Stormrage Karazhan Discussion

[Lissa]

Well, at least it's not my fault.

It's Quark's fault, always is, always will be.

[Magix]

Well... I am not even 100% sure how to say what I 'want' to say... First, I guess, I will start by saying thanks to Zyn for stepping out on our last raid for me; pattern didn't drop from the mobs, but did get a DPS ring off Attumen... So, Thanks :-) And, while on the topic of Zyn... WoW... great game play, and could not have done any better than he did with the loot, than what he did... again, thank you!

I contemplated for two days prior to posting this... but, here it is...

First, when I moved to this server I was toast... tired of playing, and had almost lost interest in the game... but, wanted to give it one more shot, so, I moved... and, after moving... wow, the absolute difference that people can make - hmm... just like real life :-) Anyway, I came here a little skeptical, even nervous to a certain degree... would I be accepted...? would I be able to do the gaming things/exploration things that I wanted to do...? would I be able to add to / help others out in things that they wanted/needed to do...? and most importantly, would it be fun again??? There are days that all of us have, when we can't find help, can't get to that 'one' thing that you want to do today... but, reality is, I can count those times on less than 3 fingers since I have been here... and, quite simply... as far as lurkers, and avarice goes... I could not be a happier gamer! I have been a 'gamer' for over 20 years... I like to game... to play, to participate in things that do not relate to what I have to do practically 7 days a week for my livelyhood and to support/take care of my family... and that, simply, is gaming... I am a Chief Technology Officer / Program Manager with 82 employees, 5 managers, 1 secretary, 4 sub-contracts, product and service vendors coming out of the walls to try to sell me their products, and a bottle of Pepto-Bismol, and two bottles of Advil a week... I have a wife, and together we have 5 children, ranging from 18 (this august) to a 4.5 month old... a life full!!,
And gaming-wise I came from a server where I was the GM and the 'go-to' guy, the leader... and, that, turned into work, gamers, who did not even know one-another, complaining, bitching, stabbing one-another in the back... hmmm... just like real life too.. another pain in the ass... and, I thought damn... I have to deal with this in real life, I damned sure don't want to deal with it in a my gaming.. my "break" from reality... and topics such as the one at hand, have such a way of causing rifts that don't subside for days, weeks, or, sometimes, even ever... senseless! I say all that I just said so that those who do not know me have some kind of idea about me, and to understand the premise for which I add the following:

On the topic of the 'guildie' vs. non-guildie discussion...

Note: When I refer to Lurker the context can/may/does also include Avarice Alliance players as well

I do not want to speak for others, so I won't. I can say that as a Lurker, my impression was that this was a 'Lurker' run, and after going back through several posts/discussions on the topic - all of them refer to it as such... However, when we first started, we did not have enough Lurkers to fill the raid, in the 'right' positions that were needed, hence we, thankfully, received assistance from non-Lurkers; which was fine! Over time, that changed, as most things do :-) and 'Lurkers', in the right positions, became available... No where, at any time, from any person, did I see anyone post/discuss/say that Multanis or any other person that was helping us couldn't go; what I saw/heard was inquiries - not bitching/screaming/complaining/etc... - about 'Lurkers' getting priority and not waitlisted over a non-guildie - which means to me that the non-Lurkers, can in fact go if that position is not fielded, or a signed up/rostered Lurker does not show up or is late, etc... simple!

On the 'other side' of the coin...

As an x-GM, and as a manager in RL, some things are not always cut and dry, there are gray areas... and, this could certainly fall into either... However, there is another picture that I have not seen anyone talk about yet, and that is the big picture of end-game - 25-person runs.... If we continued to WL (for whatever reason) guildies for non-guildies, the issue(s) we have in filling 25-person runs will persist... Kara is not end-game, nor is Kara just about loot it is also about building a team... a team of people who learn one-another's response times, reactions, etc... and learn how to 'play' together... and become a unit, not a bunch of individuals going after a shiny purple 'thing'... In that light, I agree with sentiment to roster guildies before non-guildies, with this paragraph as the core reason behind that...

