Paladin talent choices

[swirly]

I have a little baby paladin who I plan to raise to be a 5-man tank (normal and heroic). I have pretty much no aspirations to going on raids with him, though I suppose if he did go he could at least offtank something. So with that in mind I've been considering talents and what build to go with. Several options seemed interesting to me so I thought I'd go over them. First I'll go over the talents individually that I think could be useful to consider and then I'll go into specific builds.

Protection Talents

Redoubt: Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 6%/12%/18%/24%/30%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks.
Pretty clearly a tanking talent. I've heard it can be less useful when you have good gear and holy shield, but I figure its still better than imp devotion aura.

Toughness: Increases your armor value from items by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10%.
Pretty standard tanking talent and good to climb the tree with anyway.

Precision: Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%
I hear +hit is hard to come by on tanking gear so this could be good. I figure a pally tank gets most of his threat from holy damage though so its not as good as it seems. Still, seals proc on hits that connect and so +hit does help them and so is still good.

Anticipation: Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
A solid tanking talent. The issue is that you can probably cap your +defense with items and so the points could be put to better use in other places. If you are having trouble capping your +defense though, this can help.

Shield Specialization: Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10%/20%/30%.
Paladins block alot and so a shield absorbing more should be a good thing.

Improved Righteous Fury: While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 2%/4/%6% and increases the amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 16%/33%/50%.
Less damage + more threat. Pretty much a perfect talent for a tank.

Blessing of Kings: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time
I figure this isn't really going to be used that much, but if you don't need anticipation then one might as well pick this up.

Blessing of Sanctuary: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, reducing damage dealt from all sources by up to 80 for 5 min. In addition, when the target blocks a melee attack the attacker will take 46 Holy damage. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time.
I figure this is the pally tanking blessing. It reduces damage some while adding damage and threat.

Reckoning: Gives you a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack.
More swings = more seal procs = more damage and threat

Spell Warding: All spell damage taken is reduced by 4%.
Spells cut through armor and this helps stop the pain some.

Sacred Duty: Increases your total Stamina by 3%/6%, reduces the cooldown of your Divine Shield spell by 60 sec and reduces the attack speed penalty by 50%/100%.
I figure the extra stamina is the main reason to take this.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
Usually I would consider this a good talent, but I'm thinking that a tanking paladin probably uses a low damage weapon that has +spell damage on it. If thats the case then increasing the melee damage may not be as useful as it would normally be.

Holy Shield: Increases chance to block by 30% for 10 sec and deals 155 Holy damage for each attack blocked while active. Damage caused by Holy Shield causes 35% additional threat. Each block expends a charge. 4 charges.
key paladin tanking ability. More blocks, more damage, more threat.

Improved Holy Shield: Increases damage caused by your Holy Shield by 10%/20% and increases the number of charges of your Holy Shield by 2/4.
More damage=more threat and more charges means it can be kept up easier.

Ardent Defender: When you have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 6%/12%/18%/24%/30%.
Could potentially save you if the healers get behind. Its a "things are going wrong" ability though which means that it could also not matter at all. It all depends on if you end up dead without it or not.

Weapon Expertise: Increases your weapon skill with all weapons by 2/4/6/8/10.
Everybody seems to say that weapon skill sucks right now. I don't know if I should believe them or not. Especially when the choice may be between points in this and points in 1H Spec with a low dps weapon. This might add at least some +hit which I've already discusses as being useful for seals.

Avenger's Shield: 1 sec cast/30 sec cooldown/30 yard range
Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 494 to 602 Holy damage, Dazing them and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets. Lasts 6 sec.
With the 1 second cast this can't really be used in combat. Its a range pulling option that establishes initial multi-target threat though.

Holy Talents

Improved Seal of Righteousness: Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness and Judgement of Righteousness by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
This seal is probably used alot by a tanking pally and so increasing its damage is a good thing. Its tier 2 though and so requires taking a talent below it. The talents below are less useful, but not bad

Retribution Talents

Benediction: Reduces the Mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
A tanking pally probably judges and casts seals alot. Less mana cost means the pally can hold threat longer.

Improved Judgement: Decreases the cooldown of your Judgement spell by 1/2 sec.
Judging more often means more threat = a good thing. It does use more mana though.

Improved Seal of the Crusader: Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader by 5%/10%/15%.
Crusader is probably a good initial judge seal for the holy damage increase. So improving it might not be a bad deal.

Deflection: Increases your Parry chance by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
It would help you push crushing blows off the table. Less important in 5-mans, but not a bad thing to do anyway.

Vindication: Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's Strength and Agility by 5%/10%/15% for 10 sec.
I don't know how often it procs and so its hard to judge how useful it is. It also is single target and so not as useful for multi-mob tanking. It is still a way of limiting incoming damage though and could be especially useful on boss fights where you are mainly focusing on one mob.

Eye for an Eye:All spell criticals against you cause 15%/30% of the damage taken to the caster as well. The damage caused by Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health.
It could be helpful for holding ranged caster adds. They shoot you, they get damaged returned, you gain threat on them.

