Stormrage Karazhan Discussion

[Tal]

As promised here is the new discussion topic on how we can better balance waitlists, loot distribution, and still be able to raid amongst friends and the Alliance.

Keep it civil. If you were ever at all interested in seeing and defeating Karazhan lets work this out.

[Zyn]

I'll say here what I said in a PM. I dont really see that there ever was a problem. We rotated people in when we could, but it was more than often about having reliable people. People that were on time, ready to raid and interested in seeing new content.

It isnt easy balancing the desires of more than 13-14 people in an instance for 10 people and I think Holy did a good job for the most part. I think the people that were present who werent guilded, Multanis for instance, more than deserved to be there and Id love to see him grab a guild invite just to quash all the squabbling.

Tal there might not be a way to fix it because I dont see a problem worth fixing. Who was missing out that was complaining? That might be a good place to start. However lets say we swapped someone who is a regular for someone who is new to the instance and isnt prepared for it-- How are we ever going to see progress if we have to re-explain every encounter to someone who isnt geared enough to be extemely useful in it anyhow? I dont really have any names offhand to place into the analogy truthfully, but its more of a worst case scenario.

As for loot, I did as fairly as I could. The drops however, are dictated by what the instance gives us and also, the progress we can attain in it. We just arent getting many Cloth DPS drops, we have recieved to date -- 2 Plate Tanking drops (One of which is a trash mob Boots of Elusion) and 1 DPS Warrior cloak. If someone sits with us in the instance and wipes over and over and over til we down something, yet hasnt recieved loot in 4 weeks or so...and something drops they can use, should I let everyone roll on it (Even those who have already recieved loot) just to make EVERYONE happy?

I.E. -- T4 hands dropped off of Curator. Weatherine hadnt gotten anything in 4 weeks of activity. Popar had been active for two weeks and gotten nothing, Thamelas had recieved 1 piece of loot and been active for 3. I gave the t4 hands to Weatherine. She deserved them and really wanted them as it were. Mail boots dropped in Chess for us that week, which is risk I took when I awarded them to her. So in the end Weatherine got two drops in the same night, but as far as Im concerned -- gratz to her, glad she got what she wanted. I think, overall, loot was handled quite well. If anyone has any questions I have a detailed notebook full of loot information. What dropped of which boss, and when. Also who got it, and how much they have recieved vs how many active weeks they have with us overall.

I just dont see where this problem arose from. Whose unhappy honestly that has a decent gripe about the way things were handled overall? If I had known someone was upset, I would have stepped out -- which I did last night for Shadowmagix so he could maybe have a shot at his tailoring pattern and loot off of Attumen. I hope we can get this resolved because last night was our best night so far, by far. And letting something that seems this trivial ruin it is really disheartening.

EDIT: Maybe we can try to get the rostering thread up earlier -- It didnt go up til really late this week so I dont personally feel like Shadowmagix had a good opportunity to sign up, and I wouldve liked to have seen him main rostered yesterday. That might help see what we have to work with earlier, which might lead to easier rostering.

[Tal]

And if folk were wondering where they could tell "their" side - or air a grievance this would be the thread to do it in. All I ask is take the emotion out and any threats you might be thinking of throwing down. Lets talk it over rationally.

[Pen]

The issue that Pen was talking about wasnt concerning being WLed -- it was about being replaced by another Lurkers member when he was 29 minutes late for the invite time (7:15 -- he showed at 7:44. We were suppsoed to replaced him at 7:35 but Winkle was more patient.) I get this feeling that Pen wanted us to remove Multanis and invite him even tho he was late. IMO -- Tough #$%&, be on time and youll the invite you were rostered to get bro (No offense there Pen, even if the tone is sharp).

Firstly, i wanted to point out and respond to the fact that nothing i said last night even slightly related to me getting into the group, i had absolutley no intentions of raiding. my tell was about waitlisting guildies for non-guildies in what we started as a guild run, hence being posted on Lurker Lounge forums rather than the CA website.

And just as a "by the way":I couldn't make the invite time because I was having a discussion with my dad about not being able to get my transcripts from school until i have 20 hours of community service, so we were setting that up with a place during invite time unfortunatly.

[Pen]

1) There was a failed kara attempt organised by Detector. After that bad attempt, there was no enthusiasm in more runs.

We had 1 night of attumen attepmts (first ones for our group ever), and then we didn't get the chance to go back, people had busy schedules and it didn't fit.

