Castro Dead

[Munkay]

And you know my position. I know that the thread was posted as just the notification of a fact or rumour, but I have been around here long enough that many people find it amusing to continue saying how bad some countries are. I think that (if you are American) discussing about how bad Castro is, him being leader of 'an enemy state', knowing that your governments pays journalists in Miami and Cuba to write what it (your government) wants so knowing that you will have no correct information, and that this same country suffers from boycots imposed by your country, just does not make sense. I mean you might be right, the things that are said about Cuba might be true, but to put it nicely, the source is not very reliable.

You're right, I thought I noticed a slant when I was reading my daily issue of Pravda :whistling:

First off, why are you putting 'enemy state' in scare quotes? In case you forgot about the Cuban Missle Crisis in the 60's, read up about it here. There has been a long history of slights back and forth between the US and Cuba. It's no secret to Americans. To imply our general knowledge of Cuba is slanted, or historically inaccurate, is absolutely absurd. You say our sources are not reliable, justifying it by saying the US Government itself is paying journalists in Miami to write stories in Cuba?

Wow :lol:

Cheers,

Munk

[eppie]

You're right, I thought I noticed a slant when I was reading my daily issue of Pravda :whistling:

First off, why are you putting 'enemy state' in scare quotes? In case you forgot about the Cuban Missle Crisis in the 60's, read up about it here. There has been a long history of slights back and forth between the US and Cuba. It's no secret to Americans. To imply our general knowledge of Cuba is slanted, or historically inaccurate, is absolutely absurd. You say our sources are not reliable, justifying it by saying the US Government itself is paying journalists in Miami to write stories in Cuba?

Wow :lol:

Cheers,

Munk

Miami and Cuba. I believe that story (about a year ago if I'm correct) has also been published in US newspapers, so I don't get your surprise.


Slights back and forward??? What do you mean with this. It is like group of 15 10 year olds beating up a 5 year old in a playground.

You know it and I know it, if there was only a small thing that Cuba could do to threaten the US it would already have been invaded 5 times over.
The missile crisis is anyway more a problem between the USSR and the US or not?

The only thing is here that the US rather has right wing extremist governments that torture socialists in the Caribbean and south America. Castro and Chavez' only mistake is that they don't want to cooperate with the US under their rules. They don't present the slightest form of danger.
To bring back the interesting point about Miami. I think US minded Cubans in Miami are accountable for many more murders of US citizens than Castro's Cubans.


Come on I know the problems especially in the cold war, Cuba was an enemy. But please let some politician step up who is not a childish whiner and just shake hands with Castro.....that is if he is not dead of course.

[Archon_Wing]

The same as plastic shoes have.

But if you find it all right to complain about a country you (or me) haven't been to (or maybe you went once to lie on the beach) whereas I cannot post things about a country that I have been to many times, than I will stop now.

I don't really see why you having been to a certain country is relevant in this case, especially considering the fact that while you've been to a certain country many times, time and again your posts have proven that you really have little to no idea of what you're talking about beyond your own narrow perspective. But it's not bias when it comes from you since you have access to magically unbiased sources.

And while certainly Castro is not the great Satan, it's not hard to see why some people don't like the idea of a dictatorship. So we don't really need this "oh nos they be badmouthing Castro" when Cuba and Castro, as well as other countries can clearly defend themselves from petty remarks. If U.S.lurkers were talking about how great the U.S. was and horrible other countries was, then you'd have a case. But you don't, and the straw man is about to sue you for harassment. So take that in mind when you get not-so-nice responses.

[Archon_Wing]

Eppie, what the hell does that have to do with anything in this thread?

Oh, wait, it doesn't. You're just baiting people into an argument for no reason. Again.

It's just a bad joke; I wouldn't really take it seriously. The link is funny though, so you may as well watch it in detatchment to this thread.

[wundergore]

Miami and Cuba. I believe that story (about a year ago if I'm correct) has also been published in US newspapers, so I don't get your surprise.
Slights back and forward??? What do you mean with this. It is like group of 15 10 year olds beating up a 5 year old in a playground.

You know it and I know it, if there was only a small thing that Cuba could do to threaten the US it would already have been invaded 5 times over.
The missile crisis is anyway more a problem between the USSR and the US or not?

The only thing is here that the US rather has right wing extremist governments that torture socialists in the Caribbean and south America. Castro and Chavez' only mistake is that they don't want to cooperate with the US under their rules. They don't present the slightest form of danger.
To bring back the interesting point about Miami. I think US minded Cubans in Miami are accountable for many more murders of US citizens than Castro's Cubans.
Come on I know the problems especially in the cold war, Cuba was an enemy. But please let some politician step up who is not a childish whiner and just shake hands with Castro.....that is if he is not dead of course.

Just once, I would like to see a post from you where you don't bash the US (either directly or indirectly). Somehow, you always manage to throw in a little dig. You constant (stuipid) digs and emotion driven cheap shots undermine any legitimate points you might make. Most of the time, in my opinion, you come across as a rabid, foaming at the mouth anti-American piece of Eurotrash.

