Heroic Shattered Halls

[NuurAbSaal]

We tried to get a Heroic Shattered Hall group together yesterday evening to increase our pool of Nightbane summoners (to three:P) but had trouble finding a fifth. The eventual group consisted of me as warrior tank, mage, hunter and two raid-healing specced Paladins.

Since I had never gotten around to doing the Trials of the Naaru quest in here, I thought this would be a good opportunity but was also worried that the lack of dps would thwart any attempt at making it in time.

Well, it was a cakewalk. Nobody in our group had ever been in Heroic SH but there aren't that many differences to a normal run. While three members were quite overgeared for it, me among them, it was still almost boring, not the thrill I imagined it would be. When I ran normal SH I was Fury spec and in mostly tier 2 tank gear and found it to be quite a challenge, never before did I have to tank as many mobs simultaneously. In short, I found it a fun in that it kept me on my toes and really trying to do my best. Apart from holding aggro against the Gladiator's Crossbow of the hunter, there were hardly any of those emotions in my recent Heroic run.

Now, I realise that all Heroics got hit with the nerfstick pretty hard recently, I hadn't anticipated it would be that bad when I read reports of fellow lurkers that had done them pre-nerf. I was under the impression that SH would be one of the more challenging Heroic instances, something of a 5-man raid experience. Meh:(

Any suggestions on where to turn for challenging 5-man content? I did enjoy the sense of real teamwork when we started, the feeling that "this is going to be hard, we really all need to do our best and work together well" that manisfested itself in Paladins stunning mobs I lost after less than a second, which made re-acquiring them trivial and the very nice coordination of our two crowd controllers. But the realisation that "it ain't really necessary" kind of took away a bit of that.

One observation I also made was that while trash groups are mostly boring (more so in Heroic Shadow Labyrinth that I ran a couple of days earlier), the bosses turned into annoying timesinks. At least they were hard, to a degree, but mostly they seem to enjoy vastly improved health pools that just serve to prolongue the fights.

Is there even any 5-man content that is challenging for raid-level gear?

take care
Tarabulus

[Bolty]

I think that boat has sailed, sadly. What made pre-2.1 heroic SH so nasty was that the trash was harder than the bosses - and it was, as you said, more of a 5-man raid challenge. All heroics have been hit hard by nerfbats.

If you want a 5-man challenge, try a 5-man Molten Core or BWL or something. :)

-Bolty

[Mavfin]

I think that boat has sailed, sadly. What made pre-2.1 heroic SH so nasty was that the trash was harder than the bosses - and it was, as you said, more of a 5-man raid challenge. All heroics have been hit hard by nerfbats.

If you want a 5-man challenge, try a 5-man Molten Core or BWL or something. :)

-Bolty

6-man Ony is fun:D

[Warlock]

Gear makes a huge difference. They were doable by players in high blues (a touch weaker than ilvl 95 epics); if you're running it with gear forty or more levels higher (the Gladiator bow is ilvl 136 and you've implied the Hunter was one of the less geared players) most aren't going to challenge you much. Difficulty does vary substantially between the instances though, so try one of the harder ones.

There is a thread on Bliz's Raid & Dungeon forums asking for feedback at the moment. I found some of the replies interesting - there is very little 'this is too hard' and a lot of 'more work for less reward than Kara'. I haven't done any post-nerf myself (inactive account) so wouldn't know. Pre-nerf I was underwhelmed at seeing the same level 68 blue that I'd sharded in normal and if it's still there would agree the loot tables could use a tweak. A few higher difficulty settings (one aimed at each tier perhaps) wouldn't hurt either.

[NuurAbSaal]

I realise that gear makes a difference of course, I guess I just thought (naive as I am) that it would still require "more" skill than a run on normal, not just more dps. And the hunter was the most pimped out char after myself:).

Thinking more about epic 5-man experiences, I came to the conclusion that only a minor percentage of people would probably enjoy dungeons that were really hard, with the crappy loot they offer at the moment. Even I'd probably only run them once, to have seen them and beat them. I'm right with you about the crappy loot of all but the end bosses in Heroics, doesn't make much sense, does it?

I'll have to think about 5-man MC:)

take care
Tarabulus

[Tal]

I realise that gear makes a difference of course, I guess I just thought (naive as I am) that it would still require "more" skill than a run on normal, not just more dps. And the hunter was the most pimped out char after myself:).

