A terrible, terrible tragedy.

[eppie]

But this is derailing from the topic. Iraq, the US Military, George Bush, Sadam Hussein nor you have anything to do with the tragedy that unfolded in Virginia.

O sorry tal, I'm sorry for caring that 30 people were killed. If you want I can also just pretend to think freedom means being allowed to buy guns but not to buy a beer before you are 21 years old. So I can stop writing in this thread and just pray for God and country.

I'm feeling a world citizen. I don't care if victims are dutch, American, Muslims or jews for me it is just as big a tragedy.

I would be happy to discuss some dutch problems here on the lounge but such thread will die away very quickly. I mean I don't mind that you on average don't have the same interest in other countries affairs then we in yours, but blaming me that I don't have anything do to with it......in other words telling me not to mind this business (if I'm correct and that is what you mean) I find a bit shortsighted and not correct.

[Tal]

O sorry tal, I'm sorry for caring that 30 people were killed. If you want I can also just pretend to think freedom means being allowed to buy guns but not to buy a beer before you are 21 years old. So I can stop writing in this thread and just pray for God and country.

I'm feeling a world citizen. I don't care if victims are dutch, American, Muslims or jews for me it is just as big a tragedy.

I would be happy to discuss some dutch problems here on the lounge but such thread will die away very quickly. I mean I don't mind that you on average don't have the same interest in other countries affairs then we in yours, but blaming me that I don't have anything do to with it......in other words telling me not to mind this business (if I'm correct and that is what you mean) I find a bit shortsighted and not correct.

Hey you wanna talk about gun control thats fine. Make a thread and start your verbal circle jerk there.

[ShadowHM]

Hey you wanna talk about gun control thats fine. Make a thread and start your verbal circle jerk there.

Having attended this dance a few times before, I had intended to sit this one out. ;)

But I just have to say something here.

Rudeness really isn't going to help. No thanks to all that decided to interject that. <_<

And, FWIW, eppie - this is a topic that goes nowhere. It is a deeply embedded American cultural imperative to feel that they must retain the right to own guns. And those Americans that might agree that gun control is a worthy objective will get drowned out in this forum by certain frequent posters. ;)

[ima_nerd]

O sorry tal, I'm sorry for caring that 30 people were killed. If you want I can also just pretend to think freedom means being allowed to buy guns but not to buy a beer before you are 21 years old. So I can stop writing in this thread and just pray for God and country.

Seriously? That makes no sense. This thread is about the VaTech shooting which can be extended to gun control. What does Iraq have to do with either of those? Sure, we could play 6-degrees all day but for keeping it on track, gun control seems to be the end of the line.

[Occhidiangela]

Ok but when we are talking about US troops in Irak killing innocent bystanders, you can pull the one about who scary and bad it is to be 'working' there. So scary that sometimes they lose control and start shooting.
Which one is it going to be?
I do must say I respect that people are going to war for (I wanted to say us but I mean the republicans) but if it is all bravery? I don't think so. If it is in the US like in Holland (professional army) you see that the army unlike 20 years ago now consists of mainly the lower socio economic groups. And that is a sad thing. The people that gain the least from a free country do all the work. There will of course also be a small group of ideological rough good-doers, but I think they are a minority.

You are still about 2000 euros and one leasing agreement short of a clue.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Having attended this dance a few times before, I had intended to sit this one out. ;)

But like most of us, you just could not resist. :lol: You are in good company, Shadow.

"Hi, I am Occhi, and I'm a postaholic." :P

And, FWIW, eppie - this is a topic that goes nowhere. It is a deeply embedded American cultural imperative to feel that they must retain the right to own guns. And those Americans that might agree that gun control is a worthy objective will get drowned out in this forum by certain frequent posters. ;)

We already have gun control, Shadow. There are volumes of laws regulating firearms, and we have a sector of the DOJ called the ATF who enforce those laws at the federal level (with mixed success) as well as local laws and law enforcement.

What is being pursued is gun confiscation. (Or more accurately, certain kind of gun confiscation.) My sister agrees with a hand gun ban. I don't, but I understand where she is coming from.