Detector - I've heard him mention lack of mana pots twice now. Late a few times.

mana potions, i ran out once during curator after we wiped twice. so yeah...
The only times i was late, i explained myself...my little brother is 5 months old and occasionally i have to help do stuff for him too, among other things in RL, however i haven't been late due to them until last night.

[Zyn]

i had absolutley no intentions of raiding. my tell was about waitlisting guildies for non-guildies in what we started as a guild run, hence being posted on Lurker Lounge forums rather than the CA website.

I wouldve personally rather had Shadowmagix rostered than Iaretankgood, merely for the fact that I enjoy playing Shadow immensely. Im assuming thats the WL you were talking about there, man. But the roster and sign up thread were both posted too late to make any changes as far as I can see. I stepped out for him last night so he could at least have a shot at his Tailoring pattern and stuff off of Attumen.

Also, having no intentions of raiding and not telling anyone isnt helping either. If something like that is upsetting you, I think you shoulda let someone know. We coulda swapped out Magix for Iaretankgood, which is what I woulda suggested to Holyrain but no one knew you were upset about it. Also, I know Holy felt pressured to roster both of you constantly -- because he felt that if he WLed one of ya, even if it was for a guildy, then neither of ya would have shown up (Which happened once I believe.) In the end, I would agree that Shadow should have been in there instead of Iare, but there was nothing that could be done at that point. But I dont agree with just bailing on the raid and not saying anything until you log on, send a whipser and then log off. There were 9 of us that were counting on you being there that night, sadly it didnt work out.

I also think Holy's main reason for rostering Iare instead of Magix was due to the late response in the thread from Magix. But if the thread was up earlier, Magix could have had much more time to reply - so it wasnt his fault he was late signing up. So once again, maybe posting the sign up thread earlier would help every Lurker who wanted to get in sign up on time?

-Zyn

[Pen]

i didn't bail on the raid, my slot was filled, i didn't expect to have an invite waiting for me when i logged on and i didn't so i told sabra, hoped you guys killed all the bosses on the list (which you did), and went swimming.

what i meant when i said i had no intentions of raiding was what i said above, didn't expect to have my spot.

[Zyn]

mana potions, i ran out once during curator after we wiped twice. so yeah...
The only times i was late, i explained myself...my little brother is 5 months old and occasionally i have to help do stuff for him too, among other things in RL, however i haven't been late due to them until last night.

RL happens, I understand. But I remember tardiness consistantly happening with you. Im not pointing fingers Im just trying to remember correctly.

Also, the attempts Weatherine is referring to, was the first attempt of the night last week on Curator, you didnt have mana pots. I remember precisely what happened. If you forgot to bring em just let us know and you can grab some or borrow some. But they are almost expected, especially when we're trying something new like Curator where the fight tends to get long if it isnt executed perfectly.

[Zyn]

i didn't bail on the raid, my slot was filled, i didn't expect to have an invite waiting for me when i logged on and i didn't so i told sabra, hoped you guys killed all the bosses on the list (which you did), and went swimming.

what i meant when i said i had no intentions of raiding was what i said above, didn't expect to have my spot.

My mistake I guess, it sounded like you meant you didnt have any intention of raiding at all once you saw a Lurker WLed. My bad if I misunderstood.

[Lightlady]

O.O WoW, hot topic going on here. So hot that I could live in Alaska and still feel the heat. :P



It's tough being a raid leader because there can be so much heated debate on what the RL's discrete decision can result to. In another words it would suck to be President of US and have the people disagree on what he or she decides on certain things.

But, that's beside the point of the whole topic here. I personally expressed my concerns to sabramage, not realizing she was an officer, and she was willing to give up her seat for me. Yes, I'm undergeared a little bit and so might have sabramage at the time being and she won the pants from kara one day to replace an old one she had for quite some time. However, it was my concern of first come first serve. I thought it would be whenever the sign up gets posted people would start signing up and hoping to get in. However, as I understand it's the RL's decision on who should go in for the raid. Trying to determine what is need in the raid isn't always easy. Now that I ran KZ a couple of time, I understood why Holy sat me out a couple times. He expressed his gratitude on me being patience and when times come I will get my ph@t loot. When I'm not in the raid, I would be out trying to get better gear for KZ and other raids such as working on my tailoring skills to make the primal mooncloth set.

