Hellgate:London

[TheDragoon]

Basically none of the complaints that you wrote would be solved by subscribing. Therefore, your conclusion of it being "crippled" if you don't subscribe makes no sense given your arguments... it sounds more like you just don't like the game. As such, I suggest not buying it. ;)

Personally, I am playing the game with a non-subscribed version and having a blast at it. I might subscribe later, but at the moment I'm not really feeling a need to do so.

[Xiuhcoatl]

Basically none of the complaints that you wrote would be solved by subscribing. Therefore, your conclusion of it being "crippled" if you don't subscribe makes no sense given your arguments...

If I have to explain why your statement is incorrect then you did not comprehend what i wrote.

[vor_lord]

My main complaint is that to get more storage space I would have to buy a monthly subscription. This is very wrong in a game that spams your inventory with useless garbage.

only 3 character creation slots further cripples Hellgate for those who want to experiment with different character classes and skill specializations

Maybe many of Xiuhcoatl's other objections are unrelated to having a subscription or not, but...

I have to agree with him. 3 character slots = crippled in a game of this sort. The whole beauty of DII (which is being compared in this thread with the nonsubscribed version of HGL) was about lots and lots of experimentation. Odd combos of special items (where would I put them?), and how to find a build that could make use of them.

[TheDragoon]

If I have to explain why your statement is incorrect then you did not comprehend what i wrote.

Here's a quick rundown of your complaints by paragraph:
1. Inventory gets filled while clearing a dungeon so you have to play with your inventory at a time when monsters can attack you (and you can't fight back until you close the inventory screen).
2. Not enough stash space. Can't transfer items without a friend.
3. Memory leak. Uninspired scenery. Poorly developed skills. Mysterious stat effects. Only 3 character slots and don't want to delete characters.]
4. Won't buy without subscribing.

I have italicized the complaints that the subscription might help with, somewhat. However, you only get a bit more stash space and a few more character slots. I almost guarantee you that you would have those same complaints about inventory space even with an expanded stash and you would still hit the cap of 12 characters rather easily given the plethora of different ways to build characters, let alone the added game modes of elite and hardcore that a subscription would open up.

Note that all of the other complaints (most of which I think would be a much bigger deal to me, if I saw things as you do) about dealing with inventory mid-dungeon, the memory leak, the inability to transfer items, poorly developed skills and stats and uninspired scenery will not change with a subscription.

I will agree with you and vor_lord that I would really prefer more character slots in a game like this (3, or even 12, is not many) but since the majority of your complaints center on (more important) things that essentially make up the framework of the game (skills, inventory, areas/monsters), I stand by my comment that it really sounds like you do not enjoy the game itself and that the subscription isn't going to help you have fun with it.

[Roland]

you can not select the items you want to pick up; the game does it for you when you hit "F" and it will fill your inventory with so much crap that I spend half my time dealing with that trash.

Actually, this is incorrect. You target the items with a general movement of the mouse, by pointing your body towards them, and then by pressing the F button you acquire the "highlighted" item. While multiple items stacked very close to one another will be difficult to cherry pick, this generally only occurs with Boss monsters. The rest of the time you should have no trouble choosing what to pick up and what to ignore, with but a simple mouse gesture of mere centimeters.

As to the rest of your complaints, as The Dragoon stated, it seems you simply don't like the game. Fair enough. Don't purchase it. I myself have pre-ordered and paid for a Collector's Edition (I'm a sucker for such things), which I have yet to receive, so although I am "stuck" still beta testing the game, instead of enjoying it fully (with a planned subscription, I might add), I found enough in the game to satisfy me.

While I admit that the game is a bit sparse in some areas (both without a subscription, and also with one), overall I find it an enjoyable game. I do feel that Guild Wars has much more polish in many ways, but some of that undoubtedly came from time, not from the very beginning. Also, for all Guild Wars offers, I never took to the game, at all. Just not my cup of tea. I bought it solely for PvP, and they butchered that from day one, so I never found a home in that game like I did Diablo. Is that my own fault for expecting the wrong things of the game, or the designers fault for falling short of their stated goals? That's debatable, but I'm sure it's a little of both. I found the PvE game to be too... tedious for my tastes, but the nearly-complete dependency of PvP on PvE was just utterly stupid, and totally ruined the game for me. Because of that bad experience, I have no intentions of getting Guild Wars 2, although any future content for Hellgate I most likely will buy right off the bat, provided things don't go downhill from here.

