Reinventing Durambar

[Concillian]

Imp. Demo Shout is probably better than Unbridled Wrath for an OT/5-man position.

Piercing howl is pretty awesome, consider picking it up if you have a spare point.

Imp. Cleave is kinda neat, but not a big favorite of mine. Up to you, though, depending on how much you use it.

Imp. Intercept is an interesting choice... I've always considered that a PvP talent, and not of much use for PvE, especially with the new Intervene.

Imp. Bloodrage is nice and all, but if you're low gear and only part protection, you need all the defense points you can get. I'd take 2 pts of anticipation over imp. bloodrage, to help get up to 490 defense without sacrificing too much else.

I think Tal is right, 5 pts. in deflection is stronger than 10% armour from items. YMMV, though.

Unbridled wrath is some rage in combat, in general you might need this rage until you are well geared then you won't. I'd keep it for now.

Imp. Cleave is not something you really want unless you are EXTREMELY well geared. You won't have the rage for cleaves much until then.

Intercept is mostly a PvP talent, it's useful on some bosses though (prince). Most of those bosses also have 30 second timers on pushbacks so it's not critical.

Bloodrage vs. anticipation is a toss up, initial aggro can be a problem for a non-shield slam tank. So I tend to favor it over anticipation.

Toughness vs. deflection: this is an effective health vs. avoidance scenario. toughness is better for bosses hands down. Most issues on bosses are sudden tank death (STD) not OOM situations. deflection doesn't help much with STD (1 in 20 times it will). Toughness is consistent insurance in the battle against catching an STD.

It's kind of a preference thing. However, most raid OTs will generally be in slightly less spiky damage situations, while MTs will usually be the STD issue. (example is Gruul, Hateful isn't going to cause STD on the OT until it gets to 1 shot range. Toughness extends slightly where '1 shot range is' but avoidance is a significant benefit here because you have to have a strat where you don't get into 1 shot range in the first place).

[Concillian]

K, thanks for all the input. one question though,

is the 2 pts in Imp Bezerker rage needed/usefull. i havnt used Bezerker hardly ever, is it something that as an OT it'd be good to use or so so, and could hte 2 pts be spent better someplace else?

Berserker rage is of questionable use. In general you'll probably have enough rage for the most beneficial rage --> damage skill (bloodthirst) provided you have decent gear and enchants. I tend to favor imp execute, because it's a really huge DPS adder once you get to 19% (though useless before that), plus it's MUCH less stat dependent than other talents and skills, so it's an ideal benefit for someone who might be in a mix of tank and DPS gear, or executing in tanking gear.

Personally I like a few build options:
DPS leaning:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVV0VgxoVuVocEzoh

Max threat tanking leaning:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVV0VLxoVzZcEpoI000x

Max damage reduction tanking leaning:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVf0VLxoVzZcytoh

[Artega]

I don't know how this build would be viable in a raid setting. You're lacking multiple crucial talents for adequate Fury DPS, and you're lacking critical deep-tree Protection talents for adequate tanking (depends on what you're tanking, naturally.) If you're talking about 5-mans and Heroics, then you don't even need Protection to do the job, which would make it more efficient to be purely Fury or purely Protection.

And if you're DPSing in Battle Stance, well... :whistling:

[Concillian]

I don't know how this build would be viable in a raid setting. You're lacking multiple crucial talents for adequate Fury DPS, and you're lacking critical deep-tree Protection talents for adequate tanking (depends on what you're tanking, naturally.)

You get 95% of the fury DPS from just the Fury tree. Look up the Armory for Wimpy on Terenas. Lastnight he was #3 on damage for Lurker Below, but his DPS talents stop at 43 Fury (rest is 14 prot / 4 arms). He has MTd parts of kara, though never tanked more than trash in 25 mans (that I am aware of)

You can DPS quite respectibly with 41 - 43 points Fury as your only DPS talent points. Impale and deep wounds are both rather marginal DPS increases for a full Fury DPS build.

[Taelas]

Indeed. Deep Wounds is, at a casual glance, a nice talent -- but in reality, it doesn't work like that.

It takes 3 seconds for DW to do its first damage tick. If you crit between ticks, it resets the debuff. This means you do not get the full 40% extra damage per crit. At all. (This also means it gets worse the more crit% you have.)

Impale is a good talent, though. Not a huge bonus, but still nice.

[Concillian]

Indeed. Deep Wounds is, at a casual glance, a nice talent -- but in reality, it doesn't work like that.

It takes 3 seconds for DW to do its first damage tick. If you crit between ticks, it resets the debuff. This means you do not get the full 40% extra damage per crit. At all. (This also means it gets worse the more crit% you have.)

Impale is a good talent, though. Not a huge bonus, but still nice.

Strange that you think Impale is better than Deep wounds because everytime I closely analyze my WWS logs on Gruul / Lurker / whatever Deep wounds is clearly quite significantly more damage than impale. Yes I'm 2H now, but even when I look at Johnybeef (our 44F / 17A warrior) Deep Wounds is equal or better than Impale for him. The two combined usually total around 5% total damage increase with about 2% coming from impale and 3% from deep wounds. For myself as 2H it's more like 5-8% from deep wounds (less overwriting, larger ticks) and ~2% for Impale.

Neither is HUGE, but both add damage. But in reality the arms points are 17 talent points for just these two talents plus a bunch of misc. junk that you won't use (not enough threat margin for HS, shouldn't be parrying, TC maybe but how often is a DPS warrior in battle stance? Anger management a small rage boost, but not huge)

[WimpySmurf]

You get 95% of the fury DPS from just the Fury tree. Look up the Armory for Wimpy on Terenas. Lastnight he was #3 on damage for Lurker Below, but his DPS talents stop at 43 Fury (rest is 14 prot / 4 arms). He has MTd parts of kara, though never tanked more than trash in 25 mans (that I am aware of)

You can DPS quite respectibly with 41 - 43 points Fury as your only DPS talent points. Impale and deep wounds are both rather marginal DPS increases for a full Fury DPS build.

I've tanked Attumen, Moroes, Tinhead in Kara, could probably handle just about any of the bosses except Prince & Nightbane. My tank gear is also pretty lacking too, KD, Battlescar, Vambraces & Gauntlets of Maiden are the epics, rest are blues which are mainly quest rewards.


On the Lurker kill I was also in the MT group for almost the entire fight (moved myself near end), I ended up with grand total 1 WF proc.



-WimpySmurf

[Taelas]

Strange that you think Impale is better than Deep wounds because everytime I closely analyze my WWS logs on Gruul / Lurker / whatever Deep wounds is clearly quite significantly more damage than impale. Yes I'm 2H now, but even when I look at Johnybeef (our 44F / 17A warrior) Deep Wounds is equal or better than Impale for him. The two combined usually total around 5% total damage increase with about 2% coming from impale and 3% from deep wounds. For myself as 2H it's more like 5-8% from deep wounds (less overwriting, larger ticks) and ~2% for Impale.

Neither is HUGE, but both add damage. But in reality the arms points are 17 talent points for just these two talents plus a bunch of misc. junk that you won't use (not enough threat margin for HS, shouldn't be parrying, TC maybe but how often is a DPS warrior in battle stance? Anger management a small rage boost, but not huge)

I honestly haven't done the math, but at least Impale doesn't try to be more than it is.

What's especially frustrating about this is that mages have almost the exact same functionality in Ignite -- except it stacks.