Do Shamans have a place in end game content?

[Brista]

Every class has a place in end-game and the most important thing is gear not class. If you play a shammy at end-game I think you have the following options

- warm welcome in many raid guilds as a healer by speccing Resto
- welcome in most guilds as melee/melee support by speccing Enhancement. Most 25 man raids can see the virtue of bringing one Enhancement Shammy. Shammy, dps Warrior + 2 Rogues + other meleer clearly outdamages that same group with a Warrior or Rogue in for the Shammy
- welcome in very broad-minded guilds as nuker with Elemental spec. It's basically preceived as poor for raiding but some guilds let members play however they wish then work with that
- welcome in some guilds as Elemental/Resto nuker/off-healer hybrid. One of the better choices for a hybrid dps-healer build i think since nuking gear and talents to some extent suports healing too

- accepted in 5 mans as a main healer if Resto specced although not so sought after as Priest (which could be nice if you don't like being bombarded with whispers)
- accepted in 5 mans as dps although lack of crowd control is a drawback

- borderline for arenas/pvp teams

- pretty good at grinding or killing in pug bgs if not resto

Overall it's a decent package but like all hybrids there seems to be more fun from 1-69 when you get to shine in multiple ways than at end-game where specialisation is king

[Skandranon]

While the bit about shaman and paladins might be correct, your section on feral druids isn't.

I'm talking about real end-game, where mobs aren't tauntable and bears in cat gear get one-shot, since that's the context this thread was headed in. Five man examples (especially NORMAL MODE five man examples) don't mean a whole lot in respect to the topic of this thread. You can do any normal mode instance with a hunter pet tank; that doesn't mean one can tank in raids.

[Taelas]

*Yes, I know you're supposed to kill the adds, that's what we had the warlock and shaman trying to do. They were barely successful enough that we were winning, just very slowly.

You can also just burst through the healing and ignore the adds completely. That's the way I usually kill him (though I haven't tried it on Heroic mode).

[Taelas]

I'm talking about real end-game, where mobs aren't tauntable and bears in cat gear get one-shot, since that's the context this thread was headed in. Five man examples (especially NORMAL MODE five man examples) don't mean a whole lot in respect to the topic of this thread. You can do any normal mode instance with a hunter pet tank; that doesn't mean one can tank in raids.

Even in real end-game, cat druids can shift out to add support healing, innervates or a rebirth. Bear druids, not so much.

[Kevin]

I'm talking about real end-game, where mobs aren't tauntable and bears in cat gear get one-shot, since that's the context this thread was headed in. Five man examples (especially NORMAL MODE five man examples) don't mean a whole lot in respect to the topic of this thread. You can do any normal mode instance with a hunter pet tank; that doesn't mean one can tank in raids.

Yeah, I do agree that bear druids pretty much lose all hybrid options and I'm not sure how many cat druids will end up in a 25 man. Though I will say that a beastmaster hunter pet can off tank in heroics and Karazhan on the trash as I've done it. 12-13K armor, 9-12 K health (depends on what buffs I can get), 10% dodge, 5% parry, 5% block seems to be enough to off tank most of the trash in heroics and Kara. This will get even easier in 2.1 with some of the hunter changes as well. But I also acknowledge that those are not the end game. I don't expect to do that in Gruul's Lair. I doubt it will be able to OT trash in SSC either. And I'm assuming you're "real end game" means SSC at this stage.

[Artega]

You can wear hybrid gear, but in my opinion, that just makes you suck at two roles at once.

Pretty much.

[oldmandennis]

Resurrection for a pet peeve of mine...

They put in all this synergy, then they make it pretty much impossible to take advantage of it. Assuming a 3x7 2x2 class balance (and 3 of each healing class), if everybody specs a different tree you only have 5 healers, which really doesn't cut it.

