (2.8 * 0.65) but it looks like you're only getting 13% from the quiver, not 15%. What's the deal here?

Either way, that speed increase looks like a huge impact on damage.

[Quark]

If a Hunter is willing to look at what gems they have available and maximize their gem use to increase their longevity along with getting certain enchants (mainly mana prime for chest), they can increase their longevity as well with only sacrificing a small amount of crit and AP.

If you're using gems for mana, you're not using them for ap/crit/agi.

Quark, I'm not just comparing the items to tailoring, I'm also comparing them to random drops that you can get from various bosses. Handwraps of Flowing Thought and Soul-Eater's Handwraps > Tier 4 and Tier 5 Gloves for most Cloth DPS classes. This extends to other slots for Head, Chest, Pants, and Shoulders. The set bonuses do not make up for the disparity on this either. And before you say, you're not looking at 2.1 stats, I am Quark. I'm very much paying attention to all the information coming off the PTR and is being put out there for people to see and the fact of the matter is this, the sets are not worth it most of the time, even when considering the bonuses you can get.

The changes are not all in yet! Stop doing that! You're comparing underbudget items to regular items. The only looks you can take right now is saying "how's the distribution?", because the items aren't really changing much in design, just some +s.

Let me ask you this Quark, how closely have you looked at the differences between a BM, Marksman, and Survival Hunter? Do you realize that most Survival Hunters take the most damage producing talents in the first 4 Tiers of Marksman? Do you also realize that if you stacked up a Survival Hunter next to a BM or Marksman Hunter that, while they will have anywhere from 200 to 400 less AP, they will instead have on the order of 10%+ more crit? Do you also realize that Mortal Shots, if you go 5/5, means that every 1% crit is equal to 1.3 times more damage? This means a Survival Hunter is going to have more damage through crits meaning that even with that 200 to 400 less AP they're going to be close, not surpass Marksman, but close to them in DPS.

Snippit::

Class/Tree % Specced % Skipped 31 % Avoided 41
Hunter/Beast Mastery 22.0 2.2 9.8

Hunter/Marksmanship 72.3 0.4 12.2

Hunter/Survival 5.1 30.8 61.5

They're all wrong? Also, where's this +10% crit? I'm seeing 3 from a talent, then a 6% chance of 10% more for a short while. 6% chance isn't exactly high.

For all that equalization the Survival Hunter tried to get, he skipped all the utility talents. Meanwhile, Marksman picked up Scatter Shot and Silencing Shot, two amazing skills.

I'm not as down on Hunters as Mirajj. That's understandable -> look at how I felt about Rogues before the 2.1 changes were announced. But they are the lowest DPS class right now, excluding Paladins (who can easily do other things). It's disingenuous to keep arguing about all the little things when right now, the high end guilds are pretty clearly saying "2 Hunters, for Misdirection, not for their damage, no more". It's better than "Rogues for trash, not for bosses" but that's still not a comforting thought.

[Quark]

Serpent isn't "useless" per se, it's horribly mana inefficient. For a class that's already having major mana issues, the mana can be much better spent than maybe helping a mutilate rogue IF one's around.

Let's kill this thread right now. Right now it's an issue because Rogue poisons have charges. If theres 5 small trash pulls left and then a boss, I'm not throwing up a new poison, because I'll have to do it again for the boss. I'm not throwing up poisons when half the mobs are immune because I'll waste my charges for nothing.

This is all gone in 2.1. And it only ever mattered for long lines of poison-immune trash or short lines of trash right before a boss.