If you want people to at least pay a modicum of attention to what you have to say, you might want to tone that down. Or not.

Your post above is full of so many ramblings and bad facts, it's not even funny.

[eppie]

I don't really see why you having been to a certain country is relevant in this case, especially considering the fact that while you've been to a certain country many times, time and again your posts have proven that you really have little to no idea of what you're talking about beyond your own narrow perspective. But it's not bias when it comes from you since you have access to magically unbiased sources.

And while certainly Castro is not the great Satan, it's not hard to see why some people don't like the idea of a dictatorship. So we don't really need this "oh nos they be badmouthing Castro" when Cuba and Castro, as well as other countries can clearly defend themselves from petty remarks. If U.S.lurkers were talking about how great the U.S. was and horrible other countries was, then you'd have a case. But you don't, and the straw man is about to sue you for harassment. So take that in mind when you get not-so-nice responses.

I have no problems with not-so-nice responses. I realize I step on some toes but am mature enough to deal with all responses.
I just used the 'never have been to a country' to point at a in my opinion wrong way of thinking.

The bias thing: if I am living in a right wing country and all I see is right wing news (like in Holland, Italy or now the UK) I can be sure that the media are biased. Just as in the cold war most Russians hated Americans and most Americans hated the Russians.......turns out you are both normal people!!!! This is the annoying thing I want to point at.
And Cuba is able to withstand some criticism from some lurkers but not an air strike by some moron in the white house.


eppie

ps in Cuba you can at least drink a beer on the street.:);)

[eppie]

It's just a bad joke; I wouldn't really take it seriously. The link is funny though, so you may as well watch it in detatchment to this thread.

Indeed, thank you for the response. I should have stated it like that.

[eppie]

Just once, I would like to see a post from you where you don't bash the US (either directly or indirectly).

I was writing a long response to your reaction and then deleted it again. Because if you think that I am America bashing, I don't think it makes much sense for me to explain myself better.

I know that I don't come over as nice and eloquent most of the times, but because in the end I have been proven right by history (regarding most of the Bush related things, you know those things that you confuse with America Bashing) I don't see any sense in stopping trying to ruffle some feathers.

If the next topic will be the war in Chechnya and people start just using Russian state media as source for arguments I will also oppose.

[wundergore]

I know that I don't come over as nice and eloquent most of the times, but because in the end I have been proven right by history (regarding most of the Bush related things, you know those things that you confuse with America Bashing) I don't see any sense in stopping trying to ruffle some feathers.

If the next topic will be the war in Chechnya and people start just using Russian state media as source for arguments I will also oppose.

"The only thing is here that the US rather has right wing extremist governments that torture socialists in the Caribbean and south America."

Forgive my lack of quote tags, I suck at the internet.....

That is what you wrote in a previous post. How is that not (directly or indirectly) bashing the U.S.? I will grant you that the U.S. government is far from perfect, and our current President is not the sharpest tool in the box. But it's definately not a "right wing extremist", which you would understand if you looked a little deeper than what gets reported on CNN or whatever news media outlet you use.

When you get called on crap like this you immediately throw up more un-substantiated facts (see your quote about being "proven right by history regarding Bush related things"), and diverting to another spurious topic.

I understand you have a right to your own opinions. But the way you continually bash the U.S. has gotten very tiresome. Quite frankly, I'm effing sick of it.

Look at this way: how would you feel if I took shots at your country/leadership in every post I made on this site? Assuming I was a prolific a poster as you are?

Whatever. I'm done with this, it's not like you will understand anyway.

Regards.
W<

[Munkay]

Eppie, I have no idea where you learned your history from. Nor do I know where you get your sources from. Your view on history is... to put it nicely, rather idealized. Although it's clear you have a poor opinion of education in America (or is that just of Americans in general?), we do learn enough to know international politics is a very complex entity. To try to boil it down to just one answer is absurd...

World history in the last 50 years isn't just 'the big bad US bullying around poor countries that didn't do anything wrong'.

But that's a notion I don't think you're ever going to give up on.

I for one, give up on trying to argue that out of you.

Cheers,

Munk

[Lissa]

Eppie, I suggest you read that link. Let me also note some other things that may not be covered there that came out in the last few years by former KGB officers and Castro himself. The strategic missiles being moved to Cuba were to be under Soviet control, but what is not as well known is that there were also tactical missiles (range enough to hit Florida) that were under Castro's control and Castro admited that if the US had invaded over the missile crisis, Castro would use those tactical nukes thereby setting of World War 3. You should read up on those days in October and what almost happened as none of us would be here today if cooler heads hadn't prevailed.

[Archon_Wing]

I have no problems with not-so-nice responses. I realize I step on some toes but am mature enough to deal with all responses.
I just used the 'never have been to a country' to point at a in my opinion wrong way of thinking.