If they had all this synergy back in the 40 man days (well I guess they did for a month or so, but 95% of people spent most of that month doing PvP anyhow) and had 5 of each class, it would be much easier to get an elemental and dare I say a oomkin or a retnoob into a raid. 25 is just too tight, you have to look at what are the "best" hybrids, which are probably ferals and shadows. The rest of them find a hard time get a spot unless you are really stacking that particular class.

[Icebird]

We have a little bit of everything in our guild. Of our 4 level 70 shaman, 2 are elemental, 1 is enhancement and the final one is Restoration. While the Resto shaman has the most obvious utility, the elemental and enhancement shamans offer enough buffs (Wrath of Air/Totem of Wrath or Unleashed Rage) to make them worth including.

Plus certain buffs to the group are shared amongst all shaman: totems and Bloodlust/Heroism, which is probably one of the best single buffs in the game. (30% faster casting and attack speed? For 40 seconds? Gimme!). Plus even non-Resto shaman can spot heal when the situation demands it which can be enormously useful.

So yes, there will almost always be a place for shaman in end game raids.

Taking a look at some of the other hybrid classes in our guild: We have a mix of resto druids, feral druids and 1 moonkin. Throwing the Moonkin and Elemental Shammy in the same group makes for some crit-happy casters. I'm not sure how frequently the druids shift between one role and another.

Of the hybrid classes, paladins seem to be able to shift most easily between different roles. One of our paladins is 41/20 Holy/Protection. He's main healed and off-tanked in Karazhan, and healed and main tanked in Heroics (obviously not in the same set of gear). On the other hand, he finds his build frustrating for solo questing and grinding.

Of all the possible talent builds, Retribution paladin is the one I can't see an immediately obvious role in raids. (Any ret paladins out there care to enlighten me?). It seems like almost any other option would be preferable for a DPS slot. (Obviously ret paladins have the same blessings everyone else does, but I don't see a unique buff equivalent to Unleashed Rage).

Chris

[Pantalaimon]

Of all the possible talent builds, Retribution paladin is the one I can't see an immediately obvious role in raids. (Any ret paladins out there care to enlighten me?). It seems like almost any other option would be preferable for a DPS slot. (Obviously ret paladins have the same blessings everyone else does, but I don't see a unique buff equivalent to Unleashed Rage).

Actually this is something that both myself and my guild lead have been wondering - we were randomly lurking the guild recruitment forums, and it seems quite a few raid teams are looking *specifically* for ret pallies. Is there some sort of gimmick fight that necessitates ret pallies? Because they don't seem to bring enough synergy to the table to be worth bringing, when as oldmandennis said the slots are already valuable with only 25 available.

[Taelas]

Actually this is something that both myself and my guild lead have been wondering - we were randomly lurking the guild recruitment forums, and it seems quite a few raid teams are looking *specifically* for ret pallies. Is there some sort of gimmick fight that necessitates ret pallies? Because they don't seem to bring enough synergy to the table to be worth bringing, when as oldmandennis said the slots are already valuable with only 25 available.

Retribution paladins have very little to bring to a raid. They have Sanctity Aura and they refresh all judgements with Crusader Strike--that's pretty much it. As far as I know, there's absolutely no reason to ever bring a Retribution paladin. All other classes have better DPS trees, and the tiny amount of utility that a Retribution paladin brings (which is specific to Retribution and not just paladins) is just not enough.

[Delc]

Lately I've been thinking of what characters I should solo up to eventually see some end game content. I'm sure we've all heard that the pure classes are what is wanted there. However, lately I've heard that paladins and druids also do well in end game content which is unusual, and nice, to hear about hybrid classes. The one class that I haven't really played much has been the Shaman. From what I can tell they have alot of promise but would it be worth levelling a shaman only to find that he has no place when I get there?

What are your opinions?

The reason you don't hear much about shaman is they don't really bring anything unique that you need to the group. Resto shaman make excellent healers, elemental/enhancement shaman make excellent dpsers, but really if you don't have a shaman in your group you don't lose anything terribly important. This doesn't mean shaman are useless though. A well played shaman is still an asset to the group.

