Blizzard's "major announcement" is but mere weeks away

[Yricyn]

My sincere hope is for a Diablo 3, not a Diablo MMO. Diablo 3, with some enhanced Battle.net features and modern graphics, sound, etc.

[Artega]

I'd be shocked if it wasn't Starcraft 2. The announcement is taking place in Korea, which is crazy for SC. It's time for a RTS.

It's too soon for another MMO, though apparently they just started looking for MMO "next gen" developers. That would mean they are 3-5 years from their next MMO, at which point WoW will be getting a bit long in the tooth.

However, SC is known for its balance. Bringing in hero units and all the other doohickies and gimmicks that define modern RTSes would probably wreck any existing balance.

Frankly, I'd rather just see the existing Starcraft with an updated graphics engine. Kinda like Starcraft meets Dawn of War, maybe.

[[wcip]Angel]

Meh! I can't stand modern graphics (à la Warcraft3 and other RTSs). They're too cartoony and 'flashy'. I miss the old, gritty feel of the original Diablo.

[Merlinios]

Meh! I can't stand modern graphics (à la Warcraft3 and other RTSs). They're too cartoony and 'flashy'. I miss the old, gritty feel of the original Diablo.

That's not so much a function of modern graphics as of the direction Blizzard and various other industry leaders have taken. My best counter-example is the oft-cited Guild Wars, which is rather pretty, and definitely not cartoony for the most part. I fully agree on the cartoony issue, though, and you can see a clear shift in this direction in Blizzard products BEFORE 3D rendering, starting with Diablo II (compare Diablo II enemies to Diablo original).

Revamped Starcraft art, with perhaps a better engine, and maybe some dedicated servers for ladder games, would be truly awesome. Something closer to the concept art in the manual and further from the downright goofiness in some of the more recent Blizzard titles would be preferable.

--me

Edit: Quote formatting doesn't seem to like brackets in names, and I'm too tired to fix it fo' reals.

[oldmandennis]

However, SC is known for its balance. Bringing in hero units and all the other doohickies and gimmicks that define modern RTSes would probably wreck any existing balance.

Frankly, I'd rather just see the existing Starcraft with an updated graphics engine. Kinda like Starcraft meets Dawn of War, maybe.

Let's be honest - There's not really any way that after 10 years the big announcement is <drum roll> a graphical refresh. Like when they rereleased Star Wars in the late 90's (this time, the hydralisk shoots first). Weather they go with heros (and I don't think that's a conclusion you can make right now) or not, they need to make a ton of new units and change the gameplay. That's going to rip up the balance anyhow.

On the other hand, a "classic" mode could be real cool. As a sidebar to the real game, have the old game in the new engine. It probably wouldn't take more then a couple of man-weeks to do. The story is there. The concept art is there. Some amount of modeling can probably be reused. The level design is there. The balanceing both of levels and units is there. If they have some issues, say with armor being done differently, have an intern wave a hand at it. If it doesn't come out exactly right, its a sidebar anyways.

And I think a cool, cheap way to draw people into the Warcraft world (probably this will be for Warcraft 4) would be to reimplement *all* of the Warcraft games in Warcraft 4. They have to explain what happened in WoW somehow, and it would be way better as a "prequel" campaign then it would be as some dusty web page.

[roguebanshee]

Angel' date='May 17 2007, 03:00 PM' post='129774']
Meh! I can't stand modern graphics (à la Warcraft3 and other RTSs). They're too cartoony and 'flashy'. I miss the old, gritty feel of the original Diablo.

Tried Dawn of War or Company of Heroes yet?

[Yricyn]

If nothing else they should give a bonus to the marketing team. The website teaser is driving me insane. I've reviewed the page source, checked image file names, everything I can think of for some clue. This campaign to drive up internet interest is working for them, even if the announcement ends up leaving me wanting.

[swirly]

However, SC is known for its balance.

