Do Shamans have a place in end game content?

[Melekal]

Lately I've been thinking of what characters I should solo up to eventually see some end game content. I'm sure we've all heard that the pure classes are what is wanted there. However, lately I've heard that paladins and druids also do well in end game content which is unusual, and nice, to hear about hybrid classes. The one class that I haven't really played much has been the Shaman. From what I can tell they have alot of promise but would it be worth levelling a shaman only to find that he has no place when I get there?

What are your opinions?

[TheDragoon]

First, by end-game, I assume you mean raiding.

All classes have a place in end-game raiding. Blizzard has gone out of its way, from what I have seen, to make encounters that cater to the use of each class, at times. I know we missed having a Paladin for quite a while in Karazhan and I have seen similar uses for basically all types of classes, as well.

That said, not all specs are equal. From my reading it sounds like there are some class talent builds that are not necessarily frowned upon by many, but are less welcome. Generally, it sounds like elemental shaman, protection paladins, and perhaps some others are often left out (or relegated to a sub-optimal role) when it comes to raiding. Also, it is important to note that most end-game tanking ends up getting done by warriors (since the mechanics favor them heavily) and any class that can heal tends to get stuck healing due to shortage of players who are willing to heal. The usual exception to the healing thing is shadow priests (who melt fases). :)

[Treesh]

First, by end-game, I assume you mean raiding.

All classes have a place in end-game raiding. Blizzard has gone out of its way, from what I have seen, to make encounters that cater to the use of each class, at times. I know we missed having a Paladin for quite a while in Karazhan and I have seen similar uses for basically all types of classes, as well.

That said, not all specs are equal. From my reading it sounds like there are some class talent builds that are not necessarily frowned upon by many, but are less welcome. Generally, it sounds like elemental shaman, protection paladins, and perhaps some others are often left out (or relegated to a sub-optimal role) when it comes to raiding. Also, it is important to note that most end-game tanking ends up getting done by warriors (since the mechanics favor them heavily) and any class that can heal tends to get stuck healing due to shortage of players who are willing to heal. The usual exception to the healing thing is shadow priests (who melt fases). :)

Actually, you're going to be finding more elemental shaman lately. They've recently had some nice changes made and, iirc, they're going to be getting some more boosts with the next patch.

That being said, you're going to have to specialize until you get geared up for whatever you are running at the time as your end game. Once you get a certain level of gear, then you can spec to a more hybrid role. Until you hit the next gearing plateau and then you'll have to specialize again.

[Kevin]

First, by end-game, I assume you mean raiding.

All classes have a place in end-game raiding. Blizzard has gone out of its way, from what I have seen, to make encounters that cater to the use of each class, at times. I know we missed having a Paladin for quite a while in Karazhan and I have seen similar uses for basically all types of classes, as well.

That said, not all specs are equal. From my reading it sounds like there are some class talent builds that are not necessarily frowned upon by many, but are less welcome. Generally, it sounds like elemental shaman, protection paladins, and perhaps some others are often left out (or relegated to a sub-optimal role) when it comes to raiding. Also, it is important to note that most end-game tanking ends up getting done by warriors (since the mechanics favor them heavily) and any class that can heal tends to get stuck healing due to shortage of players who are willing to heal. The usual exception to the healing thing is shadow priests (who melt fases). :)

I guess us folks on Terenas are just messed up once again then. :)

Our one pally is prot with some holy and he tanks in Kara.

Of our 3 shaman, 2 are elemental and 1 is resto and they both destroy stuff in Kara. Our sister guild who is a little larger and a little bit ahead of us in terms of hitting the 25 man content uses elemental, enh, and resto shaman. The pally is deep in prot as well and gets to tank at times as well.

Our feral druids are called on to heal, occasionally but not very often, they get to tank a lot as well. Our shadow priest gets to melt faces a lot mainly because the extra healing from VE is more valuable than the pure healing but that isn't always the case.

But then again I'm used to things on Terenas being different from "the norm" and us still being successful.

