WoW newbie looking for advice

[Frag]

SW:P first, always, always, always, always. The only time that this is over ruled by is when you get Vampiric Touch at level 50. DoTs always go up first for a Shadow Priest.

Here's how you pull as a Shadow Priest as a sub 50 shadow Priest:
Cast SW:P while backing up, cast Vampiric Embrace while backing up, cast Power Word: Shield while still backing, when global cooldown finishes, cast Mindblast, cast Mind Flay, then cast Mindblast and Mind Flay and use wand while reapplying Shadow Word: Pain and Power Word: Shield as needed.

Inefficient.

Max range: Mind Blast >strafe > SW:P while strafing> Mind Flay>Mind Flay> Wand.

There's no need to waste mana on vampiric embrace as they're not going to damage you overmuch anyway providing you're grinding on the proper mobs and quests. As for PW:S, since there's little reason to cast with a mob in melee given the -hp% that the alpha strike provides and the dps of SW:P on the mob means that the mob isn't going to be in your face that long, so uninterruptability isn't of great value. Past 50 substitute the opening MB for VT. Now, if you're working on +1-+4 quests/mobs, instead of efficiently grinding out green, then heavier mana usage rotations per mob might be called for. Either way, if you have room to strafe, use that to gain range instead of backing up, will typically allow for a half to most of a full Mind Flay with just that change.

Cheers,
~Frag

[Klaus]

Inefficient.

Max range: Mind Blast >strafe > SW:P while strafing> Mind Flay>Mind Flay> Wand.

There's no need to waste mana on vampiric embrace as they're not going to damage you overmuch anyway providing you're grinding on the proper mobs and quests. As for PW:S, since there's little reason to cast with a mob in melee given the -hp% that the alpha strike provides and the dps of SW:P on the mob means that the mob isn't going to be in your face that long, so uninterruptability isn't of great value. Past 50 substitute the opening MB for VT. Now, if you're working on +1-+4 quests/mobs, instead of efficiently grinding out green, then heavier mana usage rotations per mob might be called for. Either way, if you have room to strafe, use that to gain range instead of backing up, will typically allow for a half to most of a full Mind Flay with just that change.

Cheers,
~Frag

I agree. Starting with the instant-cast SWP wastes the out-of-combat cast time you could gain by starting with the MB. Doing MB->SWP gives you some up-front damage, changes the ticking of the DOT not at all (compared to opening with SWP) and gets the MB cooldown started for a 2nd usage.

The only point I don't use in my own play is the strafe. I've gotten quite good at inst-flipping 180 degrees and running while casting SWP and VE over my shoulder. Then snap back around and flay. Note that a 2nd flay, even if you only get 2 of the 3 ticks before getting hit, is more damage / mana than another blast or using shield to get more flays in. On a slow-hitting mob, you can frequently time the cast of a flay to get those 2 ticks between hits.

The run-instead-of-strafe thing is a personal playstyle choice - strafe should work just fine, I just do it the other way. And I do sometimes back up instead of running if I know I'll be able to get a full flay in, and that that will be all I'll need. Sometimes the little extra distance of backing up is enough, and strafe or run is more work than it's worth.

[Kevin]

SW:P first, always, always, always, always. The only time that this is over ruled by is when you get Vampiric Touch at level 50. DoTs always go up first for a Shadow Priest.

Here's how you pull as a Shadow Priest as a sub 50 shadow Priest:
Cast SW:P while backing up, cast Vampiric Embrace while backing up, cast Power Word: Shield while still backing, when global cooldown finishes, cast Mindblast, cast Mind Flay, then cast Mindblast and Mind Flay and use wand while reapplying Shadow Word: Pain and Power Word: Shield as needed.

I so disagree with this. Most mobs SW:P doesn't even need to be cast pre L50 or so. It's wasting mana, it may up kill speed a bit, but higher mana efficiency can speed up the kill time of the next mob (or maybe the 3rd or 4th mob down the line) and can be faster over all. Though it also depends on how much you can stand to sit and drink. Keep in mind that when I play a paladin I NEVER sit and drink while solo. I would rather judge wisdom and run seal of wisdom on a melee heavy mob (they do less damage to me than a caster) and get mana back that way than sit and drink.

Pre shadow form what worked the best was open with holy fire. Yes holy fire. Rank 1 (with no spell damage gear) is 118 damage (assuming the mob lives for 10s and if people are thinking about SW:P at all they must believe it will last for 10s) for 85 mana, you get this at L20. Rank 2 Mind Blast is 116 damage for 110 mana you get this at L22 so I figure you can compare those. Rank 2 HF (L24) is 148 for 95 mana. Mind Flay Rank 2 is 126 for 70 but you need L28. Though at that point you finally have talents to get you some more shadow damage.

Since you don't get Shadow form till L40 lets look at the L30 - 40 range. Let's assume you get 5/5 Shadow weaving as soon as you can (so you've got that done by L29). Things do change when you have shadow form, and mobs start having enough health to actually worry about putting up things like VT or SW:P around then, before then it's generally not worth it.