[Concillian]

Actually this is something that both myself and my guild lead have been wondering - we were randomly lurking the guild recruitment forums, and it seems quite a few raid teams are looking *specifically* for ret pallies. Is there some sort of gimmick fight that necessitates ret pallies? Because they don't seem to bring enough synergy to the table to be worth bringing, when as oldmandennis said the slots are already valuable with only 25 available.

If your guild has excellent DPS, tanking and healing, but no pallies at all, then a ret pally brings a lot to a raid just in Blessings. It may be worth it to ask specifically for ret just to get people who are more dedicated because they actually found a guild that will support being ret, or perhaps even more far reaching in that they can get people willing to transfer servers just to be in their guild. It's always good to have not just raiders, but dedicated raiders... perhaps this is an attempt to get people who are more dedicated than Joe Average applicant.

[Monkey]

If your guild has excellent DPS, tanking and healing, but no pallies at all, then a ret pally brings a lot to a raid just in Blessings. It may be worth it to ask specifically for ret just to get people who are more dedicated because they actually found a guild that will support being ret, or perhaps even more far reaching in that they can get people willing to transfer servers just to be in their guild. It's always good to have not just raiders, but dedicated raiders... perhaps this is an attempt to get people who are more dedicated than Joe Average applicant.

That's an awesome point!

Theorycraft often assumes that a skilled and dedicated person will be available for each and every min/max role in the Theory-Raid. But the reality is that finding 25 dedicated people who will show up and go all out for each scheduled raid night is not a cakewalk. I'm not a serious raider anymore, but it strikes me as far easier to try and learn complex encounters with 25 dedicated and skilled off-spec players than 25 undedicated/unskilled perfectly min/max spec players.

Not to mention that skilled off-spec players can be quite smart about min/maxing their off spec*.

Maybe the answer to the original question about Shaman is that there will always be a place in endgame content for a dedicated and skilled player--regardless of their class or spec.

[Taelas]

That's an awesome point!

Theorycraft often assumes that a skilled and dedicated person will be available for each and every min/max role in the Theory-Raid. But the reality is that finding 25 dedicated people who will show up and go all out for each scheduled raid night is not a cakewalk. I'm not a serious raider anymore, but it strikes me as far easier to try and learn complex encounters with 25 dedicated and skilled off-spec players than 25 undedicated/unskilled perfectly min/max spec players.

Not to mention that skilled off-spec players can be quite smart about min/maxing their off spec*.

Maybe the answer to the original question about Shaman is that there will always be a place in endgame content for a dedicated and skilled player--regardless of their class or spec.

No, it isn't an awesome point.

Why on Earth would I use a talent build which, quite frankly, contributes almost nothing except for class skills and spells? Retribution paladins have two things: They refresh all judgements and they have a +crit aura. That's it. And if you're the only paladin in the raid, the first thing is useless.

I want to be useful and desired when I join a raid--and I want to be that based on the choices I've made, not just my base skills which anyone of the same class will have. If that's the only reason why a Retribution paladin is taken along, he might as well spec Holy and actually contribute something useful aside from buffs and cleanse.

[Kevin]

No, it isn't an awesome point.

Why on Earth would I use a talent build which, quite frankly, contributes almost nothing except for class skills and spells? Retribution paladins have two things: They refresh all judgements and they have a +crit aura. That's it. And if you're the only paladin in the raid, the first thing is useless.

I want to be useful and desired when I join a raid--and I want to be that based on the choices I've made, not just my base skills which anyone of the same class will have. If that's the only reason why a Retribution paladin is taken along, he might as well spec Holy and actually contribute something useful aside from buffs and cleanse.

I'm wonder if that is all they need. The buffs and the cleanse. They don't need the extra healing or the tanking. In that case a ret pally would be better because they do offer more DPS than the other specs.