And, as a 'coach'/dad, when my son [Pen (Detector)] posted the original roster for our first run, and rostered his cousin (which not very many people here knew), instead of Holyrain, who came into the guild not to long after Holyrain, Holyrain was livid that he picked someone he knew, and was 'new' to the guild over him... both Sabra and myself talked to him (Pen); he understood and corrected it.. then, Arrock, Holy, and Gerdts discussed and worked it out... and, worked it out for the best :-) However, if you actually read the threads that were posted in "retaliation" isn't the bigger issue here just the opposite of what Pen was accused of... a raid leader 'retaliates' by quitting, girlfriend not only also 'retaliates' in a post, but essentially slams the entire guild from the GM down... then the Raid Leader's other Real Life friends make somewhat subtle (and, in one case touching) posts, then also quit... so, by one person getting pissed off cost us 40% of our raid team...

Well, the past is the past... what has happened has happened, there is no <ctrl-z> for this :-) However, I say what I have said with the utmost respect for all of those involved, even those who have decided to quit, leave, etc... However, we are where we are... can we simply put this experience behind us, utilize it as a lesson learned and continue moving forward... Additionally, I cannot think of one player (non-guildie) that has ran Kara with us that I would not invite to run with us, should we have the spot to do so...

In the spirit of the 'Lurker' in all of us, let's use this as a learning experience, to never allow to get out-of-hand, misunderstood, nor repeated and put this behind us and put a team together and have some fun! After all, isn't that what "Gaming" is supposed to be? :-)

Enjoy....
Enjoy the Game - Enjoy Life!

-Magix

[Tris]

However lets say we swapped someone who is a regular for someone who is new to the instance and isnt prepared for it-- How are we ever going to see progress if we have to re-explain every encounter to someone who isnt geared enough to be extemely useful in it anyhow? I dont really have any names offhand to place into the analogy truthfully, but its more of a worst case scenario.

Speaking from the standpoint of someone who has been periodically reading the fora, but hasn't been in game for a long time ca. 9/2006, and has nothing WoW related to gain from this statement :

I've said it a long time before, and I'll say it again. Progress requires a group effort. While it is great to have a core group of regulars to attend raiding events, it is still necessary to periodically rotate people in. Otherwise you have the problems you discussed above. I.E. you want to run the instance, but your regular tank(s) can't make it, and the only warriors available are wearing metallic color toilet tissue:P

In regard to the "How are we going to make progress..." I can remember when our guild took pride in teaching people how to play, provided the people were willing to listen. Progress will happen, maybe not as fast, but as long as you are dealing with a reasonably cohesive group, you will see progress. The more people who know how to run the instance, the better the situation... because one never knows when CPU, power, or other failure may strike.

Lastly, I hope that there isn't too much discord over the situation. I remember when I had problems with such things (as Tal, Sabra, etc. probably do too), and it just leads to destruction of relationships, *and* to a certain extent, progression (for those of a more recent vintage, I was dropped from the guild for a while for my behavior). I truly wish for an amicable resolution to the problem at hand. And, for those experiencing frustration over the situation, please feel free to send me a PM... believe me when I say, I've been there and done that.

No matter what the decision is, or who makes it, some people will agree with it, and some people won't (usually the people the decision goes against). The level of intensity over the agreement/disagreement is purely up to the particular individual.



-- We cannot give each other the wisdom of the ages, for that is something we each must seek. We can however, set guideposts along the way.

[weatherine]

I think your "facts" are wrong and one sided magix:

Detector's ill-fated run:
-Holy was the best equipped tank possible, yet another was chosen. So now preparation no longer plays a part? (btw I think the 2 tanks on that run tanked okay, but the other one, forgot his name, definitely was undergeared, even for normal 70 instances. Big difference in how much healing they needed, and how much they get hit for.)

