Why is griefing fun?

[Kevin]

Bolty touched on this one day but I keep wondering about it because I don't get it. Why do people get pleasure from denying other folks pleasure?

Today I was on my prot warrior wrangling aether rays. An alliance MS warrior kept killing them as I was capturing them. Why was that fun for him? He was PvP flagged but had 2 stealhed rogues running with him. I don't get where the fun of someone attacking him and getting rogue ganked would have been fun either. This isn't an anti-PvP thing. I do arena's I play BG's I even flag when questing sometimes just because. It's the old bully mentality. I don't get it. I can not wrap my head around why it's fun to push another kid down just because you are bigger/older. I don't get why in a video game you get pleasure just from denying it to someone else. I enjoy getting my virtual money. Why did that asshat alliance enjoy preventing me from getting it?

I'll never understand it. And daily quests have several easy ways to grief other players (stand on the simon nodes on a mount so people can't click on them. Land your epic flyer on someone eating/drinking and fly up so the flak hits them. Kill their rays while they are roping them, bring adds to the escorts, etc). I still won't understand answers you give me. I get way more pleasure from knowing that I've given someone else pleasure. I don't get any from knowing that I denied it from someone in a childish way.

Yes I understand competition. I enjoyed playing football. And I played to win. And me winning prevented another player from winning so I denied them pleasure. But I wouldn't have enjoyed winning if my team mates were all using stick-em or had clubs so they could break other players legs. I don't enjoy winning by going outside the rules or by simply causing people grief. Even one game where I had 4 sacks, the 3rd and 4th just weren't as fun because I knew the guy blocking me just sucked way too bad. Maybe I'm the one who isn't normal. Maybe it's because I'm too self centered (I generally compete against myself not others, swimming and track were my main sports and while you do compete against other I was happier when I swam my fastest time, not when I won a race).

Oh well it was just something that came to mind because of being griefed doing the wrangling daily.

[Taelas]

All I can really add is that I don't get it either.

[Mirajj]

I've long wondered if we see so much of that crap online because it's very difficult to strike back, thus folks who have had it done to them, feel the need to do it to someone else, knowing that there is pretty much zero that can be done back to them.

Though in my many travels, I'm finding that more and more people are just outright mean, and very "me" centered. ~I~ am enjoying myself. ~I~ am having fun. ~I~ want to do this, and ~I~ can, so nyah nyah to you. They don't stop to consider, or more likely don't even CARE that their fun is coming at the expense of someone else. They had their moment of pleasure, so that's all they care about.

It's pretty sad, really.

[Watto44]

Interestingly, I've been griefed like this about twice on a PvP server. (Ganked many times, but that doesn't count.) Does it result from small minded people rolling on the wrong server types? To my mind you can engage in these types of activities on a PvE server with far little expectation of reprisals. Where as on a PvP server you know that eventually you're going to get CC'ed out of the zone by an unhappy (and probably torch weilding) mob. Not having to worry about the repurcussions of one's actions, whether it's because you're hidden behind your computer or are on a PvE server, probably leads to 99% of this sort of behavior. (I'm figuring that there's probably 1% of people who do this and would do it in RL as well.)

I've long wondered if we see so much of that crap online because it's very difficult to strike back, thus folks who have had it done to them, feel the need to do it to someone else, knowing that there is pretty much zero that can be done back to them.

Though in my many travels, I'm finding that more and more people are just outright mean, and very "me" centered. ~I~ am enjoying myself. ~I~ am having fun. ~I~ want to do this, and ~I~ can, so nyah nyah to you. They don't stop to consider, or more likely don't even CARE that their fun is coming at the expense of someone else. They had their moment of pleasure, so that's all they care about.

It's pretty sad, really.

I think that's pretty much spot on, but the question I'm interested in is does WoW encourage that sort of self-centered attitude? Sure, it's very much a social game with strong elements of team building et al, but it also encourages a certain amount of ruthlessness if you want to be "the best". Guild/arena team jumping are common symptoms of this, but you can see it in a small way in many aspects of the game: tapping that mob before the other player, stealing the quest spawn before the poor bugger who's cleared the area, etc. (Remember when you weren't automatically grouped in a BG? Selfish play was absolutely rampant.) Is WoW a game that nurtures a more social, fuzzy bunny ethos or are players rewarded too well for ruthlessness?

[mandydax]

Why do people get pleasure from denying other folks pleasure?
...
Oh well it was just something that came to mind because of being griefed doing the wrangling daily.