Improved Retribution Aura: Increases the damage done by your Retribution Aura by 25%/50%.
In most cases I'm thinking devotion aura won't really be needed and so retribution could be the main aura. The damage from it should help hold any adds that are hitting you. So increasing that damage may not be a bad thing.

Sanctity Aura:
Increases Holy damage done by party members within 30 yards by 10%. Players may only have one Aura on them per Paladin at any one time.
I'm curious if this could be better than retribution aura. it would increase the damage done by consecrate on multi-mob pulls and it would increase your single target threat by increasing the damage of your seals and judgements. I've not done the math though to know in what cases it would be better and in what cases it would be worse. It could be somewhere you use retribution on trash and sanctity on bosses. I just don't know, but its interesting anyway.

Improved Sanctity Aura: The amount of damage caused by targets affected by Sanctity Aura is increased by 1%/2%.
2% to all damage the party does isn't a bad thing. It increases your damage/threat as well as your party's damage.

Sanctified Judgement: Gives your Judgement spell a 33%/66%/100% chance to return 50% of the mana cost of the judged seal.
I'm assuming a pally tanks seals and judges alot and so getting mana back would increase how long he could keep doing such. The question is: do fights last long enough to warrent it?



So I figure those are the interesting tanking talents that I'll be using in the builds below. Lets move right along to those builds. I see two basic paths to choose from here: 41 in protection and 33 in Protection.

41 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2
Ardent Defender Rank 5
Weapon Expertise Rank 2
Avenger's Shield Rank 1

There is a choice of 2 points in Expertise, 1H Spec, or some other talent, but otherwise it seems pretty straight forward to me. The other trees are questions though.

10/41/10: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

10 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2

Thats one way a paladin could go. It assumes you judge Crusader on a mob then cast Righteousness and judge/recast as cooldowns allow. Both seals get improved in damage and cost and judgement gets its cooldown lowered.

0/41/20: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...002200000000000

20 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Deflection Rank 3
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Vindication Rank 3
Eye for an Eye Rank 2
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2

This path assumes the same basic attack pattern, but doesn't bother to improve Righteousness. Instead it improves Retribution aura, grabs Vindication and Eye for an Eye, and picks up a little parry as well.

Which of these builds is better though? It seems like the first one would do better on single targets with improved Righteousness, but the second would do better on multi-target fights with Improved Retribution Aura and Eye for an Eye. The second one does gain some single target help from Eye for an Eye and Vindication though. So maybe the second one is more well rounded. If the first one can hold the extra mobs though, then I'm not sure it needs the added multi-target help and so might be better. I really don't know which route is better.

33 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2

You lose Ardent Defender and Avenger's Shield mainly. I'm not sold on Ardent Defender being required. Sure its nice to have and can maybe save the day sometimes, but I'd like to think that one wouldn't get in those positions in the first place. Things do go wrong though. The loss of Avenger's Shield makes pulling tougher and initial threat more of an issue, but I'm a blood elf and so mana tap helps some with pulling and hopefully initial threat will be fine anyway. So then the other trees become:

10/33/18: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...001200000000000

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

18 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Deflection Rank 2
Vindication Rank 3
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2
Eye for an Eye Rank 1

So VS the split tree 41 build you lose Ardent Defender and Avenger's Shield, but gain Vindication, Imp Retribution Aura, some parry, and 1 rank of Eye for an Eye. I'm not sure if this one is worth it or not. It greatly depends on how useful the two talents that are being given up are and I've not had access to them yet to really have a clue.

33/28: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...002200120300000

28 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Judgement Rank 2
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Deflection Rank 5
Vindication Rank 3
Improved Retribution Aura Rank 2
Eye for an Eye Rank 2
Sanctity Aura Rank 1
Improved Sanctity Aura Rank 2
Sanctified Judgement Rank 3

This one I find especially interesting. Thats not to say I think its better (I have no clue), but just that some of the options are interesting. It gains Sanctity Aura and its improvement while maintaining Improved Retribution Aura. So a pally could switch back and forth depending on the makeup of the pull. This could be entirely pointless though as one of the auras could just beat the other in all situations. I don't know enough to judge that though. The build also gains Sanctified Judgement which is the big bonus of only going 33 in protection. Since I'm assuming that a pally tank would be judging everytime the cooldown is up, getting mana back from each judge could extent how long the pally can maintain threat by quite a bit. Is it necessary though? I really don't know. It could be that a pally can last long enough anyway and so 41 in prot is better.

Anyway, those are the builds I'm toying with. Like I said at the start, my pally is only a baby. This means my actual paladin experience is very limited and thus I'm working completely theoretically. So some advice from people with actually experience would be a great help as would just general thoughts and comments.

I suppose I should also say that I am aware that there is a holy/protection build as well. I have a 70 priest already and thus I'm deliberately choosing not to give the pally any healing option. Basically I have a dps class and a healing class so the paladin is going to be my tanking class. Its all he is aiming for.

[Kevin]

I'm only going to point out stuff that I don't agree on.

Protection Talents

Precision: Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%
I hear +hit is hard to come by on tanking gear so this could be good. I figure a pally tank gets most of his threat from holy damage though so its not as good as it seems. Still, seals proc on hits that connect and so +hit does help them and so is still good.