[Kevin]

Snippit::

I'm mostly staying out of this thread, but this does point out something else that is wrong with the hunter. No other class has so many people focusing on just one tree. This has always been a problem for hunters. It means that 2 of the trees are just completely out of whack for many aspects of the game because people don't want it for solo, small group, raids, or PvP if 72% of the players are speccing for just 1 tree. I think there were even more marks spec hunters before TBC than there are now as well. And I have fully agreed that the 3 hunters trees have not been created equal for quite some time. Pre TBC, a beast hunter + pet could in fact out damage a marks or survival hunter + pet in MC until the hunters got about 3 or 4 pieces of the T1 set. At that point beast didn't have a chance because the pet was static damage, it wasn't going to get better for the beast hunter. A lot of people didn't realize this because there are a lot of hunters that don't play hunters, they play archers. They either can't or won't use the pet. Some of the pet stuff is because at times pets could be a liability for the raid because of the way mob abilities worked. I had to fight several members of our sister guild about pet usage in MC, BWL, ZG, and AQ20 because they believe things that were just flat our wrong, some of it information that was still being posted a lot on forums like Elitist Jerks as well because there are Archers on that forum as well. But even I, a die hard beastmaster swapped to Marks for a bit and the survival for raiding (survival and marks were equal on raid damage with the gearing that was available but I was still doing PvP and I felt survival was better for that, and I've always felt that marks brought the least utility to a 5 man of the 3 specs).


I'm also not sure the hunter class problems are as fundamentally bad as others do. I did break down and grab BigTrouble (I still don't like zHunter that so many others swear by) because it is true that you simply can't maximize hunter DPS without an autoshot cast bar and I always did my timing just by sound and feel before and I know I did it well as I topped the damage meters (not just for hunters but for all classes) in MC, BWL, ZG, and AQ20. I'm not sure we are more lag/latency sensative than other classes, or even more demanding on timing. Warlocks not watching the timing on DoTs and shadowbolts take just as much attention to maximize as a hunter for me. Pre TBC, what had hunters falling back in Naxx was that hunter gear wasn't itemized as well as it was for other classes (coupled with pets being even harder to use due to encounter design) and the situation with gearing being able to effectively scale for hunters and actually provide options in gearing (i.e. wanting to choose something other than a ton of agi) was part of the reason for the class redesign. Putting more value on the weapon damage, less on the weapon speed, less on agi, more on AP and crit rating. I'm still only in the Kara and Gruul levels of raiding, and the gearing while not as good as it should be for hunters still let's hunters top the damage charts in those instances. Looking at the way itemization for hunters continues I still worry about that and can still believe that is part of the problem, even a major part of the problem.


As for the mana usage. I play horde. I had to use demonic runes or mana pots to maximize damage as soon as I started to raid. I realize alliance didn't have to do this because Blessing of Wisdom and judgement of wisdom returned that much mana to the hunters. Even though I knew the theorycrafting of the power of those, the times I run with pallies I still get surprised at how much longer my mana pool lasts. Knowing that a pally should be around for hunter longevity for raid content encounters starting taking this into account. Given all that, the Curator is the first fight in Kara where I will ask for BoW over BoM on the hunter and that would still depend on the group composition I'm with as I still should be able to get through that one. Kara is not end game though. I don't follow other classes as much, but I kind of assumed that all mana using classes were slamming mana pots if they wanted to maximize. I know that when I read about warlocks, if you want to max damage and you aren't threat limited chugging mana pots is better than tapping and draining (or taking healer mana after a tap). Mages had to drink mana pots pre TBC to stay at the top of the meters. If they aren't still doing this all the time now because they either have other methods or are still having to hold back enough from threat limits so that the mana lasts longer then hunters should get more help than I am currently thinking on this.

I also agree that Marks hunters and even survival hunters could use something else for a synergy tool. Beast hunters provide 3% more damage for everyone in their group and that uptime varies from 25-80%. I know that if the DPS get to set up groups most of them want me pretty early in the line of choices. So this skews my personal views a bit. You can put a beast anywhere (but the healer group) and they help and will likely get something back. Battle shout doesn't help RAP (I've debated on how changing that, like they did with BoM would work, the issue is I think it could be too strong for non end game content) but it's significant for the pet which when I read what the BM hunters in SSC and The Eye say are still usable even though there is still a lot of "Archer" bias against them and they will become more usable. Of course BS like trueshot are both static boosts and become less and less valuable the deeper into content you get. If you are in a melee group it also means you are likely in with a shaman getting SoE for the pet as well. But again this all helps a beast more than marks or survival. Changing the enh shaman unleashed rage buff to affect RAP is another option for helping the hunter who is still bringing something to that group.