The word "Alliance" has a unique meaning to it. Definition stated from Webster dictionary:

1 a : the state of being allied : the action of allying b : a bond or connection between families, states, parties, or individuals <a closer alliance between government and industry>
2 : an association to further the common interests of the members; specifically : a confederation of nations by treaty
3 : union by relationship in qualities : AFFINITY
4 : a treaty of alliance

Anyone could have alliance that is outside of the guild's alliance. We all have one common goal within WoW. That is to have fun and win ph@t loot. There are people who are dedicated on running each raid and I applaud to each of their dedication. However, those who are dedicated and ran KZ or other raids could put some consideration on other people as well. Not only within the guild members but with our alliance and friends. Invite the friends into our alliance. Make our alliance stronger and better by supporting each other and helping those who are undergeared get geared up.


I'm not in here for grief, jealousiness, or to make judgemental calls. I'm playing WoW to have fun.

See you online.^_^

-Lightlady

[Zyn]

O.O WoW, hot topic going on here. So hot that I could live in Alaska and still feel the heat. :P
It's tough being a raid leader because there can be so much heated debate on what the RL's discrete decision can result to. In another words it would suck to be President of US and have the people disagree on what he or she decides on certain things.

But, that's beside the point of the whole topic here. I personally expressed my concerns to sabramage, not realizing she was an officer, and she was willing to give up her seat for me. Yes, I'm undergeared a little bit and so might have sabramage at the time being and she won the pants from kara one day to replace an old one she had for quite some time. However, it was my concern of first come first serve. I thought it would be whenever the sign up gets posted people would start signing up and hoping to get in. However, as I understand it's the RL's decision on who should go in for the raid. Trying to determine what is need in the raid isn't always easy. Now that I ran KZ a couple of time, I understood why Holy sat me out a couple times. He expressed his gratitude on me being patience and when times come I will get my ph@t loot. When I'm not in the raid, I would be out trying to get better gear for KZ and other raids such as working on my tailoring skills to make the primal mooncloth set.

The word "Alliance" has a unique meaning to it. Definition stated from Webster dictionary:

1 a : the state of being allied : the action of allying b : a bond or connection between families, states, parties, or individuals <a closer alliance between government and industry>
2 : an association to further the common interests of the members; specifically : a confederation of nations by treaty
3 : union by relationship in qualities : AFFINITY
4 : a treaty of alliance

Anyone could have alliance that is outside of the guild's alliance. We all have one common goal within WoW. That is to have fun and win ph@t loot. There are people who are dedicated on running each raid and I applaud to each of their dedication. However, those who are dedicated and ran KZ or other raids could put some consideration on other people as well. Not only within the guild members but with our alliance and friends. Invite the friends into our alliance. Make our alliance stronger and better by supporting each other and helping those who are undergeared get geared up.
I'm not in here for grief, jealousiness, or to make judgemental calls. I'm playing WoW to have fun.

See you online.^_^

-Lightlady

Ive been elated that you were interested in coming and talked to Holy about rostering you whenever possible. As of yet Ive been using my time online with WoW only for KZ raids, b\c my computer is broken and Ive been using my roommates -- so my time has been limited. But if you need a hand in 5 mans, please post something here or ask my if Im on and Id love to go help you, even if my time limited. I love having you along on the runs so Im willing to do whatever it takes to help gear you up for it. See ya soon I hope.

-Zyn

[Tuftears]

A note, I can go through 10 mana potions in a night, healing in Karazhan. It's just the way the fights run when you get to Curator. You can't pop them when you're dry because they won't be ready again in time; you have to pop one as soon as it will fill you up to full, then you pop the next one when your 2-minute potion timer is up. Repeated wipes will really eat potions up.

Stock up on mana potions is my advice. Also consider that over a 10 minute boss fight, the Flask of Mighty Restoration (24 mana/5 sec) gives 2880 mana, the Superior Mana Oil (14 mana/5) gives 1680, and Blackened Sporefish gives 960. That's two or three super mana potions' worth, and both the Flask and Mana Oil will stick with you after wipes.

Good luck on resolving the dissension. Just remember, WoW is all about playing with friends!

[Treesh]

A note, I can go through 10 mana potions in a night, healing in Karazhan.

:blink:Ten? You go through 10 when healing? How many other healers do you have in your run Tufty and do you have a shadow priest or a pally with you to get some mana back? Even on the learning nights in Kara I usually wouldn't go through 5, even on the runs where I don't have a pally or a shadow priest giving me mana back. There's something else going on if you need to chug that many mana potions healing.

[Tuftears]

Holy paladin and me (resto/feral), and a shadow priest in the group who normally stays on DPS.

This is on Prince and Nightbane, mostly, and on Illhoof. I used to use potions for Moroes and Curator, but I don't need to do that anymore.