Threat matters for heroics. The SoR proc damage matters for your threat. This talent matters. +Hit is one of the fastest ways to up threat. It's not as valuable for a paladin but it is valuable.

Anticipation: Increases your Defense skill by 4/8/12/16/20.
A solid tanking talent. The issue is that you can probably cap your +defense with items and so the points could be put to better use in other places. If you are having trouble capping your +defense though, this can help.

Being crushed matters in heroics, especially tanking them in only crafted/5 man and heroic gear since you won't have raid gear. Geting to the point where you can have 102.6% Block + dodge + parry + miss without any raid gear is possible, but not easy. 20 defense is 3.2% total avoidance (0.8% block, 0.8% dodge, 0.8% parry, 0.8% miss). Those points stay very valuable for a paladin. For a warrior who can just hit shield block and be uncrushable for the next 2 hits, not so much. But if you don't want to rely on redoubt this talent is still valuable.

Shield Specialization: Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10%/20%/30%.
Paladins block alot and so a shield absorbing more should be a good thing.

I think you get less value out of this than out of anticipation. It's not a bad talent but seen anticipation.

Spell Warding: All spell damage taken is reduced by 4%.
Spells cut through armor and this helps stop the pain some.

2 talent points to turn a 5000 damage hit into a 4800 damage hit. Not horrible but not great either.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
Usually I would consider this a good talent, but I'm thinking that a tanking paladin probably uses a low damage weapon that has +spell damage on it. If thats the case then increasing the melee damage may not be as useful as it would normally be.

You missed the change. increases all damage. That means your seal damage, your judgement damage, and I think even your consecrate damage. It used to be just the melee damage and it used to be 10%. It was skippable then. Even if it just did the weapon damage and the damage from a seal proc that is more aggro, but I think it does more than that. I recall my consecrate getting bigger when I got that talent.


Retribution Talents

Vindication: Gives the Paladin's damaging melee attacks a chance to reduce the target's Strength and Agility by 5%/10%/15% for 10 sec.
I don't know how often it procs and so its hard to judge how useful it is. It also is single target and so not as useful for multi-mob tanking. It is still a way of limiting incoming damage though and could be especially useful on boss fights where you are mainly focusing on one mob.

Most bosses are immune to it.

Eye for an Eye:All spell criticals against you cause 15%/30% of the damage taken to the caster as well. The damage caused by Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health.
It could be helpful for holding ranged caster adds. They shoot you, they get damaged returned, you gain threat on them.

Mobs can't crit spells so pointless for PvE.


Hmm if I do anymore quoting it won't work. And I should be in bed so comments on the builds themselves later.

[swirly]

You missed the change. increases all damage. That means your seal damage, your judgement damage, and I think even your consecrate damage. It used to be just the melee damage and it used to be 10%. It was skippable then. Even if it just did the weapon damage and the damage from a seal proc that is more aggro, but I think it does more than that. I recall my consecrate getting bigger when I got that talent.

Now that you meantion it, I do recall reading that a few days ago. For some reason it slipped my mind again heh.

Mobs can't crit spells so pointless for PvE.

Didn't realize that. So yeah...pointless talent.

I'll have to look at build options again with this info.

[swirly]

Being crushed matters in heroics, especially tanking them in only crafted/5 man and heroic gear since you won't have raid gear. Geting to the point where you can have 102.6% Block + dodge + parry + miss without any raid gear is possible, but not easy. 20 defense is 3.2% total avoidance (0.8% block, 0.8% dodge, 0.8% parry, 0.8% miss). Those points stay very valuable for a paladin. For a warrior who can just hit shield block and be uncrushable for the next 2 hits, not so much. But if you don't want to rely on redoubt this talent is still valuable.

Instead of shield block, a protection pally will have holy shield. It increases block rate by 30%. Its basically a slightly lower shield block rate, but a longer duration and more charges(especially with imp holy shield). So that 102.6% becomes 72.6% which is easier to maintain. Now I don't really know how hard it is to hit that point with crafter/blue gear, but it doesn't sound like you were considering holy shield and you said 102.6 was possible. Therefore I'm going to figure that 72.6 is not only possible, but easier to get. If this is true then anticipation goes back to not being as important. If its not then it becomes more important. So you'll have to let me know if you were figuring holy shield in or not and if it affects your view.

This is also why redoubt is questionable btw. If a pally can be uncrushable with just holy shield then redoubt doesn't add anything to the mix. It does help with multiple mobs since charges get ate faster. It also can help cover if you get silenced and so can't refresh holy shield right away. So its still not bad to have, but questionable.

[swirly]

So assuming that anticipation isn't necessary because of holy shield, but that one handed spec is necessary the main change to the 41 point protection tree is that the 5 points in ardent defender move there. You then basically have 4 points to divide between ardent defender, weapon expertise, and spell warding. I'm inclined to say 2 in spell warding and 2 in weapon expertise, but I could see arguements for 4 in ardent defender as well.