I agree that Survival hunters only bring a buff for the whole raid and nothing for the group and they aren't as much DPS as a rogue so why buff them? I do agree that is an issue. I also agree that trueshot is underpowered. Just based on the name of it, I would be happy with it giving the fixed AP and then adding some hit rating trueshot feels more like it should help you hit anyway. This makes it much harder on those specs. A class as opposed to talent synergy effect might not be out of line, but each tree could also have a talent synergy that helps the group. The other option is to up DPS so much that hunters are ranged rogues and are worth being the class that is getting all the buffs (at least I still don't know of any rogue synergy that only helps the group and not everyone attacking that mob). My preference is that when something happens on this that it's the hunter providing more buffs to the group simply because I do agree that a hunter isn't as easy to fit in, unless they are beast.

Hunters gear around the level of mob they are facing (other classes do to an extent as well but I don't think they do it as much). I change gear in instances on a pull by pull basis as I can reach a +hit cap. If the mob is L70 I get to the hit cap then put the rest in AP/crit. If the mobs are L71 I get to that hit cap for that, etc. This is why looking at my armory profile doesn't really help as pretty much every slot has 1 or 2 other items I can put in there to modify hit/AP/crit/stam levels (stam is more for what I'm using the pet for, or if I'm trapping on heroics). I do have a gear set that gets me to 136 hit rating but I rarely log out in that as I rarely log out after facing an L73 (or skull con) mob. My spec is certainly not a raid spec either. I'm set up so that I can pretty easily pet tank a normal five me if we don't have a druid/warrior/pally around and so that I can do CC better in Kara and heroics, the content I'm running the most. I could get more damage in several places and despite this I can still get to #1 or #2 in heroics and Kara on the damage meters. But as I've said several times, in this thread and others; Hunter gearing still has me worried, it failed hunters pre-TBC and it looks like it will fail them again after the first raiding tier is done. Small things like changing from AP to RAP on the hunter sets would help a lot. Hunters don't really need melee AP for anything but PvP where there are simply times that you can not get at range and doing melee damage over no damage is good and sometimes the best choice. But the PvP gear can keep the straight AP boosts.


So I agree and I have for awhile that the hunter trees are not done right. I prefer for a primarily DPS/support class that all 3 trees can work equally well in all phases of the game (raids, 5 mans, heroics, PvP, soloing) and the personal preference dictates the choice. I can live with something like the rogues have where it seems to me that one tree is better for PvP, one is better for raids, and one is better for small group content. Hunters don't have either of those right now. I do agree that trees, especially survival need work. But what I don't necessarily agree on is what those changes should focus on.

As I mentioned since some of the problems are synergy problems, changing the buffs that other classes can provide to the hunter as well as changing the buffs that hunters can bring to others along with fixing the itemization (and I'm not sure that the problem with it is because hunters are more mana starved than any other class mana using class or that it's always better to go for AP/crit over regen or mana) might be all that is needed.

I do not think the hunter is fundamentally broken. I think that the survival tree still needs work (but so do trees for other classes). I think that traps still need work, and I do agree that they were pretty much worthless pre TBC, it's not something I spoke up about much but other than for CC with freezing trap, or for PvP there wasn't much use for them. Fixing that and adding more complexity to the class is fine by me and they took some steps towards that. Assuming the pet changes make the pets as usable and as much of a boost as I feel they will, I still think a Marks and survival hunter need to bring more to the group they are put in. Hunters always should have been a DPS/support class as opposed to a pure DPS class in my mind and from the on paper design so actually getting them to work that way doesn't bother me. I do understand that since they use to play as mostly a DPS class how that could bother some hunters. It bothered me that I wasn't as much of a support class as I felt hunters should be before and that I lost more and more support ability (things like off tanking, viable CC, AoE support, etc) as I progressed in end game content. TBC restored some of this. I'm better CC than I used to be. I can still offtank in Kara and heroics as a beast spec, I still provide group buffs. But this is not true for all trees. So they need to add more support. They could even up marks damage more and take away more of the support roles as long as they allow the support roles of beast and survival to still work in raids, because I'm not a fan of "spec marks for raids or don't raid".