[TheDragoon]

Actually, you're going to be finding more elemental shaman lately. They've recently had some nice changes made and, iirc, they're going to be getting some more boosts with the next patch.

My general impression from the posts I have read is that they are getting nerfed and they run out of mana really quickly. But I don't really know any elemental shaman that I play with a lot so I'm just relating second hand info here, so take it with a grain of salt. :)

[Treesh]

My general impression from the posts I have read is that they are getting nerfed and they run out of mana really quickly. But I don't really know any elemental shaman that I play with a lot so I'm just relating second hand info here, so take it with a grain of salt. :)

The elementalists that I run with generally don't run out of mana very quickly at all, unless they start throwing heal spells around. Just pewpewing, they can last quite a while right now.

And general impressions from the vast majority of folks on the wow boards just convinces you that the sky is constantly falling and every change is a horrible one. ;)

[Taelas]

Retribution paladins is probably the spec that has least use in raids. It has some, but just not enough.

I don't know anything about shamans, though... Been Alliance since release, and when I tried to switch to Horde, I was soloing all of the time, so I switched back. At least back on Alliance, I knew people.

[Treesh]

The elementalists that I run with generally don't run out of mana very quickly at all, unless they start throwing heal spells around. Just pewpewing, they can last quite a while right now.

And general impressions from the vast majority of folks on the wow boards just convinces you that the sky is constantly falling and every change is a horrible one. ;)

I looked at the PTR patch notes this morning and the only thing the elementalists are having toned down is "Elemental Focus": This talent now reduces the cost of the next damage spell by 60%. It will also now trigger from bonus spells cast by "Lightning Overload". So instead of 100%, it's 60%. If you have an elemental shaman in with a shadow priest or a pally puts wisdom on the shaman, right now, they can last like you wouldn't believe. I don't know if 60% is too much of a reduction or not, but I do know that one of our elementalists last night kept pewpewing his heart out in Karazhan without much need for drinking at all when we had the shadow priest in with the casters. We didn't have a pally along, but running out of mana was definitely not a big concern. And he only pulled aggro a couple of times. *splat* ;)

I'm going to put the whining of other elementalists in with the whining of the hunters - if you don't know what you're doing with the class, the sky is falling with every change. If you do know what you're doing with the class, the changes make sense and you'll work with the game mechanics in place to truly shine. I doubt I could play an elementalist, but I'm really, really glad we've got two good ones. :)

[VinnieJones]

Things are a bit hard up for elemental shaman right now on ptr. Thankfully they seem to actually be listning to us, as clearcasting has been upped o a 70% reducytion on the next spell. It's not quite enough yet for balance, but they are moving int he right direction for sure.:)

The real problem is that the four piece bonus for elem shaman is broken right now and will actually result in mana going up instead of down when the proc is up.

[Mirajj]

I'm going to put the whining of other elementalists in with the whining of the hunters - if you don't know what you're doing with the class, the sky is falling with every change.

Yes, because all those hunters on the EJ forums and other places in the end game (which Kara is not) clearly don't know anything about playing their class, or how to work with their class mechanics and hunters clearly have nothing wrong with them at all and everything is perfect.

Yeah, right. Hunters have some problems, and do need some help. The sky is not falling, but hunters are a lot of work for a little return, and right now need some help/Blizz lovin'. Most of us are just tired of waiting for Blizz to help out, and are playing other classes and having fun doing it.

Keeping this on topic: With the groups I've run with, I've never known a shaman of any spec to be turned down a raid spot. They are usually in high demand, no matter the spec, and are often wanted.

[Alrin]

Definately, why wouldn't shamans have a place in 'endgame' raids?
As long as you meet your minimum required quota of classes, healers/capable-tanks/dps it matters little in what way you fill the roles.
There are different degrees of efficiency, thats true but a skilled and dynamic player > a specific subclass.

[oldmandennis]

Chain heal still dominates anywhere there is environmental damage, and earth shield is still solid healing that transfers aggro to the tank.