Vindication and Eye for an Eye being useless gets rid of the 0/41/20 build though. Thats for sure no longer worth it. So I figure the choice for 41 in protection is one of 10 in holy or 5 in deflection and 5 in ardent defender. Deflection will help gearing (especially with my not including of anticipation), but if you don't need it then it becomes a pretty clear choice of 10 in holy in my mind. So...I'm thinking the 10/41/10 build is the best for 41 protection. That would be: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000


The 33 point builds get hurt alot though. They basically have to become 36 point protection builds so as to include a maxed one handed spec (the three extra points+2 from spell warding). This kills the idea of picking up Sanctified Judgement and with the worthlessness of Vindication and Eye for an Eye also kills the split build.

So it seems to me that the 10/41/10 build meantioned above is the only one that survives. That is:

41 in Protection

Redoubt Rank 5
Toughness Rank 5
Precision Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 3
Blessing of Kings Rank 1
Improved Righteous Fury Rank 3
Reckoning Rank 5
Blessing of Sanctuary Rank 1
Spell Warding Rank 2
Sacred Duty Rank 2
Holy Shield Rank 1
Improved Holy Shield Rank 2
One Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5
Weapon Expertise Rank 2
Avenger's Shield Rank 1

10 Holy

Divine Intellect Rank 5
Improved Seal of Righteousness Rank 5

10 Retribution

Benediction Rank 5
Improved Seal of the Crusader Rank 3
Improved Judgement Rank 2

The only debate remaining seems to be one of if anticipation is required or not. Its not too hard to fit in though. Take the point out of kings, take the 2 out of spell warding, and take the two out of weapon expertise and put them in anticipation. I'm still not sold on it being necessary though.

[Sinomin]

The only debate remaining seems to be one of if anticipation is required or not. Its not too hard to fit in though. Take the point out of kings, take the 2 out of spell warding, and take the two out of weapon expertise and put them in anticipation. I'm still not sold on it being necessary though.

Damn Swirly you posted a lot of info here. Im too tired right now to respond to everything so I'll just throw a quick comment on your last points.

Anticipation is Defense SKILL, not Defense rating. That 5 points equates to 48 points of Defense Rating on your gear. IMO if you want to tank you will get this talent. After you reach uncrushable it will give you more room to stack Stamina, which will eventually be your weakest link as a Paladin tank. At level 70 you will have approximately 1500 less HP's than an equal level Warrior. The more Stamina you stack, the more valuable Sacred Duty becomes.

Block Rating and Defense Rating are the two cheapest ways to reach uncrushable. Plus approximately 19 Defense Rating is 1% pure avoidance. On a side note, being uncrushable isnt actually that important for 5 mans being the highest lvl mobs (bosses only) are 72. Stamina, AC and Block Value (not Block Rating) will eventually be your most important goal, after a certain level of avoidance and Defense Rating (490 for uncrittable).

Blessing of Kings will become, for most fights, your best tanking Blessing. Blessing of Sanctuary for leveling is one of the best talents you can get. But the 80 damage reduction is deducted before damage reducing items/talents/skills(IE Armor). So you arent reducing the final damage you take by a straight 80 damage. On hard hitting mobs, IE heroics 2-4k damage, BoS wont improve your survivability as much as BoK will. BoS really shines on AOE pulls, fast low damage hitters and/or elemental damage (like groups of Imps).

I do agree Spell Warding is not a necessity. But for a serious tank(MT) it is more damage mitigation and therefore falls into one of the most important aspects of being a tank.

I would suggest you experiment with different talent builds as you are leveling. A lot of this discussion wont really apply much till you are 70, geared and tanking the harder content. I know I respeced at least 2 million times while I was leveling. Even with all the theorycrafting and discussions I have read, I had to try some things on my own to determine what worked best for me.

Anyway, feel free to as me anything in game, if you want to know my experiences.

Edit: This is a basic "default" 41pt talent selection Paladin talents.

Personally I have a hard time living without Reckoning, but for more consistent damage/threat, 1hd Weapon Specialization wins out. The 2 points in Reckoning and 5 points in 1hd Spec are just fillers and could be used whereever you wanted (Max Reckoning, Precision, Spell Ward, etc.)

[Kevin]

Instead of shield block, a protection pally will have holy shield. It increases block rate by 30%. Its basically a slightly lower shield block rate, but a longer duration and more charges(especially with imp holy shield). So that 102.6% becomes 72.6% which is easier to maintain. Now I don't really know how hard it is to hit that point with crafter/blue gear, but it doesn't sound like you were considering holy shield and you said 102.6 was possible. Therefore I'm going to figure that 72.6 is not only possible, but easier to get. If this is true then anticipation goes back to not being as important. If its not then it becomes more important. So you'll have to let me know if you were figuring holy shield in or not and if it affects your view.

This is also why redoubt is questionable btw. If a pally can be uncrushable with just holy shield then redoubt doesn't add anything to the mix. It does help with multiple mobs since charges get ate faster. It also can help cover if you get silenced and so can't refresh holy shield right away. So its still not bad to have, but questionable.