While paladins stack well, when looking at buffs up to 4 (Might/Wisdom, Kings, Salv, Light) and a 5th can add a little buff value. 3 is generally fine to get all you need out of them because Light is only valuable of the paladin is doing a lot of healing. With consumable chaining the paladins longevity isn't really much better than a holy priests and if you are min maxing, you are chaining consumables. And a holy priest still brings more to the healing equation.

There are some things that a paladin tank does better (they can do really nice things on an AoE pull but a ret/prot build can do that job as well as full prot) than druids or warriors. But if you have solid warriors and druids than you don't really need the prot pally.

So if you really only want them there for the buffs and the cleanse since there are better healers and better tanks if you min/max or if you are adding a 2nd or 3rd for buffs and you have a holy and or prot paladin already, then yes a ret paladin offers more, because the extra layer of buffs makes up for the DPS that you lose by not bringing another pure DPS and having extra tanking or extra healing you don't need is more of a waste since they can't offer as much DPS as even the low DPS ret pally can.

If you figure that the 25 man is 2 of each class for a base 18 + an extra druid and priest for healing and you are just looking at what to put in those 5 other slots and if you figure both pallies are already holy pallies you are probably already covered on healing because you should have at least 2 of the priest, 2 of the druids and the 2 pallies and I'd figure at least one of the shaman has heal spec'd. That's 7 heal spec folks at least already. So if you want that 3rd buff layer from the pally then yeah you probably want a ret pally for it because they will actually add more than another healer or tank you don't need.

[Taelas]

I'm wonder if that is all they need. The buffs and the cleanse. They don't need the extra healing or the tanking. In that case a ret pally would be better because they do offer more DPS than the other specs.

While paladins stack well, when looking at buffs up to 4 (Might/Wisdom, Kings, Salv, Light) and a 5th can add a little buff value. 3 is generally fine to get all you need out of them because Light is only valuable of the paladin is doing a lot of healing. With consumable chaining the paladins longevity isn't really much better than a holy priests and if you are min maxing, you are chaining consumables. And a holy priest still brings more to the healing equation.

There are some things that a paladin tank does better (they can do really nice things on an AoE pull but a ret/prot build can do that job as well as full prot) than druids or warriors. But if you have solid warriors and druids than you don't really need the prot pally.

So if you really only want them there for the buffs and the cleanse since there are better healers and better tanks if you min/max or if you are adding a 2nd or 3rd for buffs and you have a holy and or prot paladin already, then yes a ret paladin offers more, because the extra layer of buffs makes up for the DPS that you lose by not bringing another pure DPS and having extra tanking or extra healing you don't need is more of a waste since they can't offer as much DPS as even the low DPS ret pally can.

If you figure that the 25 man is 2 of each class for a base 18 + an extra druid and priest for healing and you are just looking at what to put in those 5 other slots and if you figure both pallies are already holy pallies you are probably already covered on healing because you should have at least 2 of the priest, 2 of the druids and the 2 pallies and I'd figure at least one of the shaman has heal spec'd. That's 7 heal spec folks at least already. So if you want that 3rd buff layer from the pally then yeah you probably want a ret pally for it because they will actually add more than another healer or tank you don't need.

Have one of the healers spec DPS and ask the paladin to spec Holy. Much better management of your resources.

[oldmandennis]

Man, you are really reaching on this one GG.

Standard player not the class blah blah. Unless you are really on the cutting edge, having a ret isn't going to kill you.

But as far as going out of your way to get one? First off, your hypothetical group is short a real tank (3 warriors + 1 druid). That would automagically make prot > ret.

Or if you didn't want to do that, a far superior solution would be to get a holy pally, and make one of the druids feral. The utility of trees drops off very fast after the first one, but unless the druid is a complete waste he should be able to out dps a ret, as well as pick up some of the tanking.