As to the penchant for some to leap on a particular rhetorical bandwagon over firearms and citizens, I'll ask when the last time was that I posted demanding that Dutch people stop wearing wooden shoes, or keeping windmills turning, or building dikes? When's the last time I criticized Dutchmen for doing something fundamentally Dutch? Is it fundamentally Dutch to piss and moan about Americans? Not among the Dutch I worked with, so it appears that only a rarified strain of Dutchman succumbs to this disease.

Oddly enough, a quid pro quo seems not to hold, so it is an assumed "weapons free" for Eurotrash to wax poetic on perceptions of imperfections in American ____________ (Fill in the blank with whinge du jour. ) You'll excuse me if I don't put up with that crap. Or you won't, your call.

Check the murder stats, month by month, in the Greater Los Angeles Area. By the way, this is only the known and reported murders, from the LAPD.

Year to date, in 2007, there are 102 homicides. In the three week period 3/18 to 4/14 (four weeks) there were 35 homicides.

Let's look in Rampart Division, where a friend of mine works as a cop. 7 in 2005 and 10 in 2006.

Blacksburg/Virginia Tech, is, by and large, not that kind of place. This is a spike, which any statistician will be able to point out to you as an outlier. Let's look at Blacksburg's homicide rate for the past 10 years or so.

Notice anything? Two homicides in the last ten years. So, if one is to analyze this event, one must confine one's self to the influences on the young man at hand, not on some systemic flaw. The fallacious presumption of a systemic flaw based on tools seems to me not just misguided, but negligently so. What is at hand is a behavioral matter. This young man was in a toxic environment, emotionally and mentally, and in his case, he was unprepared or unable to deal with the toxin. More on that as more detail about this sick bastidge comes to light. It may be almost normal behavior to kill one or two people with whom one is angry, but it is a whole different matter to act out on an impulse to "kill them all." (No, Jack Thompson is not right.)

This event is a spike, not a trend. As W. Edwards Deming suggested, chasing spikes is no way to establish a viable error band in a process control. Chasing spikes is a form of tampering that tends to destabalizes and hurt a system, or create new errors and flaws.

Do you, or any other thinker, care to present a way to a priori detect and prevent a murder, let alone a shooting spree? The FBI would love to hear it, and so would INTERPOL, I suspect, and Scotland Yard. The RCMP might just pay you handsomely for it.

Is the way ahead to install a Minority Report style protocol? The first psychic who can actually perform that role needs to do two things.

1. Show up for work.

2. Get to work.

Until then, I am unwilling to curtail an essential freedom for the payoff of the illusion of security.

There is no security.

Occhi

[Ashock]

It is a deeply embedded American cultural imperative to feel that they must retain the right to own guns.

The founding fathers of this country believed that it's citizens should be able to do something if their government fails them, and to never completely rely on the government. This is a concept unlike any other in the whole world, at least among the semi-free nations. This is the reason for guns being important in the US.

Over 200 years later, and their reason is still very valid and their wisdom still holds.

[Occhidiangela]

Having attended this dance a few times before, I had intended to sit this one out. ;)

But I just have to say something here.

Added comment. This article is very interesting, about people running amok.

Occhi

[eppie]

And, FWIW, eppie - this is a topic that goes nowhere. It is a deeply embedded American cultural imperative to feel that they must retain the right to own guns. And those Americans that might agree that gun control is a worthy objective will get drowned out in this forum by certain frequent posters. ;)

And the most stupid thing is that I said so myself in my first post in this thread.....but still I couldn't stop myself from posting more replies.....I should work a bit more instead of hanging around:D.

But I must also say it is the nice discussion that I appreciate. Although everybody else is obviously wrong and I'm right I like the arguments used here.....that is what separate this forum from others. (at least I think because I don't visit other forums that much).

And Ashok: first, I think most americans nowadays are not offspring of the founding fathers, and I don't think the ones that are not came to the US because of the nice gun laws.
And the founding fathers also didn't move to the US to have legalized possession of guns.

But I guess I follow shadows advice and wait for the next semi hotbutton thread.

[Jester]

The founding fathers of this country believed that it's citizens should be able to do something if their government fails them, and to never completely rely on the government. This is a concept unlike any other in the whole world, at least among the semi-free nations. This is the reason for guns being important in the US.

