Rogue/Priest vs Rogue/Druid

[Bolty]

Tonight Quark and I lost a match vs. Rogue/Druid. Afterward we tried to figure out how to beat them and couldn't really think of a scenario that would pan out.

It was an Orc Rogue, so we were really screwed (huge stun resistance), but leave that out for the sake of argument. How does a Priest/Rogue combo beat a Druid/Rogue combo?

I want to dispel the Lifeblooms and Rejuvs off their Rogue. The Druid is using these instants because he fears my Mana Burn and needs to stay mobile. In between, he Cyclones me (which casts faster than Mana Burn does). Thus, I'm forced to heal my Rogue because I don't have global cooldowns to spare on dispelling the other Rogue in between Cyclones.

The Druid stays mobile and clear of my Mana Burns. I only managed to get off one or two.

I'm thinking this only results in a win if my Rogue can outdamage their Rogue enough to force more solid healing from their Druid, but I don't have a combat Rogue on my team. If the Druid has to get off big heals, it means he's not Cycloning me, I have more freedom to heal on my end, and maybe get off more Mana Burns. The worst thing was I'm pretty sure he Innervated, Cycloned me, and then ran out of sight to prevent me from dispelling the Innervate. Game over then.

Or is this a resilience/gear battle, where the more defensively-geared Rogue wins?

We eventually lost when I couldn't get enough big heals off and my Rogue flopped. The Druid was winning the mana battle anyway, so it was inevitable - I was trying desperately at that point to get a burn or two off because I could see the writing on the wall.

My advange in the fight is that I can dispel the HoTs and such he puts on his Rogue, while my PoM/Shield/Renew can't be dispelled. His advantage is that he can Cyclone me pretty effectively to stop Mana Burns and put me on the defensive with keeping my Rogue up, unable to take offensive actions like Mana Burns and dispels to keep ahead. Also, both of them start stealthed so they get to have the initiative, guaranteeing that we start behind on the mana war and have to play catch-up to tip the scales.

In other news, our success against Warrior teams has been going up a bit more. Warrior/Shaman is still a huge nightmare for us in any arena but Nagrand where we have a solid pillar we can continuously run around. Some of it was thanks to your advice in my whine thread, so thanks.

-Bolty

[NotSoDarklord]

I want to dispel the Lifeblooms and Rejuvs off their Rogue. The Druid is using these instants because he fears my Mana Burn and needs to stay mobile. In between, he Cyclones me (which casts faster than Mana Burn does). Thus, I'm forced to heal my Rogue because I don't have global cooldowns to spare on dispelling the other Rogue in between Cyclones.

I'm thinking this only results in a win if my Rogue can outdamage their Rogue enough to force more solid healing from their Druid, but I don't have a combat Rogue on my team. If the Druid has to get off big heals, it means he's not Cycloning me, I have more freedom to heal on my end, and maybe get off more Mana Burns. The worst thing was I'm pretty sure he Innervated, Cycloned me, and then ran out of sight to prevent me from dispelling the Innervate. Game over then.

This is exactly how we win this matchup as rogue priest vs rogue druid. Dispel is nice for the abolish poisons but with the way it triggers lifebloom procs it's kind of a bad idea to spam cast. Our matches against good rogue druid teams normally do not end the way yours do (when a good cyclone streak catches our healer offguard) but rather when one healer is pressured enough to heal the other rogue to not manage to ooc and drink. Early on in the season we played a top team that has since stopped playing where our matches would go on for 15 minutes every time. Druids are amazing at getting away to drink, but eventually we would wear them down too much. Always keep distract handy to interrupt drinks.

If the match is ending very quickly in the other teams favor you may want to try to force a longer match. Save vanish for when the other rogue pops his cooldowns (NOT evasion if he's combat because of the 41 point combat talent), and toss out gouges liberally using a gouge as a ticket to drink for a couple ticks. Evasion is another good way to buy the healer some time, and don't forget that blind is still useful in this matchup against the druid. Have your healer call out if the druid ever gets feared and uses his trinket and then toss the blind on the druid. Most druids do not put abolish up on themselves at all times so as long as you don't "/yell I'm going to blind you now" it should catch him unaware. A longer match may not necessarily mean that you have the upper hand but it gives the other team time to make mistakes.

[Bolty]

This is exactly how we win this matchup as rogue priest vs rogue druid. Dispel is nice for the abolish poisons but with the way it triggers lifebloom procs it's kind of a bad idea to spam cast.