It's sad, but true.:(

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

[Sir_Die_alot]

Because they are horrible people. Sounds simplistic but its 100% true. I found this gem (warning don't click if you can't stand juvenile behavior by someone obviously old enough to know better) made by a person who I make it a point to KOS and camp because he was just an asshat ganker. When I saw this I realized just what a pathetic human being he really is.

In your case he should have rolled a pvp server so your best option is to keep going along and completely ignore him. He wants world pvp. He wants excitement. The more bored you make him the more you win.

[Swiss Mercenary]

He wants world pvp. He wants excitement. The more bored you make him the more you win.

Except that he doesn't want someone to plant their boot on him, which is why he rolled PvE.

[Artega]

Dunno man. I rolled PvP because I want to kill hapless Allies whenever the mood strikes me (which is usually anytime I see one), so griefing and ganking isn't really a big deal to me; even if I'm the victim, I usually find it pretty funny. Personally, I love ganking people doing Simon Says in BEM and watching them try to run away while under the Introspection debuff. Killing Aether Rays is also fun, as is blasting people from the "rooftops" in Skettis and watching the guards maul them when they try to fight back.

Only reason I can see someone like that being on a PvE server is either he picked the wrong server (or was following his fuzzy, cuddly friends) or he's a coward who only wants to grief when it's on his terms.

As for all griefers being horrible people, I disagree with that. Just because our definition of fun isn't yours doesn't mean we're bad people:)

[Taelas]

When your "fun" comes at the expense of others, yeah, it kinda does.

Some people choose PvP because they want to engage in casual world PvP. Not because they want to be part of the "gankee becomes ganker" cycle.

[Mirajj]

Just because our definition of fun isn't yours doesn't mean we're bad people

You are getting your fun at the expense of others. If it were not in a game you were doing so, it would be considered (by most people at any rate) to be, at the least, very rude.

To me, the fact that you are doing it in a game does not change that. If you have fun by ruining someone else's, and you see nothing wrong with that, you need help.

[Mavfin]

You are getting your fun at the expense of others. If it were not in a game you were doing so, it would be considered (by most people at any rate) to be, at the least, very rude.

To me, the fact that you are doing it in a game does not change that. If you have fun by ruining someone else's, and you see nothing wrong with that, you need help.

The difference for Artega, at least, is that he's engaging in this on a PvP server, so he can't hide behind being untouchable when he steals tags and stuff, and it's more expected there. I don't personally *like* that behavior any more there than on PvE, but, at least he can't do stuff and be untouchable there like most of the cowards that like to grief on PvE. The kind of behavior Artega thinks is fun is the *exact* reason I didn't roll on a PvP server. I don't have time or tolerance for that kind of juvenile BS. But, if Artega goes too far overboard on a PvP server, he'll have to endure being camped for a while. The PvE asshats have basically no consequences unless they flag themselves.

Now, for the little asshats that do it on PvE, they should be put in a permanent-flagged status by the GMs for about two weeks, and see how they like it then, when angry mobs use them as a chew toy.

[Mavfin]

When your "fun" comes at the expense of others, yeah, it kinda does.

Some people choose PvP because they want to engage in casual world PvP. Not because they want to be part of the "gankee becomes ganker" cycle.

Unfortunately, if you're on a PvP server, that's where you'll be, 90% of the time. That's why I don't play on PvP servers.

[Taelas]

You're not if you refuse to gank.

I don't play on a PvP server either, though.

[Jester]

As for all griefers being horrible people, I disagree with that. Just because our definition of fun isn't yours doesn't mean we're bad people:)

You're right. It's the part where your definition of fun is destroying mine that makes you a bad person.

Well, that and calling everyone who doesn't want to put up with constant griefing from people like yourself a 'coward'. That also doesn't help your 'good person' rating.

-Jester

[Treesh]

Unfortunately, if you're on a PvP server, that's where you'll be, 90% of the time. That's why I don't play on PvP servers.

When I was still playing on a PvP server, I actually had a lot of fun and didn't get ganked all that often. Of course, I usually only played there when I knew it wouldn't bother me to get my plans interrupted, but it really wasn't bad on the server; just an occasional annoyance. Of course, when alliance jumped a node that I had been killing towards, at least I could do something about it.;)

[LtWarhound]

Dunno man. I rolled PvP because I want to kill hapless Allies whenever the mood strikes me (which is usually anytime I see one), so griefing and ganking isn't really a big deal to me; even if I'm the victim, I usually find it pretty funny. Personally, I love ganking people doing Simon Says in BEM and watching them try to run away while under the Introspection debuff. Killing Aether Rays is also fun, as is blasting people from the "rooftops" in Skettis and watching the guards maul them when they try to fight back.

Only reason I can see someone like that being on a PvE server is either he picked the wrong server (or was following his fuzzy, cuddly friends) or he's a coward who only wants to grief when it's on his terms.

