Coming Soon: Changes for mages

[Mavfin]

They should have been set in stone long ago.

See, I disagree with this. This game will *always* be a work in progress. The day it stops changing is the day they shut it down. There will always be new content to re-balance things for, and there will always be new ways that people will use talents that Blizzard hadn't thought of, and they'll have to tweak things for.

As far as class changes, I've seen every class have its day in the sun, and I have also seen them get hit hard by the nerfbat. It's just the cycle, IMO.

I have a feeling Skan is on the right track on the Ice Block change. They may need that down the road in something Blizzard is planning. Maybe not. Regardless, Blizz giveth and Blizz taketh away. Our choice is to play, or not to play.

[LochnarITB]

The day it stops changing is the day they shut it down.

I didn't say they should stop changing. They should continue to add content. They should raise caps. They should expand trees with raised caps. The way they do it now, everything changes. They keep changing the target but they are also changing the gun we are shooting with. There will never be a bullseye.

I keep coming back for the content but all the class changing and resulting bickering and whining makes me want to puke. I love the game but hate the rules makers and the player population en masse.

[Mavfin]

I love the game but hate the rules makers and the player population en masse.

Oh, I hate the whining about every change, too. That's why I'm pretty much the last to know about anything on the official forums. Too much whining. I read here, I read EJ some, and that's about it. If it's not in those places, and I don't hear about it in-game, I won't see it.

[Lissa]

They've stated that the change is so they can balance PvE encounters around mages having Ice Block. Quite understandable.
(EDIT: Source.)

They have invisibiity for this reason. If they can't maintain their aggro, that's their own fault. Warlocks have to deal with threat far more than Mages do and they get a half aggro wipe that can be resisted where as Invisibility cannot. I'll stick by my earlier comment of it being a frivalous change, it's not needed at all.

Seriously, cut it out. Blizzard has nerfed mages in the past. Counterspell on the GCD was a hefty nerf, as was the coefficiency tax. They were reversed because they were way too much.

I'll also add that mages are currently not among the top damage dealing classes. Rogues and warlocks beat them out of the water with relative ease.

And other classes haven't been nerfed as bad? Please, other classes have seen far more numerous nerfs than Mages and yet Blizzard hasn't reversed any of their nerfs. If you look at it from that stand point, yes, it certainly does look like coddling to me, especially when they throw out frivalous changes like the IB change.

[Pantalaimon]

They have invisibiity for this reason. If they can't maintain their aggro, that's their own fault. Warlocks have to deal with threat far more than Mages do and they get a half aggro wipe that can be resisted where as Invisibility cannot. I'll stick by my earlier comment of it being a frivalous change, it's not needed at all.

I'm pretty sure "balancing around mages having ice block" != "balancing around mages having an aggro wipe". Just off the top of my head, you could have a fight where you need someone to go push a button, but during some sort of blast-wave-o'-doom that does 100k damage. Mage blinks over, pushes button, ice blocks. Tada. Balancing around mages not pulling aggro? I really don't think blizzard is fond of making aggro sensitive fights anymore, because Omen turns it into a "who can watch little coloured bars best" fight. You said it yourself; if they made threatcap so low that mages are pulling aggro... well then, warlocks, shadowpriests and DPS warriors would scream bloody murder because they'd basically be able to do white damage:P

Which brings me to another allusion you're making; that mages top charts. That's just... simply not true at all. I forget who said it, but basically it boils down to this: mages compete directly with destruction warlocks for raid spots. They're called shadow mages for a reason. Besides having one for AI and water, and possibly improved blizzard but not really, there's no reason to take a mage over a destro lock at the moment because the lock just does way more damage. It frustrated me enough to reroll warlock, to be completely honest.

[Artega]

I'd not mind seeing the hunter damage tax undone, now that everyone's 70, and the clothies can't whine about being 2-3 shot anymore.

No, instead they now whine about you dispelling Earth Shield and Power Word: Shield and hitting them with Mortal Strike from 41 yards away:)

[Lissa]

In current content - yeah. There's nothing that Ice Block really does aside from help out on Archimonde a little bit. Most high-end raiding mages know that, in current content, trainable ice block changes nothing.

We'll see what Sunwell is like. After all, they made Innervate trainable specifically because they finally introduced mana limited fights (and the first truly mana-limited fights were introduced in Naxxramas). It may very well be that a Sunwell fight has something that every class needs to be able to answer, and that mages didn't have it. Hard to say. But if Blizzard says (which they basically have) that they're tuning at least one Sunwell encounter around the assumption that all mages have ice block, they'd better make sure all mages have ice block. You might say, well then, change that fight, but we all know it's not that easy. Viscidus never got changed, and he certainly was one of the top five fights that desperately needed adjustment in their time.