Over 200 years later, and their reason is still very valid and their wisdom still holds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_rebellion

If it goes back to John Locke and further, how is this a uniquely American concept?

-Jester

[Ashock]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_rebellion

If it goes back to John Locke and further, how is this a uniquely American concept?

-Jester

It's unique because it's actually been implemented.

[Frag]

And the most stupid thing is that I said so myself in my first post in this thread.....but still I couldn't stop myself from posting more replies.....I should work a bit more instead of hanging around:D.

But I must also say it is the nice discussion that I appreciate. Although everybody else is obviously wrong and I'm right I like the arguments used here.....that is what separate this forum from others. (at least I think because I don't visit other forums that much).

And Ashok: first, I think most americans nowadays are not offspring of the founding fathers, and I don't think the ones that are not came to the US because of the nice gun laws.
And the founding fathers also didn't move to the US to have legalized possession of guns.

But I guess I follow shadows advice and wait for the next semi hotbutton thread.

Emphasis mine. Could you expound upon that which is bolded, for me, please?

Cheers,
~Frag

[eppie]

Emphasis mine. Could you expound upon that which is bolded, for me, please?

Cheers,
~Frag

O you didn't know that? :D

[Nystul]

Angel' date='Apr 18 2007, 06:04 AM' post='127862']
How is one to trust that the fellow or lass sitting next to you, or across the hall, will be as diligent in his/her plight to take down one such mass murderer? "Well, if I'm taking a chance trying to take this guy down, I sure as hell want to be certain those people over *there* will too!" Also, most people would probably assume that the first guy out of the chair is the first one who hits the ground. Rationalising. "Hmmm, if Chris and Claire go for him first from their table, he'll hit them first, but I'll be able to take him down from this angle."

Valour and self-sacrifice are noble ideals, but realistically speaking, who among us would react instinctively and give our own life for people we hardly even know?

I can't seem to find the post you were replying to here, but it is an interesting aspect of the situation. If someone points a gun at you, I think the initial reaction of most people is to appease the gunman and live to see another day. This is the best thing to do if all the guy wants is your wallet or your Nikes. If he starts killing everyone in the room without making any demands, then action is necessary, but panic will ensue. The people who faked dead or jumped out the window probably had a better assessment of the situation than most of the others. If everyone is going to die though, you have nothing to lose by trying to be the hero.

It is reminiscent of the hijacked plane taken over by a few men with box cutters. If the people in the plane realized they were never going to land, any small number of them could have neutralized the situation and prevented a tragedy. Perhaps they were just too afraid, but perhaps they incorrectly assumed that their captors had some motive other than maximum body count.

I would guess that this is not the type of thing you can really educate the general public on in a relatively peaceful place. It would be like trying to teach Florida natives how to drive on any icy road. Even if they visualize the situation, when the day comes that they have to use that knowledge, they will panic and do something completely unpredictable.

[[wcip]Angel]

Nystul: I was replying to Langolier, the guy who posted right before me (page 3 of this thread). Sorry if my comments were unclear in any way.:)

And Occhi, may I subscribe to your newsletter?:)

Dear eppie.
Friendly advice: get out of this before you get hurt. I hear Pete coming!:P

[Occhidiangela]

Angel' date='Apr 18 2007, 03:43 PM' post='127948']
Nystul: I was replying to Langolier, the guy who posted right before me (page 3 of this thread). Sorry if my comments were unclear in any way.:)

And Occhi, may I subscribe to your newsletter?:)

Dear eppie.
Friendly advice: get out of this before you get hurt. I hear Pete coming!:P

I suppose I ought to start one. All I could charge would be what I offer, which is two lire. ;) At the old exchange rate, of about 1700 lire to the dollar, I might make enough for a cup of espresso, if lire were taken anymore. Sadly, I don't think they are. Maybe eppie, who now lives in Italia, can tell us if he uses Euro, Lire, or both to buy his Barilla pasta.


Occhi

[Jester]

It's unique because it's actually been implemented.

The French have tossed their government out on its arse a half-dozen times since the American Revolution. Seems to be a national hobby.

Americans? Zero.

And, last I checked, taking up arms against the government, Jefferson notwithstanding, is still treason in the USA.

