Do Shamans have a place in end game content?

[Treesh]

I've already found the right guild.:D

And they aren't getting rid of me without a fight mwhahahahahaah:P

/gkick Vinniejones


:wub:

[bonemage]

/gkick Vinniejones

I'll invite you back in, Vinnie! :w00t:

[Kevin]

I'll invite you back in, Vinnie! :w00t:

Oh and the fight is on! :)

/gkick Durambar
/gkick VinnieJones



I guess Vinnie was right he isn't going without a fight! (Yay! :w00t: )

[Taelas]

All Paladins bring Auras, Blessings and Cleanse. The more the better.

Sure. Do note that all paladins bring this. There's no need to take a Retribution paladin.

A Retribution Paladin adds 3% crit from all damage sources, regardless of group.

Yeah... If they scrap the infinitely-more-useful Judgement of Wisdom. JotC sucks. How many classes deal Holy damage? Paladins and non-Shadow priests. Retribution paladins' DPS output quite frankly sucks, and priests only use their damage spells when soloing. That means it's useful for Protection paladins--who can judge SotC themselves.

If there is a second Paladin judging Wisdom, Crusader Strike refreshing judgments can make a big difference, especially in longevity fights. If a second Paladin is a tank then Judgment of the Crusader further increases the efficiency and dps of the tank.

Paladins really don't have any issues with threat generation.

Sanctity Aura is currently being tested as +2% damage bonus to the group, instead of +healing. This would place the Retribution Paladin in a DPS group rather than the tank group.

Oh? This is on the PTR?

A Retribution/Holy spec can heal very well.

A full Holy spec can heal better.

A Retribution Paladin CAN do good DPS, not the best, but its good compared to all the other roles a Paladin can fill.

...
Wow. So the Retribution paladin's claim to "good DPS" is that their DPS tree does more DPS than their non-DPS trees.

That's.... well... that's... good. Really.

The DPS of a Retribution paladin isn't bad, no. But it's the single worst DPS tree across all classes. It's almost a pure PvP tree. I mean, look at Eye for an Eye. Mobs can't even crit with spells!

There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is no perfect build, you use what each individual brings to a raid and adjust to your strengths and weaknesses. Every class has multiple ways to bring valuable abilities to a raid and I refuse to pigeonhole any class into a "must have" build. Which makes me very happy to be in a guild that doesnt "make" people spec a certain way. Rather, we discuss our strengths and weaknesses and let intelligent players make choices that improve the guild as a whole. It also makes playing the game enjoyable and not a job.

You do realize that you're completely ignoring the possibility that the Retribution tree is simply not fit for end-game?

It isn't. You can ignore its shortcoming as much as you like, that doesn't change anything. The only good synergy a Retribution paladin has is with a Protection paladin.

Back on subject, yes Shamans and all other classes/builds have a place in end game content. But as always, you might have to find the right guild first.

Of course. Anyone can find themselves playing in end-game content.

[Skandranon]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is no perfect build, you use what each individual brings to a raid and adjust to your strengths and weaknesses. Every class has multiple ways to bring valuable abilities to a raid and I refuse to pigeonhole any class into a "must have" build. Which makes me very happy to be in a guild that doesnt "make" people spec a certain way. Rather, we discuss our strengths and weaknesses and let intelligent players make choices that improve the guild as a whole. It also makes playing the game enjoyable and not a job.

While this is sort of a noble sentiment, it's important to recognize those occasions when different does mean weaker. Retribution paladins are underpowered for any form of end-game content right now, and it's because of people like GG who correctly understand that sometimes talents and talent trees are weak that Retribution is getting upgrades on test realms. The goal is for Retribution to be different-but-equal; we aren't there yet, and getting there is best served by a clear understanding of what's wrong, as opposed to a very simplistic "everything is fine only evil guilds force spec" view. (I'm not even sure how "right guild" got into the discussion. No one is talking about forcing spec, nor about making you or anybody else respec, and Retribution's insufficiency is objective, not merely a matter of opinion.)