The PvP explanation isn't really believable, though. Adding Ice Block to a fire mage isn't going to make them any more competitive in high-level arena than they are now. You still need Water Elemental and Cold Snap.

And how is it that IB could actually be used that all mages would need it an other classes wouldn't need a similar skill? Are they going to make it so that all mages get a buff that makes them detonate equal to their mana bar if they don't have IB up? If so, that's an extremely power reason to add something to the game so that they can do something like this. IB gives you a temporary aggro dump and protects you from taking damage (although there are some encounters out there right now where IB doesn't stop the damage you take). I honestly still do not see a good reason, even in future content, to figure something around a talent being turned into a class skill when the talent's scope is protecting from damage (which every class could us) and temporarily dropping aggro (which Mages already have on a more permanent situation with Invisibility).

Kalgon's reasoning, as it stands right now, is that this is a completely frivalous maneuver and it's silly to tune encounter specifically around one talent that has no benefit to any other character but the person using it (atleast Innervate, PW:S, and others benefited more than just the class that had access to it).

[Taelas]

They have invisibiity for this reason. If they can't maintain their aggro, that's their own fault. Warlocks have to deal with threat far more than Mages do and they get a half aggro wipe that can be resisted where as Invisibility cannot. I'll stick by my earlier comment of it being a frivalous change, it's not needed at all.

... This doesn't even make sense. Ice Block isn't an aggro wipe. Invisibility doesn't remove debuffs.

There's no comparison.

And other classes haven't been nerfed as bad? Please, other classes have seen far more numerous nerfs than Mages and yet Blizzard hasn't reversed any of their nerfs. If you look at it from that stand point, yes, it certainly does look like coddling to me, especially when they throw out frivalous changes like the IB change.

Name me one class that has seen worse nerfs and not had them reversed to an acceptable level.

[Lissa]

... This doesn't even make sense. Ice Block isn't an aggro wipe. Invisibility doesn't remove debuffs.

There's no comparison.

It is still a frivalous change. As Skan pointed out, if they're trying to make fights based around IB, then they are going to need to add similar skills to all classes, not just Mages because I can gaurentee they will screw up what their implementing and break it so that it affects more than just Mages necessitating an IB type skill for whoever gets affected. Think about what all IB does, then look at other classes, does it make sense for IB to be a class power, no, it doesn't, as such it's frivalous.

Name me one class that has seen worse nerfs and not had them reversed to an acceptable level.

I would hardly call the things they did to Imp Fireball and Imp Frost Bolt the worst nerfs ever. There was a clear reason that they did it, but didn't completely think it through. During tBC beta, they realized that the Tier 5+ powers that were new made Fireball and Frost Bolt deal way more damage then they wanted, so instead of toning down the Tier 5+ talents and the synergy within, they instead choose to nerf the coefficients on Fireball and Frost Bolt if you took Imp Fireball and Imp Frost Bolt respectively. I know Quark did some looks at their math and he was one of the first to point out that Blizzard was dealing with it wrong and instead should have toned down the Tier 5+ talents by a few percent then hitting the coefficents on Fireball and Frost Bolt when improved. Given a few weeks, you will see the same thing happen again that Blizzard was trying to guard against, maybe this time they might realize where the problem lies, but I will bet you see Mages at the top or near the top of the DPS meters again with the reversing of the coefficient issues.

[Mirajj]

No, instead they now whine about you dispelling Earth Shield and Power Word: Shield and hitting them with Mortal Strike from 41 yards away:)

Oi, and how. Funny thing is though, whenever I chance over to the official WoW fora, I am constantly amazed by the amount 41/41/41 hunters folks encounter. You'd think that Blizz would catch all these hacking hunters.;)

[Mirajj]

Name me one class that has seen worse nerfs and not had them reversed to an acceptable level.

- "Silencing Shot" now does only 50% of weapon damage instead of 75%.
- The base damage for "Arcane Shot" has been reduced by about 9% and the bonus damage from ranged attack power reduced from 20% to 15%.
- Traps can be set while in combat, but require a 2 second arming time.
- 1 Agility will now grant 1 Ranged Attack Power.
- "Auto shot" is now reset when casting Aimed Shot.
- "The Beast Within's" Bonus damage caused has been reduced to 10%, but now also reduces the mana cost of all spells by 20%.
- Arcane Shot: Casting lower ranks of Arcane Shot than your maximum rank will now reduce the bonus you receive from attack power.