The reason holy was not chosen was detector didn't know him. We know that now, that's a valid reason.

This kara run was mentioned because it wasn't successful, and then somehow, enthusiasm for the run faltered the next week. You don't see a connection?

Slamming the guild:
Are all of you seeing what I see?

You have a group with 10 players or so. Lots of flex to try to roster in a couple more, especially since this group knows the instance very well by this time.

Now you have another group, already overcrowded, and the solution and first decision by officials was to "politely" tell non guildies (who were *instrumental in actually getting the raid off the ground) to make way for guildies.

Is this the right way to treat people who've helped you, once they're no longer of use? (I can see a more obvious solution - take the few guildies who are having problems finding spots and roster them into the established run. Saves a lot of void crystals if nothing else.)

And when the people doing this are mostly people who weren't even part of the run, who don't know the various varying contributions by different members of the run, what should I think? I read a few of the later posts. So if I get it right, you (officers) didn't know this was what your post sounded like - that you came off as being users.


*The non guildies were instrumental because they met all the following criteria:
-reliable and punctual
-sufficiently geared for kara, and if not, brought whatever enhancement was needed (like elixirs/pots)
-play their class well

Basic checklist for any other well run raid, no? I won't even put "spec the best way to help the run" up there, but when the group isn't too strong, every little bit, like talent specs, do help.


And lastly, I'd almost forgotten the "quitting to retaliate" point magix brought up:

I left because (to summarise what's already been posted)

1) My friends, who came to help make up a group and were indeed, instrumental in us having any group at all, were not treated well.

2) People who would consider doing (1) are not people I want to play with.

I can think of more fun ways to retaliate. A well placed MD shot on a squishy clothie. Accidentally picking up a BOP epic you want. A well timed accidental DC on my current crappy computer. FD! Even something more normal, like not doing all I can to rush home just so I won't disappoint the group I've commited to raid with.

I've given all I could the past few weeks. Maybe you did too. But it didn't feel like everyone involved put in the same. I pay the same amount per month as you and everyone else and expect the same fun/effort.

[Magix]

I, in no way, want to get into an argument exchange...

Have you or anyone else ever been there done that in regards to going with a game-friend and helping their guild out with a run because a rostered guildie couldn't make it for one reason or another??? Because if you have, it is just that, helping out... and in return, if a drop drops that they can use, they typically, and in this case as well, get that drop... What is wrong with that? Nothing... However, my ill-fated facts simply lead to the point, that that help was and is wonderful, I, nor did I see anyone else, saying that a non-guild - non-alliance member could not go, but when it comes to rostering, guild/alliance members take priority... to me, that is simple... I cannot see a viable debate for that... and, if re-explaining the instance/encounter is an - or the - issue because someone from that guild or alliance has not been there before, I, personally, would be happy to explain it, I would even do it in whispers while we are setting up, so as to not waiste time... I really don't see the issue there either... sorry, I just don't...

And, as far as those who did come and help, if I, and others were not clear in other posts, Thank you... from the bottom of our gaming hearts, thank you... You did come, help get the raid off-the-ground, and that is greatly appreciated... but, to my recollection... you were not mistreated, were not overlooked for loot - the shinies :-) - nor were you told by me, an officer, nor anyone else that you were not welcome, in fact it is just the opposite... 'because' you helped, you are always welcome, to help and to get loot for your efforts... What I did see, however, was people simply asking the question why do guild-members simply not get 'priority' for sign-ups? Which, is a valid question, for both short and long term, and for Kara, and end-game runs... Again, to me simple...

And, to my Son's "ill-fated" run... it was our first run... it wasn't ill-fated at all; it was not only a learning experience, it was working out schedules, coming together as a team, and moving forward... it was simply the start, that's all...