L30 HF R3, MF R2, MB R4, SW:P R4
L34 HF R3, MF R2, MB R5, SW:P R5
L36 HF R4, MF R3, MB R5, SW:P R5

That is what you have to work with in those levels. You can consider smite but it's not as mana efficient as Holy fire is and Shadow weaving starts to really make a difference between holy and shadow and you start to run into some gear that gives just +shadow as opposed to just +spell damage.

So how do those work out for you as far as damage and mana goes?
HF 3 = 204 for 125 (149 + 55 over 10 if you really want to break it down) = 1.632
HF 4 = 252 for 145 (187 + 65) = 1.738 DPM
MF 2 = 126 for 70 (channeled over 3s) = 1.800 DPM
MF 3 = 186 for 100 = 1.860 DPM
MB 4 = 172 for 150 = 1.146 DPM
MB 5 = 224 for 185 = 1.211 DPM
SW:P 4 = 234 for 155 (18s or 39 per tick, 6 ticks) = 1.510 DPM
SW:P 5 = 366 for 230 (61 per tick) = 1.591 DPM (for full 18s)

So L30 if you open with HF you do 204 damage, 1.5s later they get hit with a MB for 172, then MF 1 hits them and channels for 126. So you are 4.5s into the fight and you start the nest MF channel for 126 more damage, 7.5s have passed and the mob may have gotten to you to swing, or it may not have. Generally I could get 2 full MF in when doing this routine. You start up the want it fires and the last tick of the HF DoT finishes. You have done 683 damage + 1 wand shot so over 700 damage. In general L30 mobs have about 1000 HP. So you can do another MB if you like before wanding (it will be back after 2 MF) for 172 more (or 855 total in 12.5s counting the HF wind-up) which means you put it about 4 wand shots from dead, the 1.5s cast generally won't get stuttered at all either. Dead mob using 565 mana (for 2x MB cycle), you maybe took 3 hits, maybe mob dead in 15 seconds or so.

If you start with SW:P, Mind Blast, Flay, Flay, Mind Blast you get SW:P cast, 1.5s later MB is cast (Global cooldown has to clear, it clears while the cast of HF is going though) at 3s in MB hits. 2xflay though you are less likely to be able to star flay at it's max range with sequence I could still generally get 2 in. So you are 9s in now and then you can MB again so you are 10.5 in after that cast is done, so you got 3 ticks of SW:P (one at 2x weaving, 1 at 3x weaving and one at 4x). You did (39*1.02 + 39*1.06 + 39*1.08 + 172*1.02 + 126*1.06 + 126*1.08 + 172*1.08) = (40 + 42 + 43 + 175 + 133 + 136 + 186) = 795 damage (vs 855 if you had used HF though you have 2 more seconds to make up that 60 damage and the next tick of pain should be for 43) and you used 595 or 30 more mana to do it. You are in the situation of the mob getting to you faster (since the mob isn't coming at you while winding up HF and that long wind up on HF is also letting you get more spirit regen). Again L30 mobs are generally at around 1000 HP and L32 are around 1200. You have a +2 mob sitting with 345 or so HP vs 485 or so HP when it gets up close to you. The SW:P ticks alone won't finish it off since half of it's damage is done by then.

Now again this is pre shadow form, it's only for about 15 levels of play but it's worth keeping in mind. I didn't show the numbers for the other levels but they work out pretty much the same. And with the way spirit regen works thanks to the longer cast of HF as I move between mobs I got more mana regen if I used it to pull with, so I generally could kill about 3 more mobs with the HF and no SW:P method before having to drink. It was just faster.


After you get shadow form I still pull with Mind blast most of the time then apply the SW:P and VE if I think the mob will live long enough or I know I'm not going to fear it while I'm moving. VE isn't used if the mob isn't gonna hurt me. SW:P does get used because the DPM gets very good when you factor in shadow form and the extra shadow damage talents, the fact that you get more +shadow gear and the more noticable affect of shadow weaving, and the mobs will still live for most if not all the ticks. The reason is Mind Flay has a shorter range and if you can start it at max range you can pretty much always get 2 of them in before the mob is melee range. If you pull with a DOT you will often have to drop the first MB or drop a flay before it gets to you. Since PW:S is horrible on the mana effieciency I try to avoid casting it at all. If I do feel I need to cast it for stutter prevention (i.e. I won't be able to kill it with a MB and a few wands when it is on me) then I cast it before I pull. If I put a shield up I probably don't need the healing of VT unless I'm already down health. If I'm using VT as part of a healing cycle then I will preshield and pull with SW:P because I'll have the shield up to prevent stutter on flay so I'm just working flay in around the CD on MB.

Regardless if you aren't going to get at least 5 ticks (15 seconds of the mob being alive) in you probably shouldn't bother casting it. If you don't need to heal and the mob isn't going to touch you don't waste time and mana on VE.

