Dump Alchemy/Herbs for Shadowweave Tailoring/Enchanting

[nobbie]

My Affliction Warlock is now at the end of Karazhan (Armory link), and I'm considering to dump Alchemy (transmutaion master)/Herbs for Shadowweave Tailoring/Enchanting to get the 3 pieces (robe, shoulders, boots) of the Shadow's Embrace set, which provides good shadow damage and harmonizes nicely with her two tier-4 parts (helm, gloves):



Now that alchemy or potion buffs/flasks respectively have been nerfed, I think tailoring/enchanting are an attractive option. What do you think?

[Urza-DSF]

My Affliction Warlock is now at the end of Karazhan (Armory link), and I'm considering to dump Alchemy (transmutaion master)/Herbs for Shadowweave Tailoring/Enchanting to get the 3 pieces (robe, shoulders, boots) of the Shadow's Embrace set, which provides good shadow damage and harmonizes nicely with her two tier-4 parts (helm, gloves):



Now that alchemy or potion buffs/flasks respectively have been nerfed, I think tailoring/enchanting are an attractive option. What do you think?

Well, dispite alchemy being a bit nerfed, why not just drop herbing to pickup tailoring for the new stuff? Since tailoring is a production skill its expensive to level, sure. But Enchanting is a gorram *hole* for gold. Hell, I still haven't gotten Molf capped, and hes had Enchanting for ages.

As I said, probally would be best to go Alchemy/Tailoring at this point, and rely on the AH/guildies to provide mats

[nobbie]

Hmm .. since tailoring doesn't require a gather profession, wouldn't make it more sense to keep herbalism and have others mix the drinks for you?

[Taelas]

It's your choice. Alchemy is more suited to alt-status nowadays, in my opinion.

But you really should dump one of them; the Frozen Shadoweave stuff is too awesome, it's as good as T5, if not better.

[Brista]

One option if you don't really want to reskill is to change Transmutation Master for something more useful like Elixir Master or Potion Master. (In my guild we had several herb/alch and no Potion Master until I became one). It's very useful if someone in the guild can mass produce. If there's someone else to make the potions then Herbalism/Tailor is attractive.

In relation to your current dilemma there are two questions you need to consider:

1) Are you in a really serious raid guild where everyone chugs mana pots every cooldown?

2) How long will you have to wait until dropped gear matches the tailored gear?

[nobbie]

I'm in a guild, but potion/buff resources are mainly managed by others already. Well, item replacement may come sooner or later. It all depends on drop luck in the upcoming 25-man raids where my guild as part of a raid group is not alone anymore.

Otherwise I also have the future in mind. Blizzard promised more production profession updates, and the 2nd expansion is on the horizon, too. I have a twink ready for alchemy, so it won't be a big deal to dump that on my main. The best tailoring stuff like Frozen Shadowweave is BOP, that's something a profession like pure potion mixing doesn't have. So, like Alliera said, alchemy (without specialization) is indeed alt-status, and you're better off if you choose a profession like tailoring with BOP items on your main. Transmutation mastery was a good money maker during the first weeks of TBC, but since the proc rate has become notably worse, it's a relatively easy choice to dump it an have an alt mix your drinks;)

[Brista]

I'm in a guild, but potion/buff resources are mainly managed by others already. Well, item replacement may come sooner or later. It all depends on drop luck in the upcoming 25-man raids where my guild as part of a raid group is not alone anymore.

Otherwise I also have the future in mind. Blizzard promised more production profession updates, and the 2nd expansion is on the horizon, too. I have a twink ready for alchemy, so it won't be a big deal to dump that on my main. The best tailoring stuff like Frozen Shadowweave is BOP, that's something a profession like pure potion mixing doesn't have. So, like Alliera said, alchemy (without specialization) is indeed alt-status, and you're better off if you choose a profession like tailoring with BOP items on your main. Transmutation mastery was a good money maker during the first weeks of TBC, but since the proc rate has become notably worse, it's a relatively easy choice to dump it an have an alt mix your drinks;)

I would take future profession upgrades with a large pinch of salt. When TBC came out Tailoring and Blacksmith (mainly for the big hammer and nothing else) were significantly ahead of readily obtainable drops and pvp gear. Arena teams won because their Warrior was a Blacksmith. Warlocks and Shadow Priests topped damage meters because they were Tailors. This was not typical and did not apply to Leatherworking or Engineering or the bop Jewelcrafter trinkets. Now Blacksmithing has already been eclipsed and once your raids get to T6 instances Tailoring will be surpassed too. I think the situation where crafted > raid loot was atypical and won't be often repeated. Engineering is probably about where they want a profession to be: one must-have epic that is better than all but the absolute best of drops, a few quirky and interesting pieces and a ton of filler that is adequate if you want to save dkp or are unlucky with your item not happening to drop.

The overpowered nature of Tailoring by comparison with the other crafting professions was a balancing mistake and I very much doubt that future content releases will restore its early 2007 supremacy.