[Monkey]

No, it isn't an awesome point.

Why on Earth would I use a talent build which, quite frankly, contributes almost nothing except for class skills and spells? Retribution paladins have two things: They refresh all judgements and they have a +crit aura. That's it. And if you're the only paladin in the raid, the first thing is useless.

I want to be useful and desired when I join a raid--and I want to be that based on the choices I've made, not just my base skills which anyone of the same class will have. If that's the only reason why a Retribution paladin is taken along, he might as well spec Holy and actually contribute something useful aside from buffs and cleanse.

(Emphasis Mine)

Actually, it is still an awesome point, it just isn't about why you should use any particular talent build. Theorycraft comparisons of talent trees depend on many assumptions: Primary among those assumptions is that every player is equally and perfectly willing to respec to another talent tree. But the real life is far from ideal and the availability of such 'ideal' raiders is limited.

If we take two non-ideal players:
1. A Retribution Paladin who dedicates himself to proving, night after night, that he can deal competitive DPS
2. A rogue who idly observes, each time the damage meter is posted, how everyone is double his damage.

Who do you take for a DPS role? The Paladin who never gets there or the Rogue who doesn't care?

We can play at Theorycraft all night, but the reality is that finding good people can quickly become the number one challenge of a raid leader. Especially in the increasingly tightly scripted events of TBC. It's true that a Retribution Paladin is not the best DPS that you can squeeze from a raid slot. But that player brings more than DPS (as enumerated elsewhere in this thread) and if they're dedicated they'll carry you further than any one of the many lollygaggers you might otherwise select.



Edit: I would direct those concerned with the etymology of 'lollygaggers' to http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094812/quotes

[Sinomin]

Of course. Anyone can find themselves playing in end-game content.

As usual Alliera you totally missed the point(s).

[Sinomin]

While this is sort of a noble sentiment, it's important to recognize those occasions when different does mean weaker. Retribution paladins are underpowered for any form of end-game content right now, and it's because of people like GG who correctly understand that sometimes talents and talent trees are weak that Retribution is getting upgrades on test realms. The goal is for Retribution to be different-but-equal; we aren't there yet, and getting there is best served by a clear understanding of what's wrong, as opposed to a very simplistic "everything is fine only evil guilds force spec" view. (I'm not even sure how "right guild" got into the discussion. No one is talking about forcing spec, nor about making you or anybody else respec, and Retribution's insufficiency is objective, not merely a matter of opinion.)

I do realize the weaknesses of the Ret tree and I did not imply everything was fine. I was simply trying to point out that even with its current state they do if fact bring some value to a well balanced raid. If a raid was short a key class then it would obviously have to be filled with the most suitable choice. If all the bases were covered a Ret Paladin has its value and hopeful will have more value in the future. There were several references to forcing a respec and that Ret specs dont belong in raids. Hence my reference to the "right guild", which I apologize if that came off harsh. What I meant, was in reference to the OP's question of having a place in end game content. All classes/specs have value and if one guild (or one person) doesnt see that value it may not be the right guild for you.

Also the players skill and gear go a long way to making a spec valuable, as several have already pointed out, but thats not what the discussion was about.

[Tal]

A Retribution Paladin CAN do good DPS, not the best, but its good compared to all the other roles a Paladin can fill.

Sharanna as a holy paladin does almost the dps she did as a full ret paladin with better survivablity and more mana efficient heals.

Just throwing that tidbit out there.

[Cybit]

FWIW, Sango has a Ret Pally, and he can do some pretty nice damage. The problem with ret pallies is they need to be geared up. If they get the right gear, they can do some *nice* damage. Up until high levels of itemization, they aren't very good, but once they get their best gear, they can compete with other DPS classes who also have their best gear. Factor in the buffs and heals, and it's not necessarily a bad idea.