I was counting on holy shield for that 102.6%. Warriors need to get there as well, but they get 75% from shield block. They only need 27.6% from other stuff, as you say paladins need 72.6% (actually 67.6% because you'll get the heroic badges to make holy shield get you 5% more). This is not an easy number to get to without raid gear, it can be done, but it's hard, especially if you want any +spell damage at all.

And yeah I fully aggre on redoubt. You don't plan on it being up. If you did, then you can get to uncrushable almost as easily as a warrior as you only need to get 15% more avoidance than they do. But you can't, so you now need 45% more than a warrior since holy shield is 30%, shield block is 75%

lock Rating and Defense Rating are the two cheapest ways to reach uncrushable. Plus approximately 19 Defense Rating is 1% pure avoidance. On a side note, being uncrushable isnt actually that important for 5 mans being the highest lvl mobs (bosses only) are 72. Stamina, AC and Block Value (not Block Rating) will eventually be your most important goal, after a certain level of avoidance and Defense Rating (490 for uncrittable).

Oh duh. I knew I was saying something really wrong when i was typing that up at 5 or 6 am my time and still hadn't slept yet. You are right, crushing doesn't matter. Slap the GG.

[Mavfin]

Being crushed matters in heroics, especially tanking them in only crafted/5 man and heroic gear since you won't have raid gear. Geting to the point where you can have 102.6% Block + dodge + parry + miss without any raid gear is possible, but not easy. 20 defense is 3.2% total avoidance (0.8% block, 0.8% dodge, 0.8% parry, 0.8% miss). Those points stay very valuable for a paladin. For a warrior who can just hit shield block and be uncrushable for the next 2 hits, not so much. But if you don't want to rely on redoubt this talent is still valuable.

Um, I've tanked several heroics, and never saw a 73 or ?? boss in one, so, why worry about crush? Now, in raids, yes. Crush is important.

Did I just miss seeing some +3/?? stuff in a heroic somewhere? A 72 isn't going to crush a 70.

[TheDragoon]

Here are some comments that I have come up with:

Precision: Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 1%/2%/3%
I hear +hit is hard to come by on tanking gear so this could be good. I figure a pally tank gets most of his threat from holy damage though so its not as good as it seems. Still, seals proc on hits that connect and so +hit does help them and so is still good.

This was the determination I made, as well. A large portion of paladin threat comes from spells (consecration, exorcism, judgments) or reflecting damage when attacked (holy shield, retribution aura). The extra hit would be nice, but is certainly not required. And, as you note, +hit is not really available on tanking gear.

Blessing of Kings: Places a Blessing on the friendly target, increasing total stats by 10% for 5 min. Players may only have one Blessing on them per Paladin at any one time
I figure this isn't really going to be used that much, but if you don't need anticipation then one might as well pick this up.

I actually use Kings all of the time. It is THE primier blessing for many classes (physical damage dealers, especially). In addition, I usually use this as my tanking blessing for the simple reason that paladin tanks tend to have a much lower life total than other tanks and the extra 10% stamina can make a big difference. Now that my stamina gear has gotten a bit better, however, I have pondered trying out Blessing of Sanctuary a bit more often for tanking. The damage reduction is ok (remember, it is subtracted BEFORE armor is accounted for, so you really only get 1/2 the effect, in reality) and the threat would be a small added bonus.

Reckoning: Gives you a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% chance after being hit by any damaging attack that the next 4 weapon swings within 8 sec will generate an additional attack.
More swings = more seal procs = more damage and threat

This is also the only thing that will really help out your DPS for soloing ability. When this is up, pally DPS is ok. If it isn't up, it is terrible.:)

One-Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5%.
Usually I would consider this a good talent, but I'm thinking that a tanking paladin probably uses a low damage weapon that has +spell damage on it. If thats the case then increasing the melee damage may not be as useful as it would normally be.

This applies to all damage, so it is a 5% threat increase across the board as well as a bonus to soloing ability. I think it is definitely worth taking.

Ardent Defender: When you have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 6%/12%/18%/24%/30%.
Could potentially save you if the healers get behind. Its a "things are going wrong" ability though which means that it could also not matter at all. It all depends on if you end up dead without it or not.

This is a nice abliity and I actually think it is better in 5-mans than in raids (since mobs tend to hit less hard, so they don't skip past it as easily). That said, this is completely worthless if you don't drop below 35% health, so I have tended to skimp on this for my current paladin build.

Weapon Expertise: Increases your weapon skill with all weapons by 2/4/6/8/10.
Everybody seems to say that weapon skill sucks right now. I don't know if I should believe them or not. Especially when the choice may be between points in this and points in 1H Spec with a low dps weapon. This might add at least some +hit which I've already discusses as being useful for seals.

Yeah, it really does suck. There are lots of good pally talents in the bottom of the Protection tree, so this talent doesn't get used very much.

Avenger's Shield: 1 sec cast/30 sec cooldown/30 yard range
Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 494 to 602 Holy damage, Dazing them and then jumping to additional nearby enemies. Affects 3 total targets. Lasts 6 sec.
With the 1 second cast this can't really be used in combat. Its a range pulling option that establishes initial multi-target threat though.

