Why is griefing fun?

[Watto44]

The mere fact that it's possible to gank does not make it acceptable in any way, shape or form.
(snip)
Gankers ruined PvP servers. Plain and simple.

I absolutely have to disagree on both points.

1) When you roll on a PvP server (assuming you know the difference between the server rulesets) you make a tacit agreement that you're ok with being ganked. You know exactly what you're getting into, and it's the reason you rolled on a PvP server.

2) Gankers are PvP servers. That's the one differnce between the two server types, and to say that gankers ruined PvP servers is like saying roleplayers ruined RP servers.

What the numbnuts in the OP is doing though is circumventing the PvE ruleset to grief someone. That's not cool, but there's a difference between that and ganking someone.

[Taelas]

I absolutely have to disagree on both points.

1) When you roll on a PvP server (assuming you know the difference between the server rulesets) you make a tacit agreement that you're ok with being ganked. You know exactly what you're getting into, and it's the reason you rolled on a PvP server.

2) Gankers are PvP servers. That's the one differnce between the two server types, and to say that gankers ruined PvP servers is like saying roleplayers ruined RP servers.

What the numbnuts in the OP is doing though is circumventing the PvE ruleset to grief someone. That's not cool, but there's a difference between that and ganking someone.

Bull#$%&.

You can have a PvP server where ganking is the exception rather than the rule. It's what should be the norm.

I repeat: The fact that ganking is possible does not make it okay in any way, shape or form.

Reasonable world PvP is a different matter. That's what a PvP server is about: Engaging the other faction in (roughly) fair play. 5 levels do not really matter, neither does whether you're fighting two on one. Them's the breaks.

20 levels, though, or fighting four on one... No.

Ruthlessly slaughtering people who either can't fight back or who's too weak to do so is morally unacceptable. Interrupting others for the sheer purpose of ruining their gameplay is morally unacceptable.

Gankers DID ruin PvP servers. They could be so much better places. On my most recent exploration of a PvP server, I have only engaged in fair world PvP once -- every other time my character has died was due to ganking by ?? level opponents (and who did so while I was fighting mobs).

Fair world PvP is fun, and that is what PvP servers are about. Being ganked is not.

[Taelas]

We call those kinds of people "victims".

If you're on a PvP server, you're gonna find yourself in PvP whether you like it or not. It's unfortunate for those who have friends that like PvP, but would rather they themselves be on a PvE server, but them's the breaks.

Mavfin summed it up pretty well. I still disagree that I'm destroying someone else's fun; if I even consider it at all, I operate under the assumption that they are on a PvP server specifically to engage in PvP at all times. Again, it's a matter of perspective; fluffy cuddly PvE players probably can't or won't understand the viewpoint because they don't want to PvP when they don't want to. And that's fine, that's why there are different kinds of servers. But if you're on a PvP server, you're a target; if you can't defend yourself, that's just too bad. I carry swiftness potions, invisibility potions, healing potions (which you can get cheaply from the PvP vendors for marks of honor if you don't want to spend gold), and free action potions at all times so that I can react to whatever comes my way.

Being camped? Rez, pop an invisibility potion, and motor; you may or may not get away, but you'll at least get some distance. Alternatively, you can use a swiftness potion (which is what I generally do on my pally; between Divine Shield, Blessing of Freedom, and the rocket boots, I can cover a lot of ground in a hurry) for the same effect if you don't need invisibility.

I don't think the problem is as big as people on PvE servers think, either. There have been very few times I've been camped without doing something to deserve first; sometimes it's because I killed someone's friend, or because a forum troll recognizes one of the Horde forum trolls and wants to camp him as a friendly greeting. Yeah, I've lost ore nodes and mobs and escort quests because of Allies; but I do it to them and it's all in good fun. They wouldn't be on a PvP server otherwise:)

No, it's pretty obvious that you're firmly entrenched in the "abused becomes abuser" cycle.

I don't mind fair PvP. I like it. Ganking someone who's in the middle of doing something, though, that's not fair, and it's not fun.