[Skandranon]

It is still a frivalous change. As Skan pointed out, if they're trying to make fights based around IB, then they are going to need to add similar skills to all classes, not just Mages because I can gaurentee they will screw up what their implementing and break it so that it affects more than just Mages necessitating an IB type skill for whoever gets affected. Think about what all IB does, then look at other classes, does it make sense for IB to be a class power, no, it doesn't, as such it's frivalous.

My point isn't that it's a frivolous change. My point is that we don't know. So far all the information we have is that Blizzard is balancing new PvE encounters around the assumption that every mage has ice block. That sounds to me like a good reason to give every mage ice block.

It's not about mages v. other classes. In terms of PvE design, if you assume that every mage has ice block and you do not make it a trained skill, you're forcing raid groups to bring all frost mages, in direct contrast with the way they've built talent trees to this point in TBC. Again, this is why they made Innervate a trained skill, because bringing a resto druid versus bringing a non-resto druid was such a wide gulf in capability.

As to exactly what they're doing that'll make ice block mandatory? I can't say. Just because we can't think of it doesn't make it impossible to do. At this juncture I think we should all take Blizzard's word when they say "Here's Ice Block. You'll need it." Better, I think, than automatically disbelieving them.

Given a few weeks, you will see the same thing happen again that Blizzard was trying to guard against, maybe this time they might realize where the problem lies, but I will bet you see Mages at the top or near the top of the DPS meters again with the reversing of the coefficient issues.

Part of the reason Icy Veins is being introduced is because Blizzard is checking out mage DPS with the coefficient tax reverses and finding out that, in fact, mages are still not sufficiently competitive. The fact is, the coefficient taxes were a reaction to the strength of tailoring and the apparent imbalance of mages in t5/t6 equivalent loot versus other classes in dungeon blues and Karazhan loot. Now that the gear playing field is level, mages are finding themselves behind, and I personally suspect that we need far more DPS help than just Icy Veins. But I'll take that for now. Baby steps.

[Skandranon]

- "Silencing Shot" now does only 50% of weapon damage instead of 75%.
- The base damage for "Arcane Shot" has been reduced by about 9% and the bonus damage from ranged attack power reduced from 20% to 15%.
- Traps can be set while in combat, but require a 2 second arming time.
- 1 Agility will now grant 1 Ranged Attack Power.
- "Auto shot" is now reset when casting Aimed Shot.
- "The Beast Within's" Bonus damage caused has been reduced to 10%, but now also reduces the mana cost of all spells by 20%.
- Arcane Shot: Casting lower ranks of Arcane Shot than your maximum rank will now reduce the bonus you receive from attack power.

I would say that a class' history of buffs or nerfs is irrelevant. The question that matters is "Are classes balanced?" Beastmaster hunters are some of the most fearsome ranged DPS classes in the game, at this moment. That suggests to me that despite these nerfs, there's much less wrong with the hunter class than with some others.

[Pantalaimon]

It is still a frivalous change.

OK this has been bothering me for a while... the word is frivolous. :D

As Skan pointed out, if they're trying to make fights based around IB, then they are going to need to add similar skills to all classes, not just Mages because I can gaurentee they will screw up what their implementing and break it so that it affects more than just Mages necessitating an IB type skill for whoever gets affected. Think about what all IB does, then look at other classes, does it make sense for IB to be a class power, no, it doesn't, as such it's frivalous.

It seems like when blizzard hears the moans of a DPS class saying there's no reason to bring them because they don't do enough damage, they often toss the class a "gimmick" fight where they're required. Think rogues and supression room - they were being outdamaged by DPS warriors, so the rhetoric was "why bother bringing rogues?". Instead of buffing their damage or fixing itemization (that came later, granted), they gave them disarming traps in raids. Nowadays there's alot of mage QQ about "why bring us when we can't outDPS hunters/warlocks/XX and have no utility, either!" so I'm sensing a gimmick using IB. Perhaps like I outlined above, involving a big red button, and some sort of nasty effect when you push it that would require IB, but couldn't be done with a pally + bubble. *shrug* Was just a thought!

Given a few weeks, you will see the same thing happen again that Blizzard was trying to guard against, maybe this time they might realize where the problem lies, but I will bet you see Mages at the top or near the top of the DPS meters again with the reversing of the coefficient issues.