As an addenda, this is if we've wiped a few times on those fights, obviously you don't need more than two potions a fight if you one-shot it, and sometimes you can get by on one.

[Bolty]

:blink:Ten? You go through 10 when healing?

Way back on our learning runs through Kara, I had a night when I went through 17 Super Manas/Fel Manas.

We've never had a shadow priest, and only got a holy paladin along really late in the game (basically when we reached the block of Nightbane flying phase with all-squishy healers).

I remember Curator attempts where I'd sporefish up, mana oil, healing elixir, elixir of mastery, adept's elixir, 4 super manas, and wipe to Curator's enrage due to lack of DPS. That was rough. :(

Shadow Priests have such a huge impact on a raid it's not even funny. Suddenly you need one less healer, your DPS casters don't go dry, etc - an exponential impact on raid effectiveness, just from one class/spec along. Why am I holy again? :)

-Bolty

[Mavfin]

Why am I holy again? :)

-Bolty

Too damned stubborn to change. Like me being prot back in the old days.

[Sabra]

As promised here is the new discussion topic on how we can better balance waitlists, loot distribution, and still be able to raid amongst friends and the Alliance.

Keep it civil. If you were ever at all interested in seeing and defeating Karazhan lets work this out.

Just for the sake of history - while Holyrain stepped in and did all of the raid leading, I was the one who initiated the Kara 2 run. I made the post to ascertain interest and cross posted it on the forums of the allied guilds.

Without commenting on who said what to whom or when they said it or how often it was said ... Without commenting on the motivations of anyone else but me ... I want to see this run restored to my original conception of it, which was a Lurkers/Allied guilds run, if only to avoid the type of rostering problems we just encountered.

Some background on the non-guild, non-alliance players and how they came to be there. We were short players on the initial runs, and invited some friend of Holyrain's and Weatherine's to fill spots. This is how Multanis, Thamelas and iaretankgood came to be in the runs. Multanis was so well liked and did his job so well that he bacame a fixture of the runs. The other two just subbed in periodically.

Initially Holyrain and I worked together to set rosters, because I had a deeper and wider knowledge of the players than he. Holyrain and I did not discuss the rosters for this week. tha may have led to the problems at hand.

I have not been on every run, but I believe that the loot distribution has been fair overall. We've had loot drop almost exclusively in mail and leather, so that's made it harder than if we'd had a balance over all classes. I think Zyn's done a good job and I know he's kept track. No one was ever told that they could not roll on loot, but there have been some cases where loot has been awarded. Always for good reason.

I've been told by someone I trust and respect that my post in the sign up thread that started with "All Kara2 Raiders read this" in bold did not come off as I'd intended. I'd used bold to make sure everyone saw it, and explained that I was an officer, so those who didn't know why I took the complaint to officer chat would understand.

I guess the whole post came off as Achtung! I meant to get attention, explain my position and state my opinion. Ouch! Sorry.

Even if my post came off totally high handed and overbearing, I felt the quality of the responses to it were very telling and I will trust that others see what I see. It may not have worked as I'd intended it to work, but something came out of it.

What I'd like to see would be for the Lurkers in Kara2 and the Lurkers in Kara1 to combine, have fun, gear up and move forward to new encounters. That would be a dream come true for me.

[Tal]

But, that's beside the point of the whole topic here. I personally expressed my concerns to sabramage, not realizing she was an officer, and she was willing to give up her seat for me. Yes, I'm undergeared a little bit and so might have sabramage at the time being and she won the pants from kara one day to replace an old one she had for quite some time.

Fun fact - you have as much + to heal as Bolty did when we stepped into Karazhan the first time.

Anyone could have alliance that is outside of the guild's alliance. We all have one common goal within WoW. That is to have fun and win ph@t loot. There are people who are dedicated on running each raid and I applaud to each of their dedication. However, those who are dedicated and ran KZ or other raids could put some consideration on other people as well. Not only within the guild members but with our alliance and friends. Invite the friends into our alliance. Make our alliance stronger and better by supporting each other and helping those who are undergeared get geared up.

-Lightlady

Its more to it than just dropping an invite Lightlady. There are three other guilds who must be talked with before we can consider adding to the Alliance.

[Gort]

There are three other guilds who must be talked with before we can consider adding to the Alliance.

But we all blame you as well, Tal.

And Ace.

[Darian]

But we all blame you as well, Tal.

And Ace.

Well, at least it's not my fault.