Just to clarify, by "fair" I mean fights where you actually have a chance to defend yourself. Yes, this includes fights where all the odds are against you, but you still have an actual chance. Fighting two opponents, fighting opponents several levels higher than your own, etc.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Except that he doesn't want someone to plant their boot on him, which is why he rolled PvE.

Well as flagged someone technically *could* but as a PvE server few people *will*. There isn't much trouble like this on my server since the A/H pop is pretty balanced so if you give some grief you are going to get some pretty quick.

[Artega]

No, it's pretty obvious that you're firmly entrenched in the "abused becomes abuser" cycle.

I don't mind fair PvP. I like it. Ganking someone who's in the middle of doing something, though, that's not fair, and it's not fun.

Just to clarify, by "fair" I mean fights where you actually have a chance to defend yourself. Yes, this includes fights where all the odds are against you, but you still have an actual chance. Fighting two opponents, fighting opponents several levels higher than your own, etc.

And it's pretty obvious you can't accept ganking as PvP - even though it is - due to your carebear mentality. Likewise, I enjoy ganking and griefing because I have a griefer mentality, apparently.

I love ganking people when they're in the middle of doing something, because it is fun. I don't care if they've had a rough day and just want to do this quest or that instance before going to bed or whatever; if they're that pressed for game time, they picked the wrong kind of server. If Allies are camping an area where I want to quest or do something, know what I do? I either get some friends and kick them out, or I find something else to do, whether it's something else in-game or something else entirely.

I get sick of hearing people whine about being ganked and "griefing". Yeah, it really does suck sometimes, especially if it's an escort quest or something that requires reagents (like Terokk in Skettis.) But you know what? You take your licks and you get even or you move on. Whining about it and going on some holy crusade against ganking and all gankerkind will not solve anything, because Blizzard frankly doesn't give a flying blah-dee-blah as long as you're paying their monthly fees. If anything, it's just going to make them target you even more because they know they're getting to you.

And as for "fair" PvP: who needs it? I love uneven fights; there's nothing like crushing three allies at once when they tried to gank me while I was farming. And if someone's main ganks my alt, I either escape or get my main and teach them humility.

Because of your PvE mentality, I can understand why you don't like or can't really grasp the concepts of ganking and why it's so fun, and that doesn't really bother me at all; live and let live. But when people that play on PvE servers are telling me how to PvP - and even worse, suggesting that Blizzard actually place restrictions on my activities therein - it's absolutely absurd.

[Artega]

It is simply another means by which they can act out in a way that gives them what they want if only for a moment. The fact that it makes no sense to you reveals something valuable about your charater. Something to be cherished.

And what, exactly, am I wanting by killing someone's aether rays?

Just because someone is griefing someone else or ganking someone else doesn't mean they're a degenerate loser with serious mental issues.

I don't expect someone who plays on PvE servers to be capable of understanding that, though. And, being a PvP fiend, I don't expect to be capable of understanding how ganking and griefing can ever be bad.

As for what the guy did, I have to admire his creativity in creating a loophole that really isn't:)

[Taelas]

And it's pretty obvious you can't accept ganking as PvP - even though it is - due to your carebear mentality. Likewise, I enjoy ganking and griefing because I have a griefer mentality, apparently.

I love ganking people when they're in the middle of doing something, because it is fun. I don't care if they've had a rough day and just want to do this quest or that instance before going to bed or whatever; if they're that pressed for game time, they picked the wrong kind of server. If Allies are camping an area where I want to quest or do something, know what I do? I either get some friends and kick them out, or I find something else to do, whether it's something else in-game or something else entirely.

I get sick of hearing people whine about being ganked and "griefing". Yeah, it really does suck sometimes, especially if it's an escort quest or something that requires reagents (like Terokk in Skettis.) But you know what? You take your licks and you get even or you move on. Whining about it and going on some holy crusade against ganking and all gankerkind will not solve anything, because Blizzard frankly doesn't give a flying blah-dee-blah as long as you're paying their monthly fees. If anything, it's just going to make them target you even more because they know they're getting to you.