Well, dispel doesn't clear poisons; only Paladins/Druids can do that. My thinking of dispelling Lifeblooms is that I don't want them stacking. I guess I'm probably screwed either way.

Our matches against good rogue druid teams normally do not end the way yours do (when a good cyclone streak catches our healer offguard) but rather when one healer is pressured enough to heal the other rogue to not manage to ooc and drink.

They won because they won the mana war - the Druid could get away and drink/innervate, I couldn't. I was trying to even out the mana supply by burning instead of healing and lost the Rogue, but the end result would have been the same since the Druid was at half mana and I had only 1500 left.

Always keep distract handy to interrupt drinks.

Interesting, but the Druid would be crazy not to run off pretty far and get out of LOS before drinking, no? Else they're wide open for Mana Burns. This is what the Druid did to us, at least. Distract's 30 yard range and LOS requirement would stop Distract from being of use.

Next time I will likely stop trying to be so aggressive offensively (getting in Mana Burns) and play more defensively (mana conservation of my own), try to beat the Druid at mana conservation, and then look for a key crowd control at a critical moment (Blind followed by Fear) after a Druid drink session. That's pretty much how we finally topped a Warrior/Shaman team.

-Bolty

[NotSoDarklord]

Well, dispel doesn't clear poisons; only Paladins/Druids can do that. My thinking of dispelling Lifeblooms is that I don't want them stacking. I guess I'm probably screwed either way.
They won because they won the mana war - the Druid could get away and drink/innervate, I couldn't. I was trying to even out the mana supply by burning instead of healing and lost the Rogue, but the end result would have been the same since the Druid was at half mana and I had only 1500 left.
Interesting, but the Druid would be crazy not to run off pretty far and get out of LOS before drinking, no? Else they're wide open for Mana Burns. This is what the Druid did to us, at least. Distract's 30 yard range and LOS requirement would stop Distract from being of use.

Next time I will likely stop trying to be so aggressive offensively (getting in Mana Burns) and play more defensively (mana conservation of my own), try to beat the Druid at mana conservation, and then look for a key crowd control at a critical moment (Blind followed by Fear) after a Druid drink session. That's pretty much how we finally topped a Warrior/Shaman team.

-Bolty

My point about dispel was that dispel will get rid of "Abolish Poisons" which is a huge advantage that the druid has in this matchup. As far as the mana war goes yes, it is a moot point if the druid is never forced to drink whatsoever. In any event interrupting drinks is a slippery slope. Devote too much attention to a druid that's obviously gotten away and the other rogue will punish you for it. Devote too little attention to a druid that does not hide his drinks well and there is no chance of winning.

The cc chain was our initial way of ending the match and a valid strat in itself. Natures swiftness can lead to some extreme frustration with this gameplan.

[Xame]

Next time I will likely stop trying to be so aggressive offensively (getting in Mana Burns) and play more defensively (mana conservation of my own), try to beat the Druid at mana conservation, and then look for a key crowd control at a critical moment (Blind followed by Fear) after a Druid drink session. That's pretty much how we finally topped a Warrior/Shaman team.

-Bolty

I have not run the numbers for either a priest or druid for healing, but rogue vs rogue with one of them getting poisons and the other one doesn't, sounds like a losing battle if you are just going to try to out last them. A smart rogue would swap poisons to wound to waste your heals if he saw a healing priest/palidin. But even if he didn't swap poisons and was combat spec'ed, he would eventually go through the diminishing returns on stun/blind and win the long haul fight given that your rogue is not combat spec'ed. Forcing you to out heal the druid (thus the question, can a PvP priest outheal a PvP druid?)

To some degree, you are fighting their fight if you go for a mana lasting strat. I believe you need to add more pressure to the druid to go for heals by helping dps the rogue (swp, wand). If the fight stands as you discribe it, the druid chooses the tempo and with cyclone gets to drink/do whatever on his schedule. He also could prevent you from drinking if you tried to sneak off with low rank damage spells or just chase you down. He could also just swap you drinks knowing his rogue will end up ahead with poisons. Simply you won't get out of combat to drink if he wants to prevent it. Thus if you chase him, he runs, if you run he chases. Pressure the rogue and force the druid to risk a mana burn if he is going to stand close to heal. You also want to force him to use the cyclones to get them on diminishing returns. Expect a long fight as you run through all of the Druids cooldowns and mana. Thus the wand and low ranks of SWP to force a CoS on the rogue for Vanish/Sprint restealth (if you as a priest try to sneak away, expect sprint, stealth+sap/shiv if the rogue knows where you are hiding).