Another thing that SC is known for is that players often end up in control of large numbers of units instead of small squads. I read somewhere that this wasn't entirely intentional on Blizzard's part and is why they specifically built away from it in WC3. It kind of worries me that they will go the same route with a SC sequel. I'm unsure if it will even feel like SC without the mass unit control style of play. Maybe they will decide that mass unit control is SC's niche in the RTS genre and so not go the way of WC3, but I'm not confident about it. What does everybody else feel about this? How important is the mass unit control style to SC and do you think Blizzard will stick to it or go more towards the small squad control style like in WC3? Assuming that they are indeed going to announce SC2 and so this train of thought is worth considering.

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, I don't think think Blizz would want to make "Wc3 in space" so that shouldn't be an issue. It would be wise for them for them to keep both games' distinctive style.

Also, while producing lots of units quickly is a big part Starcraft's gameplay, it's actually a side effect of one of major aspects of strategy, namely, economic management. A lot of times, a player will have a larger army but if he/she doesn't put enough pressure on the other player who may have decided to spend more on improving their economy will end up losing. After all, resources run out and one cannot simply continuously pump units off one base.

There's also a very strong micro element in the game as well, although it's more generalized in that you can't preserve individual units like you can in wc3. Units in Starcraft have a high damage to HP ratio, which means that micro mistakes can be fatal, not to mention the gamepace is also fast. [eg walking 20 marines into 2 lurkers] Spellcasters are also highly effective. Certain units such as carriers can do lots of damage depending on how well the players micro them, and how the other players micro against them.

But yea, I think Blizzard, will take the time to be able to sell both Sc2 and Wc4. ;o

[DeeBye]

The new game is StarCraft II.

link

[Swiss Mercenary]

How important is the mass unit control style to SC and do you think Blizzard will stick to it or go more towards the small squad control style like in WC3?

Massing units and the associated requirement of 200 APM is actually what I hated most about Starcraft. Great game otherwise, but I hate building, moving, and attacking with 100 unit armies.

Warcraft 3's smaller food cap was a godsend.

Now, there's UI changes that can fix some of Stacraft's problems in that respect, but if I'll be spending half my mid-game time tabbing between my production buildings, queing up more units, no thanks.

[Munkay]

Another thing that SC is known for is that players often end up in control of large numbers of units instead of small squads. I read somewhere that this wasn't entirely intentional on Blizzard's part and is why they specifically built away from it in WC3. It kind of worries me that they will go the same route with a SC sequel. I'm unsure if it will even feel like SC without the mass unit control style of play. Maybe they will decide that mass unit control is SC's niche in the RTS genre and so not go the way of WC3, but I'm not confident about it. What does everybody else feel about this? How important is the mass unit control style to SC and do you think Blizzard will stick to it or go more towards the small squad control style like in WC3? Assuming that they are indeed going to announce SC2 and so this train of thought is worth considering.

What was that Swirly? I couldn't hear you over the 200 Zerglings running around on the creep.

I agree the mass swarm is definitively starcraft - something that would be noticeably lacking if they go the smaller unit route a la WCIII.

Cheers,

Munk

[oldmandennis]

Now, there's UI changes that can fix some of Stacraft's problems in that respect, but if I'll be spending half my mid-game time tabbing between my production buildings, queing up more units, no thanks.

I was never that good at WC3, but my impression was if you didn't have a couple of buildings hotkeyed and rallied to a hero, you were playing suboptimally. I wasn't a micro god by any stretch of the imagination, but 4-5 units getting there mid fight for the cost of 4-5 keystrokes seemed a good deal to me.

[Archon_Wing]

Massing units and the associated requirement of 200 APM is actually what I hated most about Starcraft. Great game otherwise, but I hate building, moving, and attacking with 100 unit armies.

Warcraft 3's smaller food cap was a godsend.

Now, there's UI changes that can fix some of Stacraft's problems in that respect, but if I'll be spending half my mid-game time tabbing between my production buildings, queing up more units, no thanks.