The class has issues, but I don't think they are class breaking. I can write just as much about the issues with druids, warriors, priests, paladins, and shaman for example as I did for hunters as well. That doesn't mean they are broken. This game has always been a work in progress. What I've seen them changing for hunters, with the big exception being the gearing, is still good enough for me. I think they have a handle on all of it but the gearing so I'm not worried. I'm getting some pretty significant buffs in the next patch, I'm not used to hunters getting buffed at all since I don't think they've generally ever needed it. So I'm still very happy.

[Frag]

I'm really fighting the urge to /reply to GG, as it would make me giggle.

~Frag :D

P.S. /salute GG's <span style="color:#000000">WALL OF TEXT

[Lissa]

If you're using gems for mana, you're not using them for ap/crit/agi.

There are other ways to get AP and Crit Quark...it's called Agi...every 2.75 Agi is 1 crit rating, every 1 Agi is 1 AP. This leaves you the opportunity to put in MP5 in a couple slots to help out.

The changes are not all in yet! Stop doing that! You're comparing underbudget items to regular items. The only looks you can take right now is saying "how's the distribution?", because the items aren't really changing much in design, just some +s.

Quark, the Tier 5 changes are in and they still do not equal out to non-set items. Compare Robe of Hateful Echoes from Hydross to the Tier 5 cloth DPS robes that drop from Kael (both revised). Please tell me again Quark that the Tier sets are better than random drops, even with the bonuses, cause they're not. I'm not comparing apples to oranges here Quark, I'm comparing apples to apples, the sets do not compare to the random items you can get from Bosses. The tier sets, for the most part, are junk.

Snippit::
They're all wrong? Also, where's this +10% crit? I'm seeing 3 from a talent, then a 6% chance of 10% more for a short while. 6% chance isn't exactly high.

You see that little mention up above there Quark about Agi? Survival Hunters are usually pushing 700+ unbuffed Agi while BM and Marksman are roaming around 400 to 450 because they go for AP and Crit. 275 Agi on a Survival Hunter over the Agi on a BM or Marksman Hunter is 10% crit. That's how Survival Hunters are getting such huge crits compared to BM and Marksman Hunters, they're using Red Gems for Agi and Yellow Gems for Crit while BM and Marksman are mostly using Red Gems for AP and Yellow Gems for Crit.

For all that equalization the Survival Hunter tried to get, he skipped all the utility talents. Meanwhile, Marksman picked up Scatter Shot and Silencing Shot, two amazing skills.

In PvP yes Quark, in Raid encounters past Karazhan, most mobs, trash and bosses, are immune to silence and immune to disorient which means both Scatter and Silencing are wasted talent points from a raiding perspective.

Likewise, the Survival Hunter usually gets the utility talents in their traps. Something a lot of people over look especially when there is a talent that causes traps to root.

I'm not as down on Hunters as Mirajj. That's understandable -> look at how I felt about Rogues before the 2.1 changes were announced. But they are the lowest DPS class right now, excluding Paladins (who can easily do other things). It's disingenuous to keep arguing about all the little things when right now, the high end guilds are pretty clearly saying "2 Hunters, for Misdirection, not for their damage, no more". It's better than "Rogues for trash, not for bosses" but that's still not a comforting thought.

How come then there is a slowing growing group of Hunters that are changing the way they play and are also changing some of these perceptions? The voices are out there, they're not very vocal cause they're being drown out by the various cries of injustice and the like, but some people are starting to listen, are starting to realize that there are other ways of doing things.

Do I think that some of the things done to Hunters in 2.1 are a step in the right direction, yes. Do I think that the list of things Mirajj posted early on are necessary to help the Hunter, no, I do not. In my mind, Hunters are not broken as many Hunters think they are. Blizzard is moving to rectify some of it, but they haven't gotten there yet, but out and out doing that things that Mirajj suggested (or where ever he pulled those suggestions from) would simply throw off the balance to the other side and make them too powerful. Baby steps to that point are better than outright jumps and then nerfing back down to be in line.