As for all griefers being horrible people, I disagree with that. Just because our definition of fun isn't yours doesn't mean we're bad people:)

Have to agree with...*stops, counts, shrugs* too many people posting on this thread. Griefers are, at the very best, rude. Except of course we're wrong, because we are 'fuzzy, cuddly'. That's the two sides of the problem, you are either a griefer or a carebear. Those of us that like PvP (as opposed to ganking) are just too few to matter.

As far as the situation for the original poster, all you can do is walk away. Don't confront them, don't yell at them, don't emote at them, don't fight them. Go someplace else, or log out yourself. Otherwise you are giving the griefers _exactly_ what they are looking for. Don't feed the trolls, evah.

Why not fight them? They know how to abuse the system, they know the limits, and the GMs for the most part aren't going to care who started it. Fight them, and odds are you will end up with the mark on your record, and the trolls will just eat it up. Don't feed the trolls, evah.

[Concillian]

When your "fun" comes at the expense of others, yeah, it kinda does.

Some people choose PvP because they want to engage in casual world PvP. Not because they want to be part of the "gankee becomes ganker" cycle.

Blizzard is pretty clear on what seperates a PvP server from a Normal server.

On a normal server you have to invite PvP
On an abnormal server you can gank anyone anytime

If he likes to gank, he is in the right place. The way I see it, it's not rude on a PvP server because that's the only difference in ruleset between a Normal server and an abnormal server

[Skky]

The world is filled with people who cause grief in one way or another. Games are played by people in the world. Some of those play WoW. Obvious, yes. But, why do they choose to harm you? The reasons are many and do little to comfort those who fall prey to the sort of unkindness that is seemingly pointless and even confusing, unless there is hope of a viable and lasting solution.

It is simply another means by which they can act out in a way that gives them what they want if only for a moment. The fact that it makes no sense to you reveals something valuable about your charater. Something to be cherished.

Choose how to react to it in a way that causes no grief in return for anyone, even yourself. Posting here is a great start... I need to learn not to botttle my own feelings. /hugs GG I hate that happened to you. You did not deserve it.

[Taelas]

Blizzard is pretty clear on what seperates a PvP server from a Normal server.

On a normal server you have to invite PvP
On an abnormal server you can gank anyone anytime

If he likes to gank, he is in the right place. The way I see it, it's not rude on a PvP server because that's the only difference in ruleset between a Normal server and an abnormal server

The mere fact that it's possible to gank does not make it acceptable in any way, shape or form.

I don't mind world PvP. I have no problem with it. I love questing, meeting a roughly equal-level member of the opposite faction and fight them. I don't care if I lose; it's all in good fun. What is NOT fun is having someone ?? levels above you kill you for absolutely no other reason than that he was passing by, then point-and-laugh at you and wait around till you corpse-run and do it again. What I have a problem with is intentional griefing -- such as what Artega posted.

Gankers ruined PvP servers. Plain and simple.

[Artega]

You're not if you refuse to gank

We call those kinds of people "victims".

If you're on a PvP server, you're gonna find yourself in PvP whether you like it or not. It's unfortunate for those who have friends that like PvP, but would rather they themselves be on a PvE server, but them's the breaks.

Mavfin summed it up pretty well. I still disagree that I'm destroying someone else's fun; if I even consider it at all, I operate under the assumption that they are on a PvP server specifically to engage in PvP at all times. Again, it's a matter of perspective; fluffy cuddly PvE players probably can't or won't understand the viewpoint because they don't want to PvP when they don't want to. And that's fine, that's why there are different kinds of servers. But if you're on a PvP server, you're a target; if you can't defend yourself, that's just too bad. I carry swiftness potions, invisibility potions, healing potions (which you can get cheaply from the PvP vendors for marks of honor if you don't want to spend gold), and free action potions at all times so that I can react to whatever comes my way.

Being camped? Rez, pop an invisibility potion, and motor; you may or may not get away, but you'll at least get some distance. Alternatively, you can use a swiftness potion (which is what I generally do on my pally; between Divine Shield, Blessing of Freedom, and the rocket boots, I can cover a lot of ground in a hurry) for the same effect if you don't need invisibility.

I don't think the problem is as big as people on PvE servers think, either. There have been very few times I've been camped without doing something to deserve first; sometimes it's because I killed someone's friend, or because a forum troll recognizes one of the Horde forum trolls and wants to camp him as a friendly greeting. Yeah, I've lost ore nodes and mobs and escort quests because of Allies; but I do it to them and it's all in good fun. They wouldn't be on a PvP server otherwise:)