Thinking more about epic 5-man experiences, I came to the conclusion that only a minor percentage of people would probably enjoy dungeons that were really hard, with the crappy loot they offer at the moment. Even I'd probably only run them once, to have seen them and beat them. I'm right with you about the crappy loot of all but the end bosses in Heroics, doesn't make much sense, does it?

I'll have to think about 5-man MC:)

take care
Tarabulus

I find anymore that tanking heroics is just frustrating - if I don't lock down or CC every target immediately my healer gets eaten. But to do so means I need to have rage and with the amount of mitigation I have now its more of a struggle. I'd scale back my gear but, dammit, I don't have bag space to carry that too.

WTB Armory bags that will allow for storage of more armor.

Then there is the whole reward issue - right now I'm collecting badges for FR gear that it doesn't look like I'll need anytime soon and is not much of an upgrade over the greens and crafted blues I already have.

Heroics = meh but my friends want to run them so I run them.


Sharanna my paladin on the other hand could use a lot of the upgrades that heroics bring but few people want her if Shalandrax is available.:(

[RTM]

Sharanna my paladin on the other hand could use a lot of the upgrades that heroics bring but few people want her if Shalandrax is available.:(

Solution: spec Shalandrax 61/0/0;)

[Tal]

Solution: spec Shalandrax 61/0/0;)

Once I pay off my epic mount I may look at doing frequent respecs for Shal for raiding vs slacking off. ;p

[Bolty]

Heroics = meh but my friends want to run them so I run them.
Sharanna my paladin on the other hand could use a lot of the upgrades that heroics bring but few people want her if Shalandrax is available. :(

Well, that's more of a server issue with a severe lack of tanks on our server. Tons of healers, not many tanks. Well, scratch that - lots of players who could tank, but refuse to.

I heavily ran heroics (talked/yelled at my guildies into running them) back in Feb/March for three reasons:

1) I wanted to see high-end content before it got nerfed, which I rarely get to do due to slow raid progression.
2) I wanted to advance through the content/quests/trials quickly, because pre-TBC WoW taught me that if you don't move fast enough you won't get to see all the content before the next expansion. Well, this didn't pan out anyway. :(
3) There was no other place but heroics and Kara to access challenging content. As a healer, I crave challenging content that tests my focus, reaction times, etc.

I think I put my Rogue through hell (360 degree cleaves ftl), but it was a blast...but there really was no way Blizzard could have kept heroics at that difficulty level without really massively upping the rewards. The problems were rampant:

a) You needed key classes. Funky, "experimental" class combinations wouldn't work, especially for the uber-heroics like the Shattered Halls time trial. If you didn't bring enough CC, you lost. Some classes (like Rogues) were borderline dogmeat the way the 360-degree cleaves would wreck them in the crowds. Another example - the end boss of Arcatraz was simply not possible unless you had 2 healing capable classes, because his mind flays would do 8,000 damage and if they hit your solo healer, they'd never catch up to the damage output. The end effect of all this is that some classes would get left out in the cold, being highly undesirable to bring over other classes.

b) The damage was sometimes off the deep end. I think Blizzard just set a base modifier of damage, and set it so that "everything in heroic does X times the damage of normal" and considered that "finished." As a result, you'd have mobs like the Felguards at the end of heroic Blood Furnace hitting a Kara-geared Warrior for 8000-12000 per hit. Non-crit. That's raid damage, sure, but you only have one healer, 2 tops. Even if the healer keeps the tank up, the tank's not holding aggro against that, and the Felguard one-shots the healer for 23,500 damage non-crit (true story). You could kite the Felguards, but again, only if you have the right classes (see point a). All of the super-hard-hitting trash in heroics got nerfed massively in 2.1.

c) Some bosses were just poorly tuned. This isn't news for any cutting-edge raiding guild, being used to broken encounters, but that second boss in heroic Ramparts was just ridiculous - his name escapes me at the moment. You could basically have one melee against him and that was that. The curse he would put on a player would instantly do something on the order of 9000-10000 damage to anyone near them, and it fired too fast for anyone to get away from in time. This is the kind of stuff that's on par with Nihilum's first kill of Lady Vashj and them revealing how broken she was. Also, see point a.

2.1 made heroics easier on so many levels.