-Jester

Edit: Apparently not in New Hampshire, provided you can demonstrate the patently impossible, that all other means of redress have been exhausted!

[Roland]

On the first bit, how experienced are you in practical law enforecement?

On the second, I fear you are right. Live your life with no regrets, each day, so that if your day comes sooner, rather than later, you've given a good accounting of yourself. That, at least, is within your power to control, where so much in this life is not.

Occhi

Well, I can honestly and safely say that my experience will not ever live up to your own, so I suppose I should take your judgment over my own personal beliefs.

I don't know what to think, Occhi. Like all of us, I wish there was something we could have done "different" to change things, to have prevented it or lessened it. I'm pragmatic and realistic enough to know that's not entirely possible, but screw-ups do happen, and I wonder whether or not it happened here.

As I said, I may just be colored by my small-town mind. I can only guess at how difficult it would be to lock down such a large location, so any opinions I have on the matter of what should have been done are going to be just that: opinions, based on nothing more than a whim, really. I freely concede that.

I guess I just don't have much faith in authority, nor human beings in general. Never have, and it seems to get worse each year. Maybe everything was done right, and there was absolutely nothing that could have been done to lessen or prevent this disaster once the ball got rolling. I'm sure there were plenty of things that could have been done beforehand, in the months leading up to all this, but even that is asking a great deal.

In the end, all I hope for is peace for those affected and some semblance of order among the chaos this can bring about, in the media, politics, etc. I think I've given up on trying to figure out "coulda, woulda, shoulda". It's just not my place to hold such strict judgment, especially given that I know so little about it all.

As always, your insight is an eye-opener.

[Roland]

People that produce and sell guns are evil though.:wacko:

How can you, in the same post, go from being as least reasonably sensible to this? It boggles the mind... Are you just that dual of a person, or do you really not see it?

That's rhetorical, by the way.

Have your opinions, by all means. Just don't expect us to take them seriously when you don't present any foundation for them to stand on. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, look at what I quoted. If you still don't get it, I can't explain it, so it's best left dropped.

[Roland]

Yes because if people all, like you, just state......it is the fault of this sick demented individual...now let's get on with our life, nothing will change. There will always be sick individuals as long as there are humans.

'Let's just focus all our anger on this guy....o we are so happy he is dead, so much so that we almost have a good feeling from this whole incident.'

With that attitude things will continue happening. Although it is of course totally the fault of this guy....there are other factors that play a role. If we can think about those factors we might start getting a safer world, just blame everything on the weirdo might be good for the feeling...it doesn't help a single bit.

I don't know if it's just utter stupidity, ignorance, or language barriers (one of which being the inability to read emotion, intent, etc. via text on a screen). I'm going with the third option. I place the other two in the open for your decision-making only.

You don't know me. You don't know my feelings on this issue. You have me pegged dead wrong, but that doesn't seem to stop you from spouting off whatever comes to mind atop your soapbox. You would do well to do us all a favor, yourself included, and consider your perceptions of others very carefully before opening your mouth. It just may very well be that you are misguided.

There are certainly things that can be done to ATTEMPT to prevent this in the future. Most of them are tyrannical in nature. I for one refuse to succumb to that. Banning of all guns (hell, why stop there? Why not go for knives, of all sorts, as well? Screwdrivers? Hammers? Pencils? A sock? Anything that can be used to kill someone?) is not a solution. It is a knee-jerk, ignorant reaction to an overly abnormal occurrence. It's no better than saying "Give everyone guns and ammo, no matter age, criminal background, etc." People like you fail to see that, because you refuse to. Ignorance is bliss only for those who choose to participate in it.

Change will come, however slowly. That's not what matters. How it comes, what forms it takes, is. Moderate, rational change is what is needed, not blatant emotional reactionary change.

You have your opinions, and you are never going to change them. We have ours, and we likewise are not going to change them. The only difference is ignorance versus rational thought. Since we are, as always, at an impasse on this issue, why don't we ALL agree to let it drop? We get nowhere rehashing the same old tired lines. Someone could write a script to do exactly what we are doing right now, and frankly, I'm getting sick of responding, and of just reading through it all to sift the wheat from the chaff.