And as for "fair" PvP: who needs it? I love uneven fights; there's nothing like crushing three allies at once when they tried to gank me while I was farming. And if someone's main ganks my alt, I either escape or get my main and teach them humility.

Because of your PvE mentality, I can understand why you don't like or can't really grasp the concepts of ganking and why it's so fun, and that doesn't really bother me at all; live and let live. But when people that play on PvE servers are telling me how to PvP - and even worse, suggesting that Blizzard actually place restrictions on my activities therein - it's absolutely absurd.

The only reason why PvP servers are like that is because gankers ruined them.

As for "carebear", eh, no. A carebear is someone who refuses to PvP. I don't mind fair PvP.

You might enjoy PvP servers as they are now, but trust me -- there is a LOT of people who are on PvE servers who'd rather be on PvP servers where ganking is not as commonplace.

[Artega]

How can you say gankers "ruined" PvP servers?

I rolled on Bloodscalp the day it went active. I spent a little bit of time on Magtheridon prior to that, since Bloodscalp was not a launch server (it went live in December, I think.) Ganking was prevalent throughout Hillsbrad during the time I spent on Magtheridon, and it was prevalent on Bloodscalp as well.

Ganking was there from the start. How the hell can you say it ruined anything when it was there to begin with? Again, it's part of your mindset: to you, ganking is bad and must be purged so that all PvP that exists is all organized and "fair". That is the definition of a carebear; someone who objects to PvP. Ganking is PvP whether you like it or not.

[LochnarITB]

Ganking is PvP whether you like it or not.

This is true only in that ganking is what PvP has devolved into. As you know, PvP is short for player versus player. This implies player skill versus player skill, not biggest hammer wins. Ganking, almost by definition, is using a nuke to kill a house fly, no skill involved. The closest WoW has to true PvP is arena, and even that is marred by class imbalances, the reason you see top teams gravitating toward specific configurations. True PvP would be arena with characters having identical equipment and skill sets. Calling ganking PvP just seems like a way to justify being a bully.

[Skky]

"And what, exactly, am I wanting by killing someone's aether rays?"

-That is a very good question. What would you want? Information empowers us to make better choices.

grief:
–noun
1. keen mental suffering or distress over affliction or loss; sharp sorrow; painful regret.
2. a cause or occasion of keen distress or sorrow.
—Idioms
3. come to grief, to suffer disappointment, misfortune, or other trouble; fail: Their marriage came to grief after only two years.
4. good grief, (used as an exclamation of dismay, surprise, or relief): Good grief, it's started to rain again!

[Origin: 1175–1225; ME gref, grief < AF gref; see grieve]
[Middle English greven, from Old French grever, to harm, from Latin gravāre, to burden, from gravis, heavy; see gwerə-1 in Indo-European roots.]

—Synonyms 1. anguish, heartache, woe, misery; sadness, melancholy, moroseness. See sorrow.
—Antonyms 1. joy.

To choose to grief after knowing what it means is what becomes curious. And I do not always understand it.

Perhaps the person who is killing someone else's aether rays wants to, simply because he can. Or, because it gives him a sense of empowerment; a way to feel in control after he himself was mistreated and suffered a state of helplessness. It may be that the individual truly is unaware that his choices are grievous to those upon whom they are affected. Is it a simple misunderstanding over the word griefing here?

I cannot know the motivation or desire which caused that person to choose his behavior. I can know how his choices affect me and empathise with others who face them.

What we do and even what we do not do affects others.

"Just because someone is griefing someone else or ganking s"omeone else doesn't mean they're a degenerate loser with serious mental issues."

-Then, what does it mean? It is interesting that you conclude such a thing.

"I don't expect someone who plays on PvE servers to be capable of understanding that, though. And, being a PvP fiend, I don't expect to be capable of understanding how ganking and griefing can ever be bad."