I digress. I didn't mean to rant.;)Bottom line: if the game isn't for you, don't buy it. Just don't expect everyone to feel the same as you do.;)Personally, I have yet to decide whether subscribing has its merits, especially in lieu of Arena.Net's generous offerings, but I'm willing to give this NEW company the benefit of the doubt.

Good luck in whatever gaming you endeavor in.

[Roland]

Maybe many of Xiuhcoatl's other objections are unrelated to having a subscription or not, but...

I have to agree with him. 3 character slots = crippled in a game of this sort. The whole beauty of DII (which is being compared in this thread with the nonsubscribed version of HGL) was about lots and lots of experimentation. Odd combos of special items (where would I put them?), and how to find a build that could make use of them.

D2 had an incredibly small stash when it first came out. We learned to deal with it. Diablo had NO stash. Again, we learned to deal with it. Even Guild Wars had a meager stash in the beginning, especially given how HORRENDOUS the item needs were (absolutely hundreds of different little items, all required for different quests, all of which the game was designed around). Once more, we learned to deal. Also, in two of those three cases the problem was addressed - one by a paid upgrade, the other for free. Both took a great deal of time. Is it so easy to forget the past in lieu of the present? I'm not saying I AGREE with the choices, but surely it's nothing new.

Look at character slots! Diablo had one account, one character. Diablo II expanded this to 8 characters per account. Guild Wars only had 5 (!) upon release, with only an additional 2 slots per PAID Expansion pack (if you linked them; 4 slots if you didn't, which sort of defeated the purpose of "expansion content"). Eventually Guild Wars opted for paid character slots (at $10 apiece, no less), but that took them over two expansions to produce.

I just don't see the justification in THIS MUCH hostility in light of what it's being compared to, including newer releases. If you don't want to pay, by all means don't. If you hate the game that much, by all means don't buy it. Don't expect to convince me it's such a horrible game, and the subscription model is complete trash when several games that have come before it have had the exact same issues (just without a pay model), that were corrected with time and money. It's absolutely no different, to me, and furthermore trashing a game this much upon RELEASE, before even giving the game a chance to accumulate all the extra goodies that a subscription will offer, is just plain silly and cynical. Even WoW, a subscription-based game from the start, lacked a HUGE amount of content upon release, not to mention you HAVE to pay to play that game. At least with Hellgate you have the opportunity to play in Single Player, for free, and still enjoy the actual game, even if it is without all the extra "fringe" benefits of subscription play.

All I'm saying is give the game a chance before tearing it to shreds. Come back 6 months down the road and talk to some people who HAVE bought the game, who HAVE paid for a subscription, and then make your judgments based on ALL the facts, instead of this cherry-picked fragment of view.

[oldmandennis]

I'm playing it and I'm enjoying it.

3 character slots is punative, no matter how you look at it. It compares unfavorably with everything on your list except Diablo 1, which is 11 years old. 3 is less then the number of classes. 3 is unbelievably harsh in a game that allows no respecs. If I'm playing with my buddy the guardian, I probably want to summon the witchdocter. If he quits, I have to **Delete** the character and start over, because you pretty much need a Carnigore to solo. If he starts playing again, I have to **Delete** my toon again. 3 is just unfair.

Asking to sub for new content is fair enough. If there were 8ish slots and a sub expanded it to 20, that would be a nice benefit. 3 characters and the tiny stash feel like they are punishing people to drive subscription rates, because they really don't have a clear idea what the new content is going to be.

[Lissa]

Maybe many of Xiuhcoatl's other objections are unrelated to having a subscription or not, but...

I have to agree with him.

Small nit, Xi = she... :whistling:

[Thenryb]

I did not see in Xi's post anything approaching "THIS MUCH HOSTILITY" or any effort to persuade anyone not to like the game. She was merely expressing her opinion and others I am sure will agree. Why would former Blizzard employees be clueless about the negative consequences of a three character limit and a dinky stash? There is a lot about the game I really like such as the fact it does not feel like a MMORPG. The fact that every battle area is "instanced" is terrific-it gives one a chance to get used to the interface without the distractions of a bunch of babble. I can see this game attracting the Guild Wars crowd but I will be amazed if it makes much of a dent in the popularity of WOW.