The bias thing: if I am living in a right wing country and all I see is right wing news (like in Holland, Italy or now the UK) I can be sure that the media are biased. Just as in the cold war most Russians hated Americans and most Americans hated the Russians.......turns out you are both normal people!!!! This is the annoying thing I want to point at.
And Cuba is able to withstand some criticism from some lurkers but not an air strike by some moron in the white house.


eppie

ps in Cuba you can at least drink a beer on the street.:);)

Surely the United States has done a lot of wrong, but why does it make the fact that Cuba is being run by a dictatorship any better? If people criticize Bush as well as Castro, then what is the problem? And it's obvious the disdain goes for the government, not the people.

So it's ok to reject all sources from a certain country just because their political views are not as "left-wing" is yours? Which countries are left wing enough? Or is only Socialist propaganda acceptable? Oh wait, judging by your wonderful post here, I guess so:

You know it and I know it, if there was only a small thing that Cuba could do to threaten the US it would already have been invaded 5 times over.
The missile crisis is anyway more a problem between the USSR and the US or not?

The only thing is here that the US rather has right wing extremist governments that torture socialists in the Caribbean and south America. Castro and Chavez' only mistake is that they don't want to cooperate with the US under their rules. They don't present the slightest form of danger.
To bring back the interesting point about Miami. I think US minded Cubans in Miami are accountable for many more murders of US citizens than Castro's Cubans.

Clearly the U.S. is no innocent player, as it helped create many dictatorships in the area, but your description of poor socialists being tortured is simply funny (oh nos they are so innocent too-- but wait, it takes two to tango) and demonstrates your own bias.

To claim objectivity is to claim that your crap does not smell while everyone else's does.

Edit.... some mistakes

[Jester]

The last sentence in bold surely shows objectivity and how informed you are. Most definitely.

The sentence in question being: "I think US minded Cubans in Miami are accountable for many more murders of US citizens than Castro's Cubans."

How many US citizens have been murdered by "Castro's Cubans" during the reign of Fidel? How many by the Miami exiles? I rather doubt the first number is larger than the second, although that likely doesn't mean much politically.

Most murders by the Miami exiles, I suspect, are simply the ordinary kind that every similiarly-sized group commits. However, unlike such murders in Cuba, by ordinary Cubans, they are commited against US citizens. Not many of those in Cuba these days.

Not that I think Eppie is correct on this matter generally. But I'm not sure that's the sentence that demonstrates he is biased.

-Jester

[Archon_Wing]

Not that I think Eppie is correct on this matter generally. But I'm not sure that's the sentence that demonstrates he is biased.

-Jester

This is correct; I have edited my post to reflect this. Yes, I can make mistakes.;)

[eppie]

To claim objectivity is to claim that your crap does not smell while everyone else's does.

Edit.... some mistakes

My main point was that I think it does not make a lot of sense to hear about the opinion of a US citizen about an enemy state. I will not say Cuba is a paradise and that Castro has done nothing wrong or that the US is the devil, there are just some things are a bit useless to mention.
And if somebody can not understand that US media might give a slightly subjective view on Cuba, I will mention that.

If I was wrong about the paid journalists in Havana, or the fact that most countries in the Caribbean are of worse than Cuba, and they are not even boycotted than I would like to hear that.
As an example take the dutch antilles. They are completely unable to govern themselves, and the dutch are not helping as well.
Remember freedom is only very nice for those who can pay for it.

[Munkay]

I will not say Cuba is a paradise and that Castro has done nothing wrong or that the US is the devil, there are just some things are a bit useless to mention.

Castro and Chavez' only mistake is that they don't want to cooperate with the US under their rules.

Which one is it Eppie? Do you understand that your 'main point' fluctuates, yet there still seems to remain a disdain for the 'American viewpoint'?

Cheers,

Munk

[Tal]

Which one is it Eppie? Do you understand that your 'main point' fluctuates, yet there still seems to remain a disdain for the 'American viewpoint'?

Cheers,

Munk

Give Eppie a break Munkay - its hard to keep your point straight when your only purpose is to troll.

[wundergore]

My main point was that I think it does not make a lot of sense to hear about the opinion of a US citizen about an enemy state.

I can't help myself. I know I'll regret this, but....

Nah, feck it. It's not worth the headache. His head is too far up in the clouds for it matter anyway.

[Archon_Wing]

My main point was that I think it does not make a lot of sense to hear about the opinion of a US citizen about an enemy state.

The state does not speak for everyone at times. Not all Americans think the same way towards Cuba. Americans are able to access news sources from outside the country.

But generalizations by country are cool. After all, nobody in mainland China would know about censorship. And certainly everyone in the Muslim world thinks that America is the great satan. Therefore, I don't need to hear opinions from those people because I already know what they think.

[Archon_Wing]

Give Eppie a break Munkay - its hard to keep your point straight when your only purpose is to troll.

Bah, only a n00b troll would have that kind of problem at all. A good troll says as little as possible in order to slowly rotate around his points and eventually change the topic.:P<<-- This post needs a smiley! My recent posts haven't have them like they usually do so people might think I am being even more caustic than usual.

But troll or not, it really doesn't matter. Certainly he's not the only one that espouses these views. The goal of a discussion for these things is hardly to convince the other side but to bring all the relevant points to the table and let the audience decide for themselves.

But of course, stupidity and ignorance lives well in the country I reside in, just like any other place with people in it.