I play on both PvP and PvE servers. I seek to understand and I am quite capable of understanding. (Though, ask the Lurkers on Terenas, it can take awhile but, I get there.)

[Taelas]

How can you say gankers "ruined" PvP servers?

Because what what happens mostly on PvP servers isn't PvP -- it's griefing, ganking.

I rolled on Bloodscalp the day it went active. I spent a little bit of time on Magtheridon prior to that, since Bloodscalp was not a launch server (it went live in December, I think.) Ganking was prevalent throughout Hillsbrad during the time I spent on Magtheridon, and it was prevalent on Bloodscalp as well.

Ganking was there from the start. How the hell can you say it ruined anything when it was there to begin with?

Simple. PvP is skill. Ganking is not.

It's obvious when you engage in fair world PvP that ganking is but a perversion of it.

Again, it's part of your mindset: to you, ganking is bad and must be purged so that all PvP that exists is all organized and "fair". That is the definition of a carebear; someone who objects to PvP. Ganking is PvP whether you like it or not.

The problem lies with gankers. Players who enjoy ganking have ruined PvP servers for those who want to engage in fair world PvP whenever the opportunity arises, but who do not enjoy getting steamrolled by ?? level players every five minutes. (And yes... I have been ganked by four different level ?? players four times in a row when I ran back to my corpse. I'd run back, heal up, pull a mob, then get attacked before I make my first hit. Four different players, four times in a row.)

You can keep repeating that because ganking exists, anyone who rolls on a PvP server implicitly agrees to ganking, but that doesn't make it true.

The abused becomes the abuser, so the cycle continues.

[Jester]

And what, exactly, am I wanting by killing someone's aether rays?

We 'carebears' ask the same question, with slightly different emphasis.

Just because someone is griefing someone else or ganking someone else doesn't mean they're a degenerate loser with serious mental issues.

I think there is some disagreement on this point.

I don't expect someone who plays on PvE servers to be capable of understanding that, though. And, being a PvP fiend, I don't expect to be capable of understanding how ganking and griefing can ever be bad.

Aha! The problem isn't that the actions are stupid and indefensible. It's that there's an *epistemological* issue between PvP and PvE! Well, that clears that up.

-Jester

[Artega]

PvP is skill. Ganking is not.

Player versus Player is you attacking or taking some form of aggressive action against another player.

By definition, ganking is PvP because you are taking aggressive action against a player of the opposing faction.

But, really, I'm done with this since you are clearly incapable of accepting that fact.

[Artega]

You're taking things far, far too seriously man.

It's a game. What happens in-game doesn't matter worth a damn, regardless of the fact that you're playing with or killing other real, live people. It's same thing about people getting their panties in a wad over getting called a name or seeing people use racial slurs online.

Generally speaking, it's not personal when I'm ganking or griefing someone. They made the choice to be Alliance scum, and they're being made to pay for it. It's as simple as that:)

[Mirajj]

Act like a jerk in real life or act like a jerk in a game in which you interact with other people. It's still acting like a jerk, and folks will still think you are a jerk, in the very least.

Thus is the consequence of your choice, regardless of what kind of server you choose to play on.

[Taelas]

Player versus Player is you attacking or taking some form of aggressive action against another player.

By definition, ganking is PvP because you are taking aggressive action against a player of the opposing faction.

But, really, I'm done with this since you are clearly incapable of accepting that fact.

I don't care if it technically fits the definition of PvP, I find ganking inexcusable. It's nothing but abuse of power, and it breeds abuse.

What exactly constitutes 'ganking' isn't exactly put down in stone, but then, neither is ethics. The line isn't hard to figure out.

[Mavfin]

I think we've passed the OP's original question, so let's leave the pointless ganking discussion behind. We all know Artega sees nothing wrong with what he pulls. I don't agree with how he does it, but, at least he's consistent about it, which is more than I can say for the PvE griefers, which was the real subject of the thread.

Thread locked.