Personally, I love this talent. It's at its best in 5-man instances where you can use it to pull and lock down aggro instantly. One note is that, if you're not taking much damage, you can also use it during combat for added threat. :)

Improved Seal of Righteousness: Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness and Judgement of Righteousness by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
This seal is probably used alot by a tanking pally and so increasing its damage is a good thing. Its tier 2 though and so requires taking a talent below it. The talents below are less useful, but not bad

I actually opted for the talent that prevents spell push-back over this one. This isn't a bad talent, but being able to heal without push-back is amazing for a Protection/Holy hybrid build.

I would also note that Illumination is still one of the best talents out there for pally healing. If you can manage to go for a build like 20/41/0, it can change a poor healing build into a pretty good healing build.

Benediction: Reduces the Mana cost of your Judgement and Seal spells by 3%/6%/9%/12%/15%.
A tanking pally probably judges and casts seals alot. Less mana cost means the pally can hold threat longer.

This talent is a nice-to-have, in my opinion. While it is true that you are judging a lot while tanking, you get mana back for taking damage and you could also just judge wisdom on a mob if you have mana problems. If you are going for the 5% parry talent to help with becoming uncrushable, this is a nice one to pick up. Otherwise, I would tend to leave it alone.

Improved Seal of the Crusader: Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Seal of the Crusader and the Holy damage increase of your Judgement of the Crusader by 5%/10%/15%.
Crusader is probably a good initial judge seal for the holy damage increase. So improving it might not be a bad deal.

It's ok, but there are better talents out there. I also tend to judge wisdom rather than Crusader, so I wouldn't see a whole lot of benefit out of this.

----------

As far as builds go, I am a fan of either this 20/41/0 build or this 0/49/12 build. The first is a good tanking build with enough healing to do an ok job at that role, as well. The second build picks up basically all great tanking talents from the Protection tree and fleshes it out with extra mitigation and efficiency from the Retribution tree. Some points could float in the builds (especially the precision + reduced judgment cooldown talents in the second build), but those are examples of what I would be interested in playing. :)

[Warlock]

I only got my Paladin to 51 but I tended to go with Blessing of Sanctuary over Kings. I can see how that reverses for heroic and raid mobs but for the levelling instances the mitigation is nice and the threat and damage is nicer still. Shield Spike + Sanctuary + Holy Sheild on every block adds up fast. I did 40% of my groups entire damage output tanking ZF. Solo levelling by AOE was reasonably fast but dull.

[TheDragoon]

I only got my Paladin to 51 but I tended to go with Blessing of Sanctuary over Kings. I can see how that reverses for heroic and raid mobs but for the levelling instances the mitigation is nice and the threat and damage is nicer still. Shield Spike + Sanctuary + Holy Sheild on every block adds up fast. I did 40% of my groups entire damage output tanking ZF. Solo levelling by AOE was reasonably fast but dull.

In hindsight, I did tend to use Sanctuary for low level instances, as well. However, once I started reaching the Outlands instances I started swapping over to Kings to provide extra cushion for the healers. I guess the other thing about Kings is that it scales with your gear, so the better geared you are, the more effect it can potentially have. :)

[swirly]

As far as builds go, I am a fan of either this 20/41/0 build or this 0/49/12 build. The first is a good tanking build with enough healing to do an ok job at that role, as well. The second build picks up basically all great tanking talents from the Protection tree and fleshes it out with extra mitigation and efficiency from the Retribution tree. Some points could float in the builds (especially the precision + reduced judgment cooldown talents in the second build), but those are examples of what I would be interested in playing. :)

So my paladin is 41 now and I've started leaning towards the 0/49/12 build. I've noticed that I change what seals/judgements I use quite a bit and so it seems a waste to improve one when I may not use it all the time. I'm also noticing that I don't judge everytime its available so that talent is suspect, but there isn't really anything better. The only one to consider would be the walk speed talent since paladins have no intercept type skill. I may need to judge more when actually tanking instead of question though so that choice will have to wait even longer. Just thought I should update though that I am now thinking the 0/49/12 is the way to go.

[Taelas]

Did I just miss seeing some +3/?? stuff in a heroic somewhere? A 72 isn't going to crush a 70.

As far as I know, any mob that is higher level than you has a chance to crush. 5% per level.

There are no mobs higher than 72 in heroics.

[Mavfin]

As far as I know, any mob that is higher level than you has a chance to crush. 5% per level.

There are no mobs higher than 72 in heroics.

As far as I know, it takes a +3 or ?? to crush. I've never seen a crush from a 72 vs a 70, or a 62 vs a 60 in my raid-tanking time.

[Kevin]

As far as I know, it takes a +3 or ?? to crush. I've never seen a crush from a 72 vs a 70, or a 62 vs a 60 in my raid-tanking time.

Well defense skill does matter a bit for crushing blows, but if you are capped for you level (i.e at 350 for L70 or 345 for L69) the mob does need to be +3. The L72 Hellfire Warders in Magtheridon's Lair can crush as well but folks think they don't have a base weapon skill, that they actually have a bit higher.

Anyway a good summary of crushing blows can be found Here the rest of their hosted articles are pretty solid as well.


But like I mentioned earlier in the thread I was way too tired and wasn't thinking when I was talking about crushing blows.