For all that if you want to grind up Tailoring it will significantly improve your character for quite some time unless you're in a very intense raid guild (and it doesn't sound as if you are). It's about the same effort as grinding an epic flier for one of your other characters and probably more useful

[oldmandennis]

BS weapons have not been replaced - at least not the maces in PvP. That was the only one that was overpowered before, and it is still overpowered now.

[Raelynn]

I'd have to agree with most. Tailoring is a good choice to pick up, as the specialization sets are unmatched pretty far into the raid progression.
Which to drop becomes something of preference. I kept alchemy (as a transmute spec) to help me get the mats for the spellfire set. I transmuted all of my mights, and used Earth -> Water -> Air to get 3/5 of the primals for just about every might for 5g a pop. All I had to grind was the fire and mana.
Herb will likely get you more money, but honestly the best money/time ratio comes from the daily quests rather than any gathering profession.

In my opinion, leveling enchanting isn't really worth it because the cost is so high and all that you get from having it yourself is the ring enchants (which are relatively minor compared to the total bonuses you get elsewhere).

[nobbie]

In my opinion, leveling enchanting isn't really worth it because the cost is so high and all that you get from having it yourself is the ring enchants (which are relatively minor compared to the total bonuses you get elsewhere).

That's my opinion about Enchanting, too. But how about DISENCHANTING? Wouldn't it be useful for tailors so that you can produce all the expensive dusts and shards for your magical cloth yourself?

[Taelas]

Levelling Enchanting to 275 just for dusts and shards isn't really worth it.

[oldmandennis]

Levelling Enchanting to 275 just for dusts and shards isn't really worth it.

I dunno, I'm pretty happy I did it. It's really not that hard, especially if you funnel the items from leveling a crafting skill into it. If you need a couple more you can just go nuke ZF or something, and it's really handy I find.

[RTM]

Levelling Enchanting to 275 just for dusts and shards isn't really worth it.

I took enchanting pretty much for this reason alone. Eventually I'll max it out, but I'm in no hurry.

Considering the effort expended to get myself to 316 Enchanting, I'd say that it has definitely been worth it. I'm usually the only enchanter on a run, which means my services are appreciated for D/Eing unwanted loot. Any quest reward from SMV or Netherstorm that would otherwise vendor for under 4g actually makes me more money if I D/E it and AH the results, so I come out ahead that way (same works for earlier quest rewards if you adjust values down, of course). A quick scan & buyout for any level 65+ armor on the AH listed for under 4g can also be D/E'd for profit.

In the end, if you put a little bit of effort into it, it most certainly is worth it. Plus I can slap Minor Beastslayer on all my weapons for a nifty red glow, and you can't place a value on that kind of awesomeness.:)(it's actually ~50s in AH mats)

[LavCat]

I dunno, I'm pretty happy I did it. It's really not that hard, especially if you funnel the items from leveling a crafting skill into it. If you need a couple more you can just go nuke ZF or something, and it's really handy I find.

I agree. Roquefort, my mage is doing it. She is level 250 something and the hardest part is finding people willing to have their stuff enchanted. She hates to waste mats enchanting the same things over and over.

[mandydax]

Well, after reading your post, I took a good hard look at the set and can't believe I didn't drop mining fro it earlier. I'm already at 365 Enchanting, so the Imbuement of Netherweave is easy with my huge stockpiles of Arcane Powder. Yay for people giving me mats, too.^_^ I just got the shoulders made last night. That's some crazy extra Frost damage.

On the advice side, definitely keep your Alchemy. It will let you transmute Primals for the set. Swirly's doing Earth to Waters for me. Also, leveling Enchanting is a PitA and Expensive.:P

[nobbie]

Well, I have 3 alchemy twinks, so that won't be a big deal. But I think (dis-)enchantimg and not herbs is the way to go for me since I plan to level my alts through the 2nd expansion in any case;)

[Lissa]

I'd have to agree with most. Tailoring is a good choice to pick up, as the specialization sets are unmatched pretty far into the raid progression.
Which to drop becomes something of preference. I kept alchemy (as a transmute spec) to help me get the mats for the spellfire set. I transmuted all of my mights, and used Earth -> Water -> Air to get 3/5 of the primals for just about every might for 5g a pop. All I had to grind was the fire and mana.
Herb will likely get you more money, but honestly the best money/time ratio comes from the daily quests rather than any gathering profession.

In my opinion, leveling enchanting isn't really worth it because the cost is so high and all that you get from having it yourself is the ring enchants (which are relatively minor compared to the total bonuses you get elsewhere).

Not that far truthfully. When they changed gear in Kara, Gruul, Mags, SSC, and TK around, Tailoring does lose it's luster quickly. In truth, Suppression is a skill that you should only depend on until you get your +spell hit up enough and the put the points elsewhere into other things as 50% to 60% of all Affliction Warlock damage is coming from Shadow Bolt still and Suppression does nothing to help in regards to that spell.