There is no malicious activities, no putting anyone down, nor was there anyone saying that anyone who joined our raids did not do 'their' job... None of that happened... and the reaction from you, and a couple others, in my humble opinion, was the over-reacting... ie, there was absolutely no reason to bash the GM, or any other officer... why would one even find that necessary...??? the answer is, at this point, it doesn't matter... it's over... nonetheless from the guildmembers to the non-guildmembers, from the tanks to the healers and everyone in between, we did a good job... we got to see some parts of the game, that some of us had never seen... we all participated, and we all did well... and, my personal opinion, which I feel that I am entitled to, just as anyone else is, that Guild members, IF there is appropriate gamers, in the appropriate positions, should receive "prioroty" invites, IF they signed up... Then, if they are late, don't show, leave early, etc... etc... we go to the waitlist, which, in this scenario, would be a combination of both guild and non-guild members... again, for me, simple. And, again, I am not an officer here, I am a proud guild member, that is simple, and that is it... this, as well as my other post, is simply my opinion, my view, which is what - and all - that I am entitled to :-) This is also my last post - or response on the subject... I am undergeared, but ready for another run at Kara next week, hopefully we can gather 9 other gamers, in the right positions, to go have some fun exploring, and learn the mobs, bosses, instance while we are at it :-)

Have fun all, cya in game!
-Magix

[Popar]

Magix if you're insinuating that I left to retaliate you're wrong. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but....I left because I didn't like the way things were looking. Some of the non-guildies were my friends, good friends. That I had grouped with for a long time before joining the Lurker's. And like you said, raiding/gaming is all about playing with your friends and having fun. But on to the matter at hand...

If you guys wanted to make it guild only, that's fine. But having a Lurker's officer announce in vent that a member of the guild was upset, because non-guildies were in the raid, and that they were taking this certain guildies spot....that's just disrespectful to the non-guildies that were in the raid at that time. This officer read the tell word-for-word aloud, and then said that they agreed with him. How would that make you feel if you were along helping the raid and you hear an officer talking about how you shouldn't be there?

I was there, I heard the reaction from the other guild members, they were as shocked as I was that this issue was being brought up in the middle of a raid with non-guildies present. How does that reflect on the guild in general? Guild issues should be kept within the guild in my opinion. But in this case, they most certainly weren't.

[Sabra]

Tris! Good to hear from you!!!! Thanks for the words of reason.

[Mavfin]

I would prefer to honor the contributions of Multanis, Thamelas and iaretankgood if there is space for them in a raid.

There's my 2 gold so far, and I await your input. [snip]

The above are quotes directly from the post several of you quit over. Nowhere in that post did it say we, the Lurker officers, were going to throw anyone out in the street. Sabra said that giving priority to Lurkers was being considered and asked all of you for input.

What Sabra got in return was 4-5 people whose first response was to quit and/or rant about how all this was wrong.

People, I was *there* on TS Tuesday night. You didn't want to talk about it then, and your first response to discussion on the issue here is to quit, and/or slam the organization you were raiding with? Now, if you all think that's the right way to respond to calls for input, then good luck in your future WoW endeavors. If not, then you need to contact Sabra by PM, as this thread is not far from being closed if people can't be civil.

[TheDragoon]

I must admit that I am very confused as to why people felt the need to /gquit immediately. If I were in your shoes, I would have stayed around to talk things over, voiced your concerns and if things still don't reach a point that you enjoy, then leave with no hard feelings because we've all laid our thoughts out on the table. Rather, it seems people have immediately jumped to the end of that road and left which certainly doesn't sit well with those who really care about the guild (and make no mistake, the officers of Lurkers certainly do care).