- If you look at the patch notes, you'll see all of the sick-damage trash mobs specifically pointed out for nerfs.
- Game mechanics drastically changed. Things like 360 degree cleaves stopped, giving melee classes much more viability. Before that single change, melee classes were basically a liability in heroics because they'd suck up so much healer mana/attention to keep alive.
- All epic dropped gear was buffed.
- Many of the hardest pulls had mobs removed. That last trash pull in Slave Pens that was such a PITA became much easier.
- Bosses like the second one in Ramparts got nerfed.

I'm not saying it's as drastic a nerf as, say, what Blizzard did to Gruul - but it's a very different thing now.

That all said, I don't really feel like running an instance unless it's heroic. Walking behind a tank and casting Renew with the occasional Prayer of Mending is not particularly exciting, and that's what healing is on normal difficulty. Heroics are always the hardest on tanks, though. Many mobs in heroics can still one-shot cloth healers, and that's really where the pressure comes from. I ran a heroic Blood Furnace last week with a killer Arms-spec'ed tank, which was fun for me because I had to heal a ton, and just ONCE a mob got away from him - and one-shot crit me for 13,000+. Of course, my first reaction every time that happens is "I would have lived in my PvP gear!" :)

So when I yell "heroics!" and get "meh" from the tanks, I understand. Without anything else to do, I return to PvP...

Heroics are still the best challenge in the game for 5-man unless you force challenge upon yourself, like the aforementioned 6-man Onyxia you crazy Terenas nuts did. :)

-Bolty

[oldmandennis]

Ony with 5 or 6 I don't find challenging. I wonder if a Pally could solo her?

It's not just your server that is short on tanks, I think they all are. My random tells from strangers are about 85% requests to tank and 15% heal, with no requests for boomkin.

Tanking heroics is much easier/more enjoyable on a druid then a warrior. Typically the biggest challenge is large pulls, and swipe works wonders on those.

I don't see what the problem is with scaling back gear - don't you have room for your DPS set? All netherweave bags is 80 slots, I personally always pack PvP, DPS, and tank gear. Of course, for many slots those are the same things for me, since I haven't bothered with DPS or tank gear since I hit 70 my PvP gear often ends up the best for all 3 roles. Still you should be able to fit two whole sets in, and mix and match to your desired mitigation.

[mandydax]

We were running Heroic SH last night on Terenas. We had Beartank, Healadin, Rogue, Elemental Shaman, and Frostmage (me). Since we only had Sap and Sheep for CC, I ended up kiting one on some pulls (and for the 7 pull with the 2 non-elites, freezing them over and over until the legionnaire was down. We had quite a few wipes, but only one each on Netherkuse, the Gauntlet, and Om'rogg. For what class mix we had, we were doing pretty well, I thought.

Then we got to Bladefist. We wiped so many times it's not even funny. We tried 2 DPS on the adds and we could barely keep up, and the blade fury killed someone, and we'd wipe. 45% was about the limit. We tried just burn the boss down and have the tank pick up the adds, and about 35% was the limit. The shaman had to leave and we brought in a boomkin, and we still couldn't kill him before the blade fury killed someone. We were spread out, but just couldn't do it. What strategy do you recommend for those of us who are finding this less of a cake walk and more of a broken glass and hot coals walk?

[vor_lord]

That all said, I don't really feel like running an instance unless it's heroic. Walking behind a tank and casting Renew with the occasional Prayer of Mending is not particularly exciting, and that's what healing is on normal difficulty.

But it can be so much less than that! Next time you're in such a run, see how far you can go with no healing. Some encounters you may have to, but if you make a real effort things can be more fun. This also frees you up to DPS (such as it is). This can help make things fun (but remember to tell your tank).

Me: "Dang it Frag, I had to use a direct heal you for on that 4 pull!"
Frag: "What? Why didn't you tell me you were going for no heals? I would have tried to mitigate!"

[Kevin]

But it can be so much less than that! Next time you're in such a run, see how far you can go with no healing. Some encounters you may have to, but if you make a real effort things can be more fun. This also frees you up to DPS (such as it is). This can help make things fun (but remember to tell your tank).

Me: "Dang it Frag, I had to use a direct heal you for on that 4 pull!"
Frag: "What? Why didn't you tell me you were going for no heals? I would have tried to mitigate!"