One enhancement shaman is a great addition to a melee DPS group. The buffs more then make up for your lack of damage relative to a rogue. KTM is practically a requirement for that though.

Elemental shaman are tough to fit into a group. (blah blah standard play how you want). To chain cast for any reasonable period of time you need a s-priest, but those groups get very crowded with mages and hunters. IF your goal is DPS in an end game raid, I'd advise against planning on an elemental shaman.

[Skandranon]

Chain heal still dominates anywhere there is environmental damage, and earth shield is still solid healing that transfers aggro to the tank.

One enhancement shaman is a great addition to a melee DPS group. The buffs more then make up for your lack of damage relative to a rogue. KTM is practically a requirement for that though.

Elemental shaman are tough to fit into a group. (blah blah standard play how you want). To chain cast for any reasonable period of time you need a s-priest, but those groups get very crowded with mages and hunters. IF your goal is DPS in an end game raid, I'd advise against planning on an elemental shaman.

Pretty much spot-on. The only thing I'd add is that Elemental isn't as hard to fit as it seems. A 41+ point elemental shaman with a solid minor in Resto (down to Healing Focus) can be fit into a caster group and make up for the lack of damage gained from shadow priest by laying down Totem of Wrath and Wrath of Air, along with providing key spot heals to casters against environmental damage.

Obviously this is only meaningful where there's significant environmental damage to be taken, and so you can expect that the elemental shaman's ability to swap to healing (unlike Enhancement, since Elemental gear is significantly less gimp for healing than Enhancement gear) will come in handy. Elemental shaman still are not doing competitive raid DPS in real end-game, but their boosts to the rest of the group and flexibility combined with lukewarm damage just make up for it. This is in direct contrast to the Retribution paladin, who sacrifices nearly all of his healing capability for virtually no return (although changes intended to address this are in 2.1.0).

[Mavfin]

Elemental shaman still are not doing competitive raid DPS in real end-game, but their boosts to the rest of the group and flexibility combined with lukewarm damage just make up for it.

I'm glad to see that some understand what I've seen with elemental shaman for a while. It's not just about the shaman's numbers. It's also about the numbers of the people in the group. Shaman make groups better. How much better is partly skill on the shaman's part, and also partly up to the raidleader to use them in a complimentary way, and not just stick them in a corner alone, and then say they're not good enough on their own.

No, my elemental shaman won't top the DPS meters against well-geared mages and rogues, etc. But I may *help* them top the meters while adding quite a bit of my own damage, and tossing some heals while I'm at it. It really depends on the mindset of the players you're with.

[Mirajj]

I'm glad to see that some understand what I've seen with elemental shaman for a while. It's not just about the shaman's numbers. It's also about the numbers of the people in the group. Shaman make groups better. How much better is partly skill on the shaman's part, and also partly up to the raidleader to use them in a complimentary way, and not just stick them in a corner alone, and then say they're not good enough on their own.

No, my elemental shaman won't top the DPS meters against well-geared mages and rogues, etc. But I may *help* them top the meters while adding quite a bit of my own damage, and tossing some heals while I'm at it. It really depends on the mindset of the players you're with.

This would be the point/purpose of a hybrid, would it not? Not the best at anything, but very flexible and useful in a variety of roles that the 'pure' classes aren't.

[Mavfin]

This would be the point/purpose of a hybrid, would it not? Not the best at anything, but very flexible and useful in a variety of roles that the 'pure' classes aren't.

But, it's not always seen that way by some less open-minded players. 'tis a shame.

[Skandranon]

But, it's not always seen that way by some less open-minded players. 'tis a shame.

Well, let's be honest. A lot of the "hybrid" classes in the game aren't really hybrid.