[Taelas]

As usual Alliera you totally missed the point(s).

No, I didn't. You're the one missing the point.

Yes, you can easily find quite frankly underpowered builds in end-game. Why? Because a lot of people simply play the game in order to play the game, not to min/max their characters. They don't care much about progression. They do want to see more, but what they enjoy is spending an evening with friends downing those big bosses.

To them, it doesn't matter whether or not Retribution paladins are overpowered. That's one of the few remaining reasons why you can find them there.

Oh, and good job ignoring the rest of my post.

(Emphasis Mine)

Actually, it is still an awesome point, it just isn't about why you should use any particular talent build. Theorycraft comparisons of talent trees depend on many assumptions: Primary among those assumptions is that every player is equally and perfectly willing to respec to another talent tree. But the real life is far from ideal and the availability of such 'ideal' raiders is limited.

If we take two non-ideal players:
1. A Retribution Paladin who dedicates himself to proving, night after night, that he can deal competitive DPS
2. A rogue who idly observes, each time the damage meter is posted, how everyone is double his damage.

Who do you take for a DPS role? The Paladin who never gets there or the Rogue who doesn't care?

We can play at Theorycraft all night, but the reality is that finding good people can quickly become the number one challenge of a raid leader. Especially in the increasingly tightly scripted events of TBC. It's true that a Retribution Paladin is not the best DPS that you can squeeze from a raid slot. But that player brings more than DPS (as enumerated elsewhere in this thread) and if they're dedicated they'll carry you further than any one of the many lollygaggers you might otherwise select.

I'm not saying that Retribution paladins should be kept out of raids, Monkey. I'm saying that Retribution paladins need a buff if they are to validate a raid slot, or at the very least a design change.

Yes, you can find yourself in a situation where your only choice is a Retribution paladin. At the moment, that situation sucks. The fact that you can find yourself in that situation does not mean the tree is balanced in any way.

[Taelas]

Sharanna as a holy paladin does almost the dps she did as a full ret paladin with better survivablity and more mana efficient heals.

Just throwing that tidbit out there.

Yeah, spell-damage heavy holy-shock builds are almost as good as full Retribution. Heh. If that doesn't show something is wrong, I don't know what will.

[Artega]

Yeah, spell-damage heavy holy-shock builds are almost as good as full Retribution. Heh. If that doesn't show something is wrong, I don't know what will.

I think the changes to Improved Seal of Righteousness will only exacerbate that:)

I toyed around with some hybrid off-tank builds, and there's just no comparing Holy/Prot to Ret/Prot. Holy can get more talents in Prot (including full Anticipation) while still putting out solid DPS (or solid healing), while Ret loses out points in Prot in exchange for DPS that probably isn't too terribly higher than a shockadin's. Honestly, I think Crusader Strike is the only reason you'd ever want a Retribution Paladin in a raid focused more on mix/maxing than playing the game.

[vor_lord]

You can also just burst through the healing and ignore the adds completely. That's the way I usually kill him (though I haven't tried it on Heroic mode).

Little bit of necromancy, and this is an offtopic offshoot... but here I go.

I've not tried it on heroic either but yeah. Any damage you put on the trees might be damage you could have put on him, and since he heals an amount equal to their health, it doesn't greatly matter either way. Seems to me the only reasons to prefer attacking the adds at all would be:

1. They are causing damage you don't want (i.e. healer munchy). This is where it could be tricky on heroic.
2. You can do "parallel" damage -- best example is DoTs. A Shadow priest proccing Spirit Tap off dots on the adds while flaying the boss is very nice. A warlock dotting up a bunch of trees is doing a lot more damage than he/she could to a single target.

Most of the time, you can maximize your dps by focusing on a single target, so I tend to just ignore the adds for the most part.

With respect to the druid hybrid nature, there are some fights with designed breaks that a bear could actually manage to use his innervate or rebirth... but I'm sure those opportunities shrink the further you get in.