Heh sounds like when I was tanking UB with my L65 warrior (so about only 2 or 3 levels above level appropriate). I ran off without my healer, Treesh on her priest (in her DPS gear), because she had enough mana, but I didn't pay attention to the fact that she was herbing and killed a bog lord (rest of the group was a 65 mage, 63 mage and 70 mage so pretty solid DPS) without any healing. After I learned that I got even more insane. Of course the challenge of that run was keeping aggro off the mages, especially since I almost never marked anything for CC (I like to hold at least 3 mobs when tanking) and they would take that as license to AoE (especially little Tacita, I think he plays his priest too much and just has to let go and I've tanked for him too many times and I think he trusts me more than he should. :)) and they would split DPS at times since I wouldn't always bother to mark kill order past the 2nd mob (that takes extra time! and while I would try to mark stuff as I'm doing a little target switching, def stance T-clap lets you get pretty lazy on that at times). Good practice though for getting rid of the tanking rust.

But yeah, if that is the case let the tank know and just push stuff, don't use the PoM and renew, wear you DPS gear (which I'm assuming you already do) and go holy nova everything or smite away. I don't expect a healer to only heal on a run. See if you can out DPS the tank (not to hard to do vs a prot warrior, more of a challenge vs a druid). Play with mind controls (Treesh did that a few times, but she could let me know on the spur of the moment since we were sitting by each other so that I wouldn't waste time putting extra aggro on that target).

Of course Treesh will do stuff like that even in several of the heroics because really heroics aren't much different than a gear and level appropriate normal.

[mandydax]

But it can be so much less than that! Next time you're in such a run, see how far you can go with no healing. Some encounters you may have to, but if you make a real effort things can be more fun. This also frees you up to DPS (such as it is). This can help make things fun (but remember to tell your tank).

Me: "Dang it Frag, I had to use a direct heal you for on that 4 pull!"
Frag: "What? Why didn't you tell me you were going for no heals? I would have tried to mitigate!"

No, I think it was:

Frag: "What? Why didn't you tell me you were going for no heals? I would have worn pants!":lol:

[Bolty]

Then we got to Bladefist. We wiped so many times it's not even funny. We tried 2 DPS on the adds and we could barely keep up, and the blade fury killed someone, and we'd wipe. 45% was about the limit. We tried just burn the boss down and have the tank pick up the adds, and about 35% was the limit. The shaman had to leave and we brought in a boomkin, and we still couldn't kill him before the blade fury killed someone. We were spread out, but just couldn't do it. What strategy do you recommend for those of us who are finding this less of a cake walk and more of a broken glass and hot coals walk?

I'm guessing your rogue and mage were biting it on Blade Fury (Flurry?). That's a fight that, healing-wise, really favors Paladins for their toughness.

How spread out were you? Ideally you want the tank in a corner and the healer on the far side of the chamber, with LOS to that tank and whomever's handling adds. The problem with your group composition is that you're going to have trouble tanking both Bladefist and the adds.

You could then try either the "tank tries to tank everything" strat or the "DPS burns down adds fast" strat with no real tank but the rogue. Having the rogue "tank" the adds (while they're killed as fast as possible) keeps the rogue out of harm's way of Blade Flurry.

Every kill I've had of Bladefist in heroic was different, and it was always because of a different group composition. I remember one group of warrior/hunter/rogue/mage/priest where the warrior tanked the boss on the far side while the four of us killed adds on the stairway up to the platform. The warrior kept the boss so far away from us that Blade Flurry never reached us, and the hunter pew pew'ed the boss while the rogue/mage killed the adds. It worked, after 3 tries. It was delicate because if you go down the stairs too far, you aggro two Assassin adds who will clean you up.

You CAN outrange Blade Flurry, so it's a matter of trying to determine who beyond the tank and healer will have to suffer it. Cloth/leather classes aren't so hot for that.

-Bolty

[Artega]

I think that's compounded by the fact that Heroics were never really designed for raiders, anyway; at least, not in theory. I think Heroics were designed with "casual raiders" in mind; that is, people whose skills and desire to play the game are greater than that of the average "casual" player, but either lack the time or interest to raid in a real sense. Of course, there are several items from badges that appeal to players of all varieties (not to mention nethers now being available from them), which is why raiders do heroics, to my knowledge:)

[Tal]

I don't see what the problem is with scaling back gear - don't you have room for your DPS set? All netherweave bags is 80 slots, I personally always pack PvP, DPS, and tank gear. Of course, for many slots those are the same things for me, since I haven't bothered with DPS or tank gear since I hit 70 my PvP gear often ends up the best for all 3 roles. Still you should be able to fit two whole sets in, and mix and match to your desired mitigation.

My dps gear is pretty blowful. I was more talking about paring back and using my bold pieces.:P