[Wyrm]

Guild Wars only had 5 (!) upon release, with only an additional 2 slots per PAID Expansion pack (if you linked them; 4 slots if you didn't, which sort of defeated the purpose of "expansion content"). Eventually Guild Wars opted for paid character slots (at $10 apiece, no less), but that took them over two expansions to produce.

Minor correction. GW has 4 char slots for a starting account and 2 per expansion, with a bonus one included with the NF preorder (but only if you have a NF retail key to go with it), for a maximum of 9 slots if you don't buy additional ones from the online store.

Supposedly, if you buy the platinum edition of the game (Proph + GW:EN) you get 6 if you create a new account, but I have no idea how that translates once you add keys for other campaigns.

[Roland]

I did not see in Xi's post anything approaching "THIS MUCH HOSTILITY" or any effort to persuade anyone not to like the game. She was merely expressing her opinion and others I am sure will agree. Why would former Blizzard employees be clueless about the negative consequences of a three character limit and a dinky stash? There is a lot about the game I really like such as the fact it does not feel like a MMORPG. The fact that every battle area is "instanced" is terrific-it gives one a chance to get used to the interface without the distractions of a bunch of babble. I can see this game attracting the Guild Wars crowd but I will be amazed if it makes much of a dent in the popularity of WOW.

I didn't mean to imply she was the source of all hostility. It was more a general comment. I apologize if that was unclear. I'm too used to people whining on the official forums during the Beta, I guess. A new "I quit" thread every day gets tiring fast, and when all you ever hear about outside of the Beta is how much the subscription sucks, when NO ONE has even seen it, it just gets tiring to hear.

Guild Wars is a very different beast than Hellgate, much closer to WoW than Hellgate is. I doubt Hellgate will make much of a dent in either, but I don't think that's their purpose. WoW caters to a certain crowd, as does Guild Wars. Hellgate will find its home, I am sure. I intend to play rather than worry about all the extra stuff that will come in time.:)

As for your comment about former Bliz employees... Well, in all honesty, I don't ever recall them learning much throughout their years at Blizzard, let alone retaining that knowledge from game to game.;)However, I think they'll come much farther in the future than they have currently. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on that, anyway.;)I must agree, though, that the 3 character limit is a bit harsh. I can see 4 or 5, but 3 is a little low. It's just... skimpy isn't the right word. As for the stash, I think people make a bigger deal out of it than it actually is. Not having a SHARED stash, OTOH, is worthy of more criticism. Honestly, if you truly think you NEED 16 different weapons and armors, you need more help than an expanded stash.:PKeep only what you intend to use, and scrap the rest. Believe me, you WILL run out of crafting materials. The game is designed around the idea of scrapping anything you don't use. Cash flows plenty, despite the numbers never getting higher than the 10s and 20s, even into clvl 18.

The stash I can live without. The extra slots, OTOH... Well, it is a bit of a kick in the teeth. I hope they expand it down the road, and the sooner the better.

[Kevin]

Look at character slots! Diablo had one account, one character. Diablo II expanded this to 8 characters per account. Guild Wars only had 5 (!) upon release, with only an additional 2 slots per PAID Expansion pack (if you linked them; 4 slots if you didn't, which sort of defeated the purpose of "expansion content"). Eventually Guild Wars opted for paid character slots (at $10 apiece, no less), but that took them over two expansions to produce.

Umm I played at least 5 different D1 toons online on battle.net. Yes account name = character name but you could just make another toon/account no big deal, it was unlimited, you were not limited to one. Single player didn't have a limit. Same with D2 it was essentially unlimited for online because I could make Gnollguy2 and put my 8 variations of the necro on that account if I wanted and my sorcs could be on the gnollguy account and I could have my paladin and barbarian on the GGtheMad account, etc. and it was unlimited for single player or maybe it capped at 99.

So yes it's a major difference and it's a real one. You had UNLIMITED toons in D1 and D2 if you went through the very minor hassle of making a new account when you filled up slots and you were unlimited in single player. If Hellgate was unlimited in single player but limited for online that would be a different story but from what I see that isn't the case. I could be wrong I haven't looked all that hard at it.