[Taelas]

As far as I know, it takes a +3 or ?? to crush. I've never seen a crush from a 72 vs a 70, or a 62 vs a 60 in my raid-tanking time.

Right. I had forgotten the maximized Defense thing.

Basically, crush works with weapon skill versus Defense skill.

So any mob with X weapon skill more than your (less than maximized) Defense skill has an X% chance of crushing, and only mobs that are 3 levels or more can crush players with maximized Defense.

[swirly]

Alright so I'm aiming for 0/49/12 and my sights have moved some towards figuring out what gear to aim for. I could make a new thread to discuss that, but I kind of like all the info being in one thread. The lounge has a history of threads getting sidetracked anyway so who am I to go against tradition.

I found a list of tanking gear and went through and did a quick pick of what jumped out at me as choices I might make. So I'm looking for thoughts on the choices I made, suggestions for alternatives if better options exist, etc etc. I'm mainly aiming for normal 5-man drops currently. Profession items that are easily attainable can be considered as well. Raid drops and heroic drops aren't being considered yet. The end goal will be 5-man normal and heroic tanking so uncrushable isn't really a factor though having that ability never hurts in case I do feel like raiding sometime (doubtful, but you never know).

Helm: Helm of the Righteous
Shoulder: Spaulders of the Righteous
Chest: Jade-Skull Breastplate
Wrist: Sha'tari Wrought Armguards
Hands: Gauntlets of the Chosen
Waist: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard
Legs: Legplates of the Righteous
Feet: Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves
Shield: Platinum Shield of the Valorous
Weapon: Continuum Blade

Again, this is a very early list and so I'm sure there are some things I have wrong in it. So some advice would be much appreciated. Also of note is that the gloves require scryers rep and so which rep path is better also needs to be decided. I've not ran the numbers on these items either so I have no clue how they stand in regard to crit immune, uncrushable, and anything else that needs calculated.

edit: had a heroic drop for wrists, swapped it our for a non-heroic option

[Tuftears]

Cut-and-paste from my post elsewhere:

Head:

BOE Crafted Epic:
Oathkeeper's Helm: +40 sta, +22 int, +15 def, +26 damage/healing, +9 mana/5, red/yellow/blue sockets
- rare world drop plans

Instance Drop:
Helm of the Righteous: +30 sta, +20 int, +21 def, +23 damage/healing, +6 mana/5, yellow/meta
- normal Mechanar, Pathaleon the Calculator

Quest Reward:
X-52 Technician's Helm: +16 str, +36 sta, +16 int, +16 defense, +36 damage/heali
ng, +6 mana/5
- Netherstorm, Back to the Chief

Shoulders:

Instance Drop:
Spaulders of the Righteous: +22 sta, +22 int, +20 def, +15 damage/healing, red/blue
- normal Botanica, Laj

Quest Reward:
Kaylaan's Spaulders: +27 sta, +30 damage/healing, +18 defense
- Netherstorm, Aldor No More (Aldor only)

Chest:

Instance Drop:
Breastplate of the Righteous: +30 sta, +28 int, +20 defense, +23 damage/healing, red/yellow/blue
- normal Steamvaults, Warlord Kalithresh

Quest Reward:
Lost Chestplate of the Reverent: +22 sta, +24 int, +21 defense, +29 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Wanted: Annihilator Servo!

Belt:

BOE Crafted Epic:
Belt of the Guardian: +48 sta, +13 int, +19 defense, +21 damage/healing, +33 block value
- SSC/The Eye plan, requires Nether Vortexes

Quest Reward:
Lightwarden's Girdle: +30 sta, +14 int, +23 defense, +28 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Deathblow to the Legion

Quest Reward:
Starcaller's Plated Belt: +30 sta, +16 int, +12 defense, +23 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Arconus the Insatiable

Bracers:

Heroic Instance Drop:
Bracers of Dignity: +30 sta, +12 int, +21 defense, +19 damage/healing
- Heroic Arcatraz, Harbinger Skyriss

Quest Reward:
Thadell's Bracers: +21 sta, +12 int, +9 defense, +16 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, When the Cows Come Home

Gloves:

Instance Drop:
Gauntlets of the Righteous: +22 sta, +20 int, +19 defense, +21 damage/healing, +7 mana/5
- normal Shattered Halls, Warchief Kargath Bladefist

Quest Reward:
Spiritualist's Gauntlets: +27 sta, +17 defense, +20 damage/healing, +5 mana/5
- Netherstorm, A Fate Worse Than Death

Legs:

Instance Drop:
Legplates of the Righteous: +27 sta, +24 int, +26 defense, +28 damage/healing, +10 mana/5
- normal Black Morass, Aeonus

Kirin'Var Defender's Chausses: +27 sta, +18 int, +19 defense, +30 damage/healing, +7 mana/5
- Netherstorm, Sigil of Krasus (Kirin'Var)

Boots:

BOP Crafted Epic: (BOE recipe)
Boots of the Protector: +48 sta, +22 int, +26 defense, +17 shield block rating, +27 damage/healing
- recipe drops in SSC/TK and is tradable