I have less than 1/2 that apm and can manage. Well, it's definitely a mess and I'm not very good in general, but it's quite manageable with say, 130 apm. There are quite a few low apm users that are strong, particularly protoss as they have the simplest means of production. It doesn't matter if you can't manage everything if they can't either.:D

[Swiss Mercenary]

I have less than 1/2 that apm and can manage. Well, it's definitely a mess and I'm not very good in general, but it's quite manageable with say, 130 apm. There are quite a few low apm users that are strong, particularly protoss as they have the simplest means of production. It doesn't matter if you can't manage everything if they can't either.:D

And it still doesn't make me feel any better, because when build-macro-spamming, I feel like I'm in a race against time, that I'm always losing. Forgot to have that fourth factory working out tanks for a minute? Even if it won't matter, I feel like kicking myself when it happens. And it happens far more often with me then it does in WC3 (Although there, something like that is probably a 'gg' right there)

I was never that good at WC3, but my impression was if you didn't have a couple of buildings hotkeyed and rallied to a hero, you were playing suboptimally. I wasn't a micro god by any stretch of the imagination, but 4-5 units getting there mid fight for the cost of 4-5 keystrokes seemed a good deal to me.

I used to have at least 6 buildings hotkeyed. Then I noticed that it didn't matter overmuch if I just had 2 - instead, I started saving my quick-access hotkeys for say, selecting individual casters, or parts of a control group, for better battlefield micro.

[Archon_Wing]

And it still doesn't make me feel any better, because when build-macro-spamming, I feel like I'm in a race against time, that I'm always losing. Forgot to have that fourth factory working out tanks for a minute? Even if it won't matter, I feel like kicking myself when it happens. And it happens far more often with me then it does in WC3 (Although there, something like that is probably a 'gg' right there)

Well, it's a video game after all so dexterity is a part of the game! It's not chess.;)Also I forget to produce units out of certain buildings for minutes on end. I am definitely a clunker, whatever you might say. ;o

You can always be more aggressive and try to harass your enemy. It doesn't matter if you can't build units fast enough if you distract him so that he can't build units. As long as he makes mistakes more than you it doesn't matter if you forget to produce units sometimes. Kill his workers, attack lone units and buildings and stop him from expanding. Or take expansions yourself. If you defend yourself well enough, you might realize you have 3k minerals and suddenly pump a huge army out to run your enemy over. And yes, this oftem means taking the battle to your enemy. I often can't outproduce my enemy either but I can often screw them up so badly so it doesn't matter.

Some ideas to annoy your enemy (depends on what maps you play of course)
Zerg:

Vs terran: Keep him at bay with a lot of sunkens and go mutalisks. Harass anything that isn't guarded, but never confront him directly. Pretty soon he'll have to cover his whole base in turrets, which wastes him minerals and gives you time to expand and get lurkers. Lurkers require minimal micro and a few can take out a whole army if you are sneaky enough. Late game, doom drops on his main base are the bane of most terrans. Also, small amounts of lurkers + dark swarm are extremely hard for terran to deal with

Vs. Protoss: Once again lurkers are a real pain to deal with. Keep them spread out and outside the range of cannons. Speed zergling abuse is really annoying early game. If he leaves his base, go straight for his minerals and destroy his probe/nexus.

vs Other zerg: Once again, speed zergling abuse. Against weak opponents you can add a sunken rush too. I've had games where they built a early spawning pool and zergling rushed me when our bases where close. However I manage to buy enough time to build sunkens in my base and also sneak a sunken in his base while he was too busy slaughtering mine. He couldn't save his hatchery, and proceeded to call me a hacker.