[Ashock]

I can see this game attracting the Guild Wars crowd but I will be amazed if it makes much of a dent in the popularity of WOW.

It won't. I played the Alpha. I played the Beta. I played...... that's about it. I'm back to WOW. The game is not bad. It's just not great. It also feels small. Smaller than even D2.

ps. Hi Xi :-)

[Thecla]

If Hellgate was unlimited in single player but limited for online that would be a different story but from what I see that isn't the case. I could be wrong I haven't looked all that hard at it.

As I understand it (I never actually tried single-player HGL at all -- with a decent internet connection, and a subscription account, you might just as well play solo-multiplayer in HGL, even more so than was the case with Diablo), HGL gives you an unlimited number of character slots in single player. The game severely limits the number of online character slots to 3 if you're a non-subscriber, but it allows a very reasonable 24 character slots if you subscribe. It doesn't allow you to make multiple accounts the way D2 did, so there's a real limit on subscribers also.

I actually like HGL a lot, much more than GW say, and perhaps it will attract some fraction of disaffected WoW players (like me), but I also don't see it as putting a dent in WoW's popularity. Too bad Bliz didn't produce a MMORPG for antisocial players like me, because they made such a wonderful world.

[Thenryb]

Too bad Bliz didn't produce a MMORPG for antisocial players like me, because they made such a wonderful world.
[/quote]

Well said. I ultimately found the social milieu of WOW too off-putting to continue playing. (This does not include the Lurkers who, for the most part, were fun to play with.) When I had enough with the Stormrage server, I went on to start a new character on a new server and played with a semi-annoying and I think, more typical guild. It was a game you could actually play alone and even max your character by just doing individual quests, perhaps partying occasionally. I had a RL acquaintance who did just that. He played a hunter and at level 65 he did not know how to train his pet. (He thought that when you bought the pet skill from the trainer, your pet automatically knew the skill.) I talked him through how to use that training icon to teach is pet skills and set up his pet hotbar. He went on to level 70 and got his flying mount with almost no help. Last I knew, HE even thought the game was fun:)

Back to WOW eh, Ashock? Sounds depressing but , then, here I am playing D2 (ranged characters only thanks to the ruination of melee builds in that game).

[Quark]

3 character slots online sucks, I'll readily admit that. But it's 3 character slots online. You can try as many things as you want - solo.

[Ashock]

Back to WOW eh, Ashock? Sounds depressing but , then, here I am playing D2 (ranged characters only thanks to the ruination of melee builds in that game).

Yeh, but I'm strictly PVP with my main and I started an Orc Warrior on Tich... sort of on the side, for the sole purpose of PVP. The group dungeon aspect of WOW does not appeal to me too much, but the PVP aspect does.

I went through the D2 stage also during my break from WOW, but got sick of it after about a month.

I really wanted to like Hellgate... but I just didn't.

[Kevin]

3 character slots online sucks, I'll readily admit that. But it's 3 character slots online. You can try as many things as you want - solo.

That's good to hear. Though I'm assuming you can't do LAN games with your friends with your solo toons like you could with D2 that their servers are the only way to do any kind of multiplayer (at least until someone engineers a way for you to run your own realm). But it is nice to know that you can do whatever in SP, I'm not all that interested in playing a game like this with people I don't already know even if I played online I'd likely be playing solo anyway. I rarely played D2 in games that didn't have a password because I didn't see the point, the fun in MP came from chatting with folks I already knew since it was a single player game that scaled. WoW is different in that aspects of it are designed to take more than one person, from what I understand everything in HGL and I know from experience that everything in D2 was designed for a single player. So I might even be able to live with the 3 online slots since I'd pretty much only be playing with set groups of folks anyway.

Of course my original reason for getting into this thread was because of someone trying to claim that D1 and D2 didn't have unlimited online slots, for free, when they did if you just did a very minor amount of extra work.

[Urza-DSF]

Just played the demo, and I have to say I'm not impressed. I've got a pretty decent system, but the visuals didn't seem to be there for a "next gen" game. It might be that I've outgrown the genre, but running through corridors to get items to get better items to run through more corridors just doesn't do it for me anymore.

A shame I suppose, but once less thing to spend money on at least^_^

[Thecla]

Double Post...