Lastly, I would suggest that perhaps more effective progress can be made if you actually try to talk to people in game or over Teamspeak. I don't think that the forums are a very effective way to resolve this sort of an issue (which really seems to be a communication disconnect, from my point of view). :)

[Zyn]

I must admit that I am very confused as to why people felt the need to /gquit immediately. If I were in your shoes, I would have stayed around to talk things over, voiced your concerns and if things still don't reach a point that you enjoy, then leave with no hard feelings because we've all laid our thoughts out on the table. Rather, it seems people have immediately jumped to the end of that road and left which certainly doesn't sit well with those who really care about the guild (and make no mistake, the officers of Lurkers certainly do care).

QFT -- The only upsetting thing about seeing people GQuit for me so quickly was that no one even bothered to stick around to talk things over to begin with. This is supposed to be a guild of friends who get together to experience the end game as they see fit. People were jumping ship before anyone even saw the iceberg, and for that, I am extremely miffed to say the least.

Regardless, there is nothing that can be done about that now -- each has chosen their views and has moved onto other things. My idea as of right now is to get together with Magix and Sabra and try to schedule a run for next week. Unfortunately, Holyrain has been unreachable - despite a few phonecalls Ive made. So lets try to continue -- just two days to see where we get with it. Ill get the thread up as soon as I get permission, if I do -- and we can roster this thing to see if its still plausible. Im sorry people felt they had to step away from the guild, I dont agree -- but it wasnt my decision.

Any objections to trying this again under new management, at least until someone hears from Holy?

[Concillian]

Shadow Priests have such a huge impact on a raid it's not even funny. Suddenly you need one less healer, your DPS casters don't go dry, etc - an exponential impact on raid effectiveness, just from one class/spec along. Why am I holy again? :)

Shadow priests are totally uber. It makes organizing Kara groups 100% easier when you have one or more than one. Pallys are good too, as are resto shaman.

As I recall you had NONE of those three available at the time, I can definitely see chain chugging pots.
One thing we learned early on on Terenas was it was important to have a "mana regen" slot since we were blessed with several options (Shadow priest -- now 2, a Pally -- now 2, and a resto shaman with mana tide)

Kara is a completely different place when you have a raid slot set aside for mana regen... and people avaialbe to fill that slot.

One of the best things about shadow priests is that more is better. They have their own mana issues, but that is completely solved with 2 shadow priests in one group. in 25 mans you can support 2 to 3 groups with 2 shadow priests each before they start trailing off in effectiveness (2x s. priest / 3x healer groups will pretty much never run out of mana, which means they can focus gearing entirely on +heal and / or crit and not have to worry too much about spirit or MP5)

[Sabra]

Got your PM, Zyn and I'm in. I'm sure Magix will be as well.

Tal, if you read this and if you can get Arshes and Darian to alert their Kara2 runs that we're going again and it will be a whole new ballgame, would that be a good idea? Few reply to me, but I do keep posting our runs at HH and CA.

Seems like Emeritus pretty much has their folks covered, but Tuft, if you have orphans ....

[Darian]

Tal, if you read this and if you can get Arshes and Darian to alert their Kara2 runs that we're going again

What, I can't read it myself? ;)

It looks like the CA Kara is taking a short hiatus to get people better geared (and because some of us are hitting the vacation trail). I'll tell the crowd to consider signing up for your run in the interim, so long as you don't mind losing them again later once we start back up again. (Of course, we've still got some people in the process of getting keyed, so there may still be some folks looking for a steady run even once we restart.)

[Mavfin]

I think Zyn or Sabra is getting ready to post looking for interest in Monday, Tuesday and Friday nights.

See their post when it comes.

[Sabra]

What, I can't read it myself? ;)

It looks like the CA Kara is taking a short hiatus to get people better geared (and because some of us are hitting the vacation trail). I'll tell the crowd to consider signing up for your run in the interim, so long as you don't mind losing them again later once we start back up again. (Of course, we've still got some people in the process of getting keyed, so there may still be some folks looking for a steady run even once we restart.)

Hi, D! I didn't know you were here atm! Thanks for all the info. We'll put it in the game plan.

[Sabra]

I think Zyn or Sabra is getting ready to post looking for interest in Monday, Tuesday and Friday nights.