For Protoss:
Vs Terran: I don't care what anybody says, Dark templars are really annoying against terran. It makes them extremely paranoid. Good players will retreat their dt once they see the comsat scan, if they haven't picked off a bunch of units already. Late game arbiters or carriers are also extremely annoying. Carriers are easy to micro as you usually don't have too many. Remember they can move while firing, making them extremely annoying. Also early game, if he's trying to wall you can mess with him by building a pylon to prevent him from walling in.

Vs zerg: Well corsairs obviously. You only need a few, or only one if you are fast. Harass overloads, and use dark templars to bother him where there aren't any overlords.

Vs Protoss: Well those reaver things sure are annoying

Vs all: High Templar+ shuttle+ distraction = many dead workers.

As Terran:
Vs. Protoss. Vultures and mines. They're cheap and you can lay them anywhere. Makes for good scouting too. I've lost so many games because I let vultures get past my units and they picked off a bunch of probes. And of course, let's not talk about cliff abuse

Vs Terran. Dropships Dropships Dropships. Is your enemy too busy defending his front with 34 tanks. Well he's in for a surprise.

Vs. Zerg Ahahahaha all the random crap you can do to a poor zerg. The most obvious is a fast dropship. If they've been sunken whoring, this can really annoy the crap out of him. Bring firebats along to be a real pain in the ass. Also irradiate your own science vessels and send them flying over his drones. That will really piss them off. Irradiate a lot of things in general.

So you might say, these things won't work if he builds mass defense in his base or keeps his army at home all the time. Well that's what you want. If he builds mass defense, he isn't attacking you or expanding. He might forget to build units. And what's more important is that he's spending a lot of time worrying about which angle your coming from. It's much easier to harass than to defend against all angels of harassment.

Now you might run into a Korean robot pro that simply overwhelms you anyways. But whatever, you don't play 16 hours a day.;)But with the right tactics you can easily destroy people who can make units faster than you. And yes micro won't save all your units, but hey this is war. Not everyone is going to survive.

[Occhidiangela]

Now you might run into a Korean robot pro that simply overwhelms you anyways. But whatever, you don't play 16 hours a day.;)But with the right tactics you can easily destroy people who can make units faster than you. And yes micro won't save all your units, but hey this is war. Not everyone is going to survive.

Five to one, baby
One in five
No one here
Get's out alive
--Jim Morisson, one time rock star and Terran Marine Sgt--

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

BTW, for those of you who noted that Starcraft wasn't intended for a mass unit style, you are correct. The faster and fastest speed settings did not exist originally until people whined, and the ladder was kept at "fast" speed for a long while.

Ah, might as well stick some Starcraft 1 gameplay links here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lM4qlbTos8
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...3675888354
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtxUDEPOJg4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk-53CGaxFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdaa-6ECog4

[Icebird]

Besides the (very cool) cinematic trailer, there is also an artwork/gameplay trailer on the website. It feature mostly concept artwork, but also a few tantalizing slivers of gameplay. As best I can determine, the "large armies of massive numbers of units" will be order of the day rather than hero units.

If I had to choose between the "cartoony" graphics of World of Warcraft, and the more photorealistic graphics of Guild Wars I'd go with World of Warcraft. Unless you adjust the graphics settings, the "bloom" effects in Guild Wars are completely over the top (basically everything "glows" like a soft focus romance movie). Then there is the fact that the character models all look more like catwalk models than adventurers going off to battle ("Will this fight blemish my perfect skin and dashing good looks?).

Chris

[swirly]

Besides the (very cool) cinematic trailer, there is also an artwork/gameplay trailer on the website. It feature mostly concept artwork, but also a few tantalizing slivers of gameplay. As best I can determine, the "large armies of massive numbers of units" will be order of the day rather than hero units.

You can see the gameplay demo at IGN: http://media.pc.ign.com/media/850/850126/vids_1.html. This is what was played on the screen at the show. At the show they had a guy speaking over it and explaining the new units and such. The link I provided is high quality videos of the demo itself without the voice over. If you want to hear the voice over (I found it interesting) you can search on youtube for lower quality versions with it.