Heroic Instance Drop:
Boots of the Righteous Path: +34 sta, +26 int, +23 defense, +26 damage/healing
- heroic Shattered Halls, Warchief Kargath Bladefist, or heroic Arcatraz, Harbinger Skyriss

Heroic Instance Drop:
Boots of Righteous Fortitude: +37 sta, +14 int, +19 defense, +29 damage/healing
- heroic Sethekk Hall, Anzu

Starcaller's Plated Stompers: +21 sta, +14 int, +13 defense, +16 damage/healing
- Netherstorm, Escape from the Staging Grounds

Using Quest Rewards Only:

Total available from quest rewards alone:
+16 str, +241 sta, +114 int, +153 defense, +228 damage/healing, 18 mana/5 sec

Using Quest + Normal Instance Drops:

(essentially most of the Righteous set)

Total available from quest rewards + normal instance drops:
+203 sta, +154 int, +151 defense, +170 damage/healing, 23 mana/5 sec
2x red, 2x yellow, 2x blue, meta

Assuming blues are +12 stamina, yellows are enduring talasites (+4 def, +6 stamina), reds are veiled noble topazes (+4 spell hit, +5 damage), and the meta is Powerful Earthstorm Diamond (18 sta, 5% stun resist), and adding in socket bonuses:

Total with gems:
+257 sta, +158 int, +162 defense, +180 damage/healing, 25 mana/5 sec, 5% stun resist

Conclusion:

This is interesting, because it shows you can get a paladin to crit-immune state just on quest rewards and a little help from one slot, leaving you rings, trinkets, necklace, and weapon/shield free for spell damage and such, and you get a decent amount of +damage to help you hold aggro, instead of useless (to a tanking paladin) strength.

You could probably replace the talasites with different yellow gems, once you get an Aldor Exalted shoulder enchant.

[Kevin]

From my tanking lately with Kam. The more tanking I do in normal 5 mans the more stam and avoidance I take off for more hit, crit and str for aggro.

The people you are going to be tanking for will be experienced folks on alts or a new player on a main who probably has a bit a raid gear already and is looking to help out or fill in holes. I have to remind myself to not waste rage on shield block because I don't need the mit and the 10 rage is better spent on generating aggro (and revenge is pretty much still lit up all the time). I'm a SB spammer from my old raid tanking days and from the days where when I'm soloing that I never want to use a bandage or eat food (in which case sitting in def and spamming shield block means I take pretty much zero damage though I only do like 170 DPS).

So get crit immune and then stack spell damage. Of course the issues of avoiding too much damage hurting aggro generation that exist for a warrior don't exist for a paladin. So maybe it's not as bad.

Don't rule out the felsteel crafted stuff either. They have very high levels of defense rating and armor to up your mit and keep you at the def needed for crit immune (485 def for normals).

Take the gloves for example vs your Scryer rep ones. You get 215 armor, lose 3 stam and 15 agi (the agi not of high value to you either) and 10 def rating. But you'll have 2 sockets that you can use to get more stam or spell damage or make up the defense if you want it. if you are at 485 def you can put spell damage gems in there. There are crafters in the guild that can do the felsteel for you (Conc and Geld can do the helm and gloves I think and Tigo (yes o, not a) can do the legs)

Tigo can also craft the Helm of the Stalwart Defender. Which is a ton of stam. The resilience isn't the best use of item budget but if I did the math right it does mean you need 15 defense less to be crit immune since it should give you .6% crit reduction. The stam levels on it are huge as is the armor, and you get 3 sockets to tweak it for whatever you want.


Again none of this is specifics of do this over that. But it's just some stuff to keep in mind as possibilities.

You're likely tanking for groups that will highly value speed. I often tank 3+ mobs on Kam even when I have the CC because it's just faster and the damage I take isn't going to be an issue. If you can get get enough AoE aggro down (high spell damage so a single consecrate + retribution aura + the blocks off holy shield blocks and then the swings with SoR up being enough aggro, not sure if that will be doable) that should keep your down time for needing to refill the mana shorter (should probably only need a drink if other folks need a drink) which is good. Since you'll likely never tank something with a fully level/gear appropriate group (the alts and new mains will have crafted gear and twinked AH items and drops that generally aren't available to folks the first times they hit those places) you'll generally have way more DPS and healing than the instance needs. Just something to color your thoughts.

[swirly]

The people you are going to be tanking for will be experienced folks on alts or a new player on a main who probably has a bit a raid gear already and is looking to help out or fill in holes.

Except I might try doing some PUGs as well. My experience with sophie (my priest for those who don't know) is that groups often fill up on healers before they fill up on tanks. So I do kind of have a slight plan of watching the LFG channel for groups to tank things for.

Your point is right though, a guild normal instance run is a cakewalk. Quite often the tank isn't even really necessary since things die so fast anyway and there is often tons of CC. So in those types of runs gearing is either not important or different choices can be made. I guess what I'm more asking though is what specific items I should be aiming to get so that when I hit revered with places I will be able to hold up inside of a heroic. It'll give me a guideline of what instances I need to prioritize for what drops, what reps to build, etc etc.