Another option would be to convert a priest to shadow. Not only would a mediocre shadow dominate a ret on the meters by himself, he would also fuel a bunch of damage in your 2nd caster group.

Ret is just really impossible to justify on its merits as a spec for raiding. You might be able to justify it based on a players particular merits. Ret probably needs a couple of things - a third judgment that is about as useful as wisdom, and crusader strike to reliably refresh them.

[Kevin]

Man, you are really reaching on this one GG.

Standard player not the class blah blah. Unless you are really on the cutting edge, having a ret isn't going to kill you.

But as far as going out of your way to get one? First off, your hypothetical group is short a real tank (3 warriors + 1 druid). That would automagically make prot > ret.

Or if you didn't want to do that, a far superior solution would be to get a holy pally, and make one of the druids feral. The utility of trees drops off very fast after the first one, but unless the druid is a complete waste he should be able to out dps a ret, as well as pick up some of the tanking.

Another option would be to convert a priest to shadow. Not only would a mediocre shadow dominate a ret on the meters by himself, he would also fuel a bunch of damage in your 2nd caster group.

Ret is just really impossible to justify on its merits as a spec for raiding. You might be able to justify it based on a players particular merits. Ret probably needs a couple of things - a third judgment that is about as useful as wisdom, and crusader strike to reliably refresh them.

I know I'm reaching. Because I'm confused as to why I see people asking for them. I was also thinking 4 tanks was all you needed, not 5 that changes the balance as well. But yeah, making a druid go feral or even OOMkin over the pally being ret is still gonna do better for you on the DPS side. So I fail there, yeah.

The only other trick they bring is stacking them with a tree druid on the tanks and having them run sanctity aura to up the healing by another 6% so it's at 31% as opposed to just 25%. But even that only requires 23 points in ret and that would still let you go prot and get all the best tanking talents anyway. And that would put the 2 pallies in the tank group. What would that be? Tree, Tank, Pally for devo, Pally for sanctity, and I'm not sure. I don't see that as worth it.

You get 3% more crit for the whole raid (it affects spells too and it's not just the party, it's from the judgement of crusader, even still I'm not sure this makes up for the rest), 6% more healing for the tank, and you can make them use the Nightfall to up the spell damage more without hurting DPS more since their DPS sucks already? Is that what they are looking at doing? Making them the Nightfall bitch? I'm not sure they could keep the buff up well enough even if it can proc off SoC. And yeah I don't really count the other layer of buffing they add to the raid since you get that with any pally.

Again, yeah I'm stretching.

[Sinomin]

All Paladins bring Auras, Blessings and Cleanse. The more the better.

A Retribution Paladin adds 3% crit from all damage sources, regardless of group.

If there is a second Paladin judging Wisdom, Crusader Strike refreshing judgments can make a big difference, especially in longevity fights. If a second Paladin is a tank then Judgment of the Crusader further increases the efficiency and dps of the tank.

Sanctity Aura is currently being tested as +2% damage bonus to the group, instead of +healing. This would place the Retribution Paladin in a DPS group rather than the tank group.

A Retribution/Holy spec can heal very well.

A Retribution Paladin CAN do good DPS, not the best, but its good compared to all the other roles a Paladin can fill.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is no perfect build, you use what each individual brings to a raid and adjust to your strengths and weaknesses. Every class has multiple ways to bring valuable abilities to a raid and I refuse to pigeonhole any class into a "must have" build. Which makes me very happy to be in a guild that doesnt "make" people spec a certain way. Rather, we discuss our strengths and weaknesses and let intelligent players make choices that improve the guild as a whole. It also makes playing the game enjoyable and not a job.

Back on subject, yes Shamans and all other classes/builds have a place in end game content. But as always, you might have to find the right guild first.

[VinnieJones]

I've already found the right guild.:D

And they aren't getting rid of me without a fight mwhahahahahaah:P