Resto druids are pure healers - heal leather is worthless for tanking or kittyscratching. Tank druids are pure tanks, covered in +sta/+agi/+dodge and incapable of actually shifting out while tanking (or they get splat). Balance druids in theory have the same kinda-ok-itemization overlap as Elemental Shaman except that they can buff the group OR heal (not both at the same time) and their damage is terrible. Enhancement Shaman are rogues with buffs: their Str/Crit/Hit gear isn't healing anybody. Holy paladins are pure healers, ret paladins wear all Str/Agi/Crit, so on and so forth. Hybrids with the actual ability to hybrid within a fight are rare.

[Taelas]

Well, let's be honest. A lot of the "hybrid" classes in the game aren't really hybrid.

Resto druids are pure healers - heal leather is worthless for tanking or kittyscratching. Tank druids are pure tanks, covered in +sta/+agi/+dodge and incapable of actually shifting out while tanking (or they get splat). Balance druids in theory have the same kinda-ok-itemization overlap as Elemental Shaman except that they can buff the group OR heal (not both at the same time) and their damage is terrible. Enhancement Shaman are rogues with buffs: their Str/Crit/Hit gear isn't healing anybody. Holy paladins are pure healers, ret paladins wear all Str/Agi/Crit, so on and so forth. Hybrids with the actual ability to hybrid within a fight are rare.

You can wear hybrid gear, but in my opinion, that just makes you suck at two roles at once.

[Monkey]

Well, let's be honest. A lot of the "hybrid" classes in the game aren't really hybrid.

Resto druids are pure healers - heal leather is worthless for tanking or kittyscratching. Tank druids are pure tanks, covered in +sta/+agi/+dodge and incapable of actually shifting out while tanking (or they get splat)...[SNIP]...Hybrids with the actual ability to hybrid within a fight are rare.

While the bit about shaman and paladins might be correct, your section on feral druids isn't. I was healing a Botanica run with my resto druid for a druid tank with a druid cat DPSing on Warp Splinter. Though the cat was doing good DPS, our PuG warlock and shaman were sucking wind and we were having to wear Warp Splinter down (through the heals from the adds*) with just the cat and bear. Here's what happened:
1. I run out of mana and use my innervate.
2. I run out of mana again and get the cat's innervate.
3. I run out of mana a third time, so I trade the bear for a mana potion and the cat heals so I can regen.
4. I run out of mana a fourth time so the cat becomes a bear and taunts off the real bear
5. The real bear innervates me, heals himself and the cat-bear back to full, then taunts off the cat-bear.
6. Warp Splinter finally dies.:w00t:

It's absolutely true that the cat and bear had none of my resto healing power--their healing was a stopgap. It's a fallacy to expect a druid to shift from 'rogue dps' to 'holy priest healing' (and if they have iLoTP you might not want them to shift). But that doesn't mean a cat can't come out and drop a clutch heal, innervate, or rebirth and still have mana to go back to cat or bear. In fact, that's really the definition of hybrid, isn't it?





*Yes, I know you're supposed to kill the adds, that's what we had the warlock and shaman trying to do. They were barely successful enough that we were winning, just very slowly.

[VinnieJones]

Erm, I'm not so sure I agree with any of the comments here about shaman damage/longevity in live. I am by no means especially well geared but on the last three khara runs I've been on (two lurker and one keeper) I've been top dps and even withouth a spriest or a paladin I've only been using the average consumables that a mage uses on long fights.

In regards to endgame, some of the encounters aren't that good of a measure (Gruul being nature resistant half of the time), but the top raiding elem shaman I know (Ezareth for example) more than pull their weight in the meters while being a value-added totembot.

Ptr is a whole new cookie though, and could really shake things up. They've changed it again so clearcasting is a 70% reduction but I still feel that's not enough. I've already been pigeonholed into raid healing once, and if it doesn't change a bit more I'll probably just end up turning my enh shaman into my main for a while *shrug* That's the way these things go though.


The only problem I find these days is that I can be an aggro monkey. With good tanks *love you Tiga and Geld woo* it's not so much of a problem unless me and Xarhud are trying to get GG dead in Khara, but it can be a huge problem since with a crit or two and a trinket I easily break 800 tps.:(