See their post when it comes.

It's looking like Wed and Thurs atm.

[Sabra]

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond to any of this. Life moves pretty fast sometimes.

I think your "facts" are wrong and one sided magix:

Detector's ill-fated run:
-Holy was the best equipped tank possible, yet another was chosen. So now preparation no longer plays a part? (btw I think the 2 tanks on that run tanked okay, but the other one, forgot his name, definitely was undergeared, even for normal 70 instances. Big difference in how much healing they needed, and how much they get hit for.)

The reason holy was not chosen was detector didn't know him. We know that now, that's a valid reason.

Winkle (Holyrain) came straight to me when this roster situation happened and I immediately put Pen on a better track, suggesting that the tanks work it out between themselves based on their gear, etc. That's what they did and Holyrain will confirm this. It was all straightened out by the next run.

You have a group with 10 players or so. Lots of flex to try to roster in a couple more, especially since this group knows the instance very well by this time.

Now you have another group, already overcrowded, and the solution and first decision by officials was to "politely" tell non guildies (who were *instrumental in actually getting the raid off the ground) to make way for guildies.

Waetherine, with all due respect, this is the part you just REFUSE to get. There was no decision made. Nothing was finalized. I made a statement. That was all.

I ask you to recall that I gave the group the opportunity to discuss this on TS at the very moment I received the complaint. Let me ask you this? Do you recall who was the very first person to in effect tell me to STFU and Raid? It was you. and you had back up, so...

Too bad we didn't discuss it then, so that I could go to the officers with a decision from the Lurkers in the group, who were, of course, the core Lurkers for that run at that time. 5-10 minutes of open verbal discussion would have saved us all this.

And when the people doing this are mostly people who weren't even part of the run, who don't know the various varying contributions by different members of the run, what should I think? I read a few of the later posts. So if I get it right, you (officers) didn't know this was what your post sounded like - that you came off as being users.

I'll limit my gut response to this to one statement ... Users, my foot!

It has been pointed out to me that my post in the sign up thread that began kara2 Raiders Read this may have been mispercieved as a ruling, harsh, dictatorial. Some others didn't see it that way at all.

If anyone bothered to read the whole post and not just respond to it emotionally, it would have been clear that I was stating my take and the take of the few officers who had responded to me. No decision had been made and I thre open the floor. Ah well.

Is this the right way to treat people who've helped you, once they're no longer of use?

Sometimes it's not just a matter of what's right or what's wrong when you're dealing with a large group and multiple objectives. The idealistic side of me - what remains of it after 57 years on this planet - wishes it were, but reality tells me it's not. It's a balancing act that ends up being all about compromise.

I'm sorry you didn't stay to be part of the compromises that would have come. I bet everyone would have come out on the high side. Nevertheless, your /gquit slammed the door on that. It's a shame, because if and when Winkle decides to come back, he'll likely follow you, and I will sincerely miss him.

Basic checklist for any other well run raid, no? I won't even put "spec the best way to help the run" up there, but when the group isn't too strong, every little bit, like talent specs, do help.

We've never asked anyone to respec. They do what their conscience dictates. Like you said here, all players are paying their money to build their characters. It's not up to us to balance their check books.

I can think of more fun ways to retaliate. A well placed MD shot on a squishy clothie. Accidentally picking up a BOP epic you want. A well timed accidental DC on my current crappy computer. FD! Even something more normal, like not doing all I can to rush home just so I won't disappoint the group I've commited to raid with.

Except for the very last portion, it would be difficult for me to express just how distressing it is that you actually took the time to write all that out.

I've given all I could the past few weeks. Maybe you did too. But it didn't feel like everyone involved put in the same. I pay the same amount per month as you and everyone else and expect the same fun/effort.

I hope you will find it going forward.

In closing, I'd like to say that you have a wonderful man in Winkle. You're a lucky woman.