Here's a list of some of the gear that drops and when and why it beats other items:

Gloves - Handwraps of Flowing Thought - Attumen - Simply put, these gloves are the best gloves for any spec of warlock until you get to Tier 6 gear. The amount of +spell hit these gloves provide along with the +damage is really unmatched. With a Blue and Yellow socket, you can easily throw in a Glowing Nightseye and Veiled Noble Topaz (or if you get the gems from Heroics, the spell hit/damage from Mech and amythest from completing the Kara quests). Once fully gemmed and enchanted, these gloves provide stats of 30 stamina, 22 Int, of up to 22 Spell hit (up to 37 with enchant), and of up to 47 damage (up to 67 with enchant).

Chest - Robe of Hateful Echoes - Hydross - This robe, when you gem it properly, gives up about 13 damage to the FSW Robes, but gives you far more stats in other areas. When gemmed with a Runed Living Ruby and two Veiled Noble Topaz, you end up with 7 more spell hit, have more Int (16 more), and 2 less stamina while picking up a good amount of crit. While crit won't help you directly with DoTs, it will help you indirectly with putting up ISB on the mobs. Overall, RoHE edges out FSW even for an Affliction 'Lock when it comes to DPS.

Shoulders - Corruptor's Mantle - Void Reaver aka Loot Reaver - Like Robe of Hateful Echoes, you will lose about +5 damage on the Corruptor's Mantle, but you will gain more +spell hit which is helpful. With Veiled Noble Topazes socketed, the Corruptor's Mantle loses only 5 shadow damage to gain 20 spell hit while having more +Sta and more +Int. Overall, Corruptor's Mantle is a win/win for any Warlock spec over FSW.

Boots - Boots of Shifting Nightmare - Hydross - This is probably the one piece that can be argued either direction since FSW Boots have sockets and BoSN do not. You can get about +8 more Shadow damage with FSW Boots, but BoSN has 10 more spell hit. As such, BoSN has slightly better DPS possibilities and it has much higher stats than FSW Boots.

Some comments on the bosses, Void Reaver is fairly easy fight to learn and is fairly easy to take down. The hardest part of Void Reaver is getting to him, otherwise he's basically a pinata. Hydross is the first boss in SSC, but you will need tanks in resist gear to fight him (frost and nature). Attumen, well, you've cleared Kara, so you should be able to get these easily enough.

So, seeing that FSW can be beaten or equalled without going too deeply into raiding, why would you still want to look at tailoring? The reason is actually Spellstrike. Spellstrike is very difficult to equal prior to Tier 6 because of it's proc if you have 350 tailoring. The proc seems to fire quite often giving you 92 extra damage for 10 seconds (not sure if this has the hidden 3 times cooldown, but I see it fire atleast twice a minute meaning it gives you an additional 30 DPS. If you do not have tailoring, then getting Cowl of the Grand Engineer from Void Reaver can replace the cap, but you need to take down Karathress to get the Leggings of the Corruptor.

[oldmandennis]

Well gloves are a red herring - there aren't comparable tailoring ones.

The other big thing (the reason I would have gone tailoring from the start) is it allows you to get all of your loot *Right NOW*. Hydross is a nontrivial dps check - you could use the FSW to help kill him. Also, it takes the randomness out of you loot. It will take an average of 2.5 months to get those boots once Hydross is on farm, and who's to say you will get the first pair. You are unlikely to get the first boots AND the first chest, it might be 5-6 months before they have dropped in sufficient quantities for everybody to get theirs.

Also, if you have the time and $$ to go tailoring, you can pass those items to somebody who doesn't. This increases the power of your raid, and allows you to save your DKP for items you can't get outside of raiding.

[Lissa]

Well gloves are a red herring - there aren't comparable tailoring ones.

The other big thing (the reason I would have gone tailoring from the start) is it allows you to get all of your loot *Right NOW*. Hydross is a nontrivial dps check - you could use the FSW to help kill him. Also, it takes the randomness out of you loot. It will take an average of 2.5 months to get those boots once Hydross is on farm, and who's to say you will get the first pair. You are unlikely to get the first boots AND the first chest, it might be 5-6 months before they have dropped in sufficient quantities for everybody to get theirs.

Also, if you have the time and $$ to go tailoring, you can pass those items to somebody who doesn't. This increases the power of your raid, and allows you to save your DKP for items you can't get outside of raiding.

Well, the point is, if you're going Tailoring specifically for FSW as an Affliction Warlock, you might want to rethink that before doing so depending on what your present skills are. If you're getting rid of gathering skills (like if you have mining and skinning or mining and herbing or skinning and herbing) it can be worth it or if you do not plan to raid past Kara. On the other hand, if you got a production profession and the complementary gathering profession and do plan to raid past Kara, the reason for switching isn't as compelling to go with FSW.

The other thing you miss is that it's not right now, you still have to get the shadowcloth in hand to make the 3 items, it takes 8 days alone to produce the shoulders, another 16 days to produce the boots, and 28 days to make the robe if you're doing this all yourself. It can take less time to produce the shadowcloth if trade your spellcloth and primal mooncloth for shadow, but saying that you can have it right now is a big misnomer.

[Professor Frink]

Attumen, well, you've cleared Kara, so you should be able to get these easily enough.

Lies! Attumen refused to drop my gloves for so long that Kara got bumped off the raid schedule.

I believe I'll be wearing my Arena 2 gloves till I can get T5 at this rate.