[Taelas]

There are other ways to get AP and Crit Quark...it's called Agi...every 2.75 Agi is 1 crit rating, every 1 Agi is 1 AP. This leaves you the opportunity to put in MP5 in a couple slots to help out.

All other things being equal, if you're spending gems on MP5, you're not spending them on agi/AP/crit.

Quark, the Tier 5 changes are in and they still do not equal out to non-set items. Compare Robe of Hateful Echoes from Hydross to the Tier 5 cloth DPS robes that drop from Kael (both revised). Please tell me again Quark that the Tier sets are better than random drops, even with the bonuses, cause they're not. I'm not comparing apples to oranges here Quark, I'm comparing apples to apples, the sets do not compare to the random items you can get from Bosses. The tier sets, for the most part, are junk.

I'm sorry, what?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you want from a set is agility, attack power, crit, intellect, MP5, stamina, and +hit (and mostly in that order--at least as soon as you have a moderate amount of +hit already). Now, I'm no expert, but Rift Stalker seems to have all of that. That's not mentioning the three yellow sockets and the three red sockets, the meta socket and the blue socket. How is that junk? From what I can see, it has basically no wasted stats at all. Compare that to the live version of Nordrassil Harness or Malorne Harness--littered with almost worthless spirit, crit rating (which is crap for a Feral druid), too much int, and barely any increased armor.

The current Nordrassil Harness is almost perfect. Good armor, nice array of stats, mostly focused on strength and stamina, with plenty of agility and some int thrown in (which is utterly useless to me, as I'll be tanking most of the time, but it's useful for DPS, so whatever). Current Malorne is good, though the gloves are utter crap. No agility, instead crit rating--and they cost the same in terms of item points.

While Demon Stalker and Rift Stalker aren't perfect, they seem like good sets to me. The set bonuses look somewhat useless at first glance, but then, it's the same with mine.

And uh, what's with the name repetition? We can easily see whom you're replying to.

You see that little mention up above there Quark about Agi? Survival Hunters are usually pushing 700+ unbuffed Agi while BM and Marksman are roaming around 400 to 450 because they go for AP and Crit. 275 Agi on a Survival Hunter over the Agi on a BM or Marksman Hunter is 10% crit. That's how Survival Hunters are getting such huge crits compared to BM and Marksman Hunters, they're using Red Gems for Agi and Yellow Gems for Crit while BM and Marksman are mostly using Red Gems for AP and Yellow Gems for Crit.

As far as I know, gear isn't restricted to spec, so what exactly is your point...? A BM or MM hunter could go for agility as well.

In PvP yes Quark, in Raid encounters past Karazhan, most mobs, trash and bosses, are immune to silence and immune to disorient which means both Scatter and Silencing are wasted talent points from a raiding perspective.
Likewise, the Survival Hunter usually gets the utility talents in their traps. Something a lot of people over look especially when there is a talent that causes traps to root.

Bosses are immune. I doubt trash is, though of course I've not set foot in anything beyond Gruul's Lair. (And Maulgar's adds at least are stunnable.)

How come then there is a slowing growing group of Hunters that are changing the way they play and are also changing some of these perceptions? The voices are out there, they're not very vocal cause they're being drown out by the various cries of injustice and the like, but some people are starting to listen, are starting to realize that there are other ways of doing things.

Maybe the voices you're speaking of aren't taking everything into perspective. Sounds like it, from my point of view as an outsider on the class.

Do I think that some of the things done to Hunters in 2.1 are a step in the right direction, yes. Do I think that the list of things Mirajj posted early on are necessary to help the Hunter, no, I do not. In my mind, Hunters are not broken as many Hunters think they are. Blizzard is moving to rectify some of it, but they haven't gotten there yet, but out and out doing that things that Mirajj suggested (or where ever he pulled those suggestions from) would simply throw off the balance to the other side and make them too powerful. Baby steps to that point are better than outright jumps and then nerfing back down to be in line.