Again... mages beyond SSC-ish aren't at the top of the DPS meters, even after reversing the coefficient crap. They won't be after they give ice block as trainable, either. Maybe closer with icy veins, but we'll see:P

[Artega]

- "Silencing Shot" now does only 50% of weapon damage instead of 75%.
- The base damage for "Arcane Shot" has been reduced by about 9% and the bonus damage from ranged attack power reduced from 20% to 15%.
- Traps can be set while in combat, but require a 2 second arming time.
- 1 Agility will now grant 1 Ranged Attack Power.
- "Auto shot" is now reset when casting Aimed Shot.
- "The Beast Within's" Bonus damage caused has been reduced to 10%, but now also reduces the mana cost of all spells by 20%.
- Arcane Shot: Casting lower ranks of Arcane Shot than your maximum rank will now reduce the bonus you receive from attack power.

And you were given Disarm, Mortal Strike, and Dispel Magic as compensation. You can't have both damage AND utility, unless you're a Warrior.

[Mirajj]

Double post nukage...

[Mirajj]

And you were given Disarm, Mortal Strike, and Dispel Magic as compensation. You can't have both damage AND utility, unless you're a Warrior.

We weren't given Disarm. And buffing PvP doesn't help PvE nerfs.;)though, since the nerfs came about due to PvP in the first place, maybe it does make sense to Blizz.

[Mirajj]

I would say that a class' history of buffs or nerfs is irrelevant. The question that matters is "Are classes balanced?" Beastmaster hunters are some of the most fearsome ranged DPS classes in the game, at this moment. That suggests to me that despite these nerfs, there's much less wrong with the hunter class than with some others.

Knowing what I do of your playing, I'm interested in some expansion on this point. From everything I've heard and the WWS' I've seen, while hunters are no longer simple MDBots in a raid, they are still pretty close, being topped by just about everything (other than mages) on end game 25man raids...but you are saying that they are tops in the ranged dps category. Does this imply that all ranged dps needs some help, or that what I've been seeing is atypical?

[Lissa]

It seems like when blizzard hears the moans of a DPS class saying there's no reason to bring them because they don't do enough damage, they often toss the class a "gimmick" fight where they're required. Think rogues and supression room - they were being outdamaged by DPS warriors, so the rhetoric was "why bother bringing rogues?". Instead of buffing their damage or fixing itemization (that came later, granted), they gave them disarming traps in raids. Nowadays there's alot of mage QQ about "why bring us when we can't outDPS hunters/warlocks/XX and have no utility, either!" so I'm sensing a gimmick using IB. Perhaps like I outlined above, involving a big red button, and some sort of nasty effect when you push it that would require IB, but couldn't be done with a pally + bubble. *shrug* Was just a thought!

No, it wasn't that anyone was out DPSing Rogues, it was because Rogues were screaming to have more utility so Blizzard said here you go and gave them the suppression room. After that, you didn't hear as much from Rogues on utility because they were afraid of what Blizzard may throw their way next (another something that Blizzard did to be cutesy with Rogues after they asked for something is the putting of small hearts on the T3 armor).

[Lissa]

My point isn't that it's a frivolous change. My point is that we don't know. So far all the information we have is that Blizzard is balancing new PvE encounters around the assumption that every mage has ice block. That sounds to me like a good reason to give every mage ice block.

It's not about mages v. other classes. In terms of PvE design, if you assume that every mage has ice block and you do not make it a trained skill, you're forcing raid groups to bring all frost mages, in direct contrast with the way they've built talent trees to this point in TBC. Again, this is why they made Innervate a trained skill, because bringing a resto druid versus bringing a non-resto druid was such a wide gulf in capability.

As to exactly what they're doing that'll make ice block mandatory? I can't say. Just because we can't think of it doesn't make it impossible to do. At this juncture I think we should all take Blizzard's word when they say "Here's Ice Block. You'll need it." Better, I think, than automatically disbelieving them.

I don't honestly see how they can introduce something and say that Mages have a need for Ice Block unless they're going to institued Nef part 2 (Nef Mage call to remove mage call effects). This is the only thing I can see them doing given what IB does, and to do that is really old and tiring. Of all the fights that they have rehashed so far, they've always added a twist to it (Lurker being C'Thun phase 1, but without the jumping death lightning and insta-kill beam for example). If they need to make it so all mages have IB, they're basically rehasing the Nef fight's class calls which would be fairly boring now matter what you try to do. If that's their reasoning to make it so all mages have IB, I say to them, go rethink your fight and come up with a better mechanism than to have a one trick solution of turning a talent into a class skill. All the other talents they shifted to class skills prior to this were necessary, but to design fights around the Nef class call aspect to justify giving a talent as a class skill is silly and wasteful time spent (and probably boring for every raider that has seen that type of fight).