"Baby steps", my ass. They're not exactly on Blizzard's track record.

2.0.10: "We've tested things extensively and Druids are dealing too much damage right now" --> net effect: Mangle nerfed hard (went from 156% to 100%). Hotfixed right after the patch for threat issues (which the forums had already told them would happen).
2.1: Mangle damage buffed (to 115%), threat bonus lessened to keep it more or less the same.

Yeah, "baby steps". Sorry, I'm a little bitter.:angry:

[Mavfin]

Yeah, "baby steps". Sorry, I'm a little bitter.:angry:

Oh, get over it. Druids were doing things that everyone knew would get the nerf bat in some way. Elemental shamans are getting it, too, on the crit-clearcast thing, which I *knew* would be eventually nerfed the first time I ran an instance using it. Some things are just simply too much.

I'll just say that I have a lot more respect for the voices that say 'yes, there are new ways to do things', than the voices that scream 'the sky is falling, they nerfed me!' I heard the latter too many times on the warriors, the druids, the shamans, and now the hunters. How are warriors now? Better than in 1.0, for the most part. How are feral druids now? Still better than feral in 1.0. How are elemental shamans? They'll still be better than in 1.0. How are hunters going to be? Better than in 1.0. (Like hunters needed much buffs anyway, as GG said. They're the kings of farm/solo/quest. Only fitting that they can't be the kings of everything, which seems to me to be what some posters want.)

[Taelas]

Oh, get over it. Druids were doing things that everyone knew would get the nerf bat in some way.

I'm not angry about the nerf itself, I'm angry at how it happened. If it was overpowered, why was it allowed in the expansion in the first place? If the nerf was required, why are they now taking some of it back?

[Quark]

Quark, the Tier 5 changes are in and they still do not equal out to non-set items. Compare Robe of Hateful Echoes from Hydross to the Tier 5 cloth DPS robes that drop from Kael (both revised). Please tell me again Quark that the Tier sets are better than random drops, even with the bonuses, cause they're not. I'm not comparing apples to oranges here Quark, I'm comparing apples to apples, the sets do not compare to the random items you can get from Bosses. The tier sets, for the most part, are junk.

They ... are ... not ... done!

Did they change some stuff previously, very early in the patch process? Yes. What did those changes not do? Modify the item level.

On Friday's patch, they changed epics for heroics, reputation, and some crafting. You know what they did? They bumped the item level up. Are you trying to tell me that Blizzard's going to make heroic and rep gear a higher item level than raiding gear? I highly doubt that.

[Lissa]

They ... are ... not ... done!

Did they change some stuff previously, very early in the patch process? Yes. What did those changes not do? Modify the item level.

On Friday's patch, they changed epics for heroics, reputation, and some crafting. You know what they did? They bumped the item level up. Are you trying to tell me that Blizzard's going to make heroic and rep gear a higher item level than raiding gear? I highly doubt that.

No Quark, what I'm telling you is that individual items that drop in the same places as the Tier gear are superior. You can say they're not done till you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is this, every time they've updated the Tiers and items in the same range, the non-set items have always been better. I'm not even talking about Heroic drops here Quark, I'm comparing straight up Raid drop to Raid token drop. Did you totally miss the comparison between Robe of Hateful Echoes (from Hydross) to the Tier 5 Robes (token dropped by Kael)? Robe of Hateful Echoes is superior to the Tier 5 gear and it's easier to acquire. Look at the Ranger-General's Chestguard (from Hydross again) and compare it to the Tier 5 chest for Hunters. Do you see where this is going Quark? Everytime they've updated the gear, the non-Tier items have come out better than the tier items and this will continue Quark. And it's not just one or two pieces that are this way either, it's pretty much every piece of the Tier 5 gear. There are some exceptions here and there, but for the most part, the Tier items are crap and have always been and will always be compared to single pieces as the set bonuses just do not off set the relative power difference.