Now, I never had VT for long. I got it got to L51 and decided I just didn't want to be shadow anymore (I started as shadow at L28 or so I was holy before then) so I went to a holy build and stayed with that till L67 when I just stopped playing the toon (the reason? I had converted my shaman from enh to resto since I was healing more in PvP anyway so I had a capped healer and there was little motivation to push the priest the rest of the way). Things could have started to change drastically after L50 but pre L50 with my experimentation most of the time it was worse to pull with SW:P than with MB and the main reason was so that I could always get 2xMF in without getting hit and that generally meant I didn't need to waste any mana on PW:S at all unless it was a tougher mob I was wanting to get some health back. Spirit tap increases your health regen too so often it just didn't matter, though I was a troll so maybe the fact that I got some health regen from spirit while in combat made more of a difference but I doubt it was that big a deal.

[TriggerHappy]

Ok, a few things.

First, I have Spirit Tap at 5/5, I played around with Blackout in the earlier levels but specced out of it a awhile ago, having found it not that useful. I don't see how I could play this Priest without Spirit Tap, frankly.

I got a level 17 Mage, and I notice that the conjured water is never really "up to date". That is, it seems like I can buy water that offers higher mana per 5 second regenration.

My ThrakPriest now has +50 spell damage and +90 healing. I managed to strike a balance between killing speed and recovery. As a result, this character takes on mobs 3-4 levels above with relative ease (yes I'm aware it's more efficient to kill even level mobs, but I was on a quest that I half completed already).

My spell rotation kills things pretty well and I almost never have to heal. At level 35 it goes like this:

1. Power Word: Shield
2. Mind Blast from max range
3. Shadow Word: Pain while backing up
4. Mind Flay
5. Mind Blast again
6. Wand to death from 35-40% of mob health

Sometimes on mobs 3-4 levels above I have to shield again before beginning to wand. Inner Fire is always up as well.

So I've basically decided to stack +Spell Damage and +Spirit gear from this point on.

[Sheep]

1. Power Word: Shield
2. Mind Blast from max range
3. Shadow Word: Pain while backing up
4. Mind Flay
5. Mind Blast again
6. Wand to death from 35-40% of mob health

Power Word: Shield is the least mana efficient "heal". Unless the uninterruptibility aspect is crucial, any other of your healing spells will make your mana last longer.

[Lissa]

Inefficient.

Max range: Mind Blast >strafe > SW:P while strafing> Mind Flay>Mind Flay> Wand.

There's no need to waste mana on vampiric embrace as they're not going to damage you overmuch anyway providing you're grinding on the proper mobs and quests. As for PW:S, since there's little reason to cast with a mob in melee given the -hp% that the alpha strike provides and the dps of SW:P on the mob means that the mob isn't going to be in your face that long, so uninterruptability isn't of great value. Past 50 substitute the opening MB for VT. Now, if you're working on +1-+4 quests/mobs, instead of efficiently grinding out green, then heavier mana usage rotations per mob might be called for. Either way, if you have room to strafe, use that to gain range instead of backing up, will typically allow for a half to most of a full Mind Flay with just that change.

Cheers,
~Frag

It may be inefficient, but the importance of starting this way is to get you into the good habit of following this method for when you get higher and you are assured to see fights that last the majority of a SW:P. If you get into the mind set of dropping the DoTs first along with VE, you are getting into best practices for things like instance fights where dropping a Mind Blast or SW:Death right off will pull aggro and get the mob on you instead of the tank.

Also, if he has 5/5 Shadow Focus, he should be taking on mobs that are 2 or 3 levels up as he has built in 10% spell hit (16% spell hit being maximum for hittings mob +3 levels).

[Treesh]

It may be inefficient, but the importance of starting this way is to get you into the good habit of following this method for when you get higher and you are assured to see fights that last the majority of a SW:P. If you get into the mind set of dropping the DoTs first along with VE, you are getting into best practices for things like instance fights where dropping a Mind Blast or SW:Death right off will pull aggro and get the mob on you instead of the tank.

Also, if he has 5/5 Shadow Focus, he should be taking on mobs that are 2 or 3 levels up as he has built in 10% spell hit (16% spell hit being maximum for hittings mob +3 levels).

There's a difference between habit and just blindly mashing the same key sequence every time. Really, the best habit to get into is choosing the proper spell rotation for the situation. If you get too set in "I always cast things this way" then you end up lost when things go wrong and you need to assess and adapt on the fly. So, really, learn the best sequence for solo, the best sequence for small group, the best sequence for large group and you'll end up with a much better array of tools in your toolbox and hopefully the ability to choose the proper tools for the job.

[Lissa]

There's a difference between habit and just blindly mashing the same key sequence every time. Really, the best habit to get into is choosing the proper spell rotation for the situation. If you get too set in "I always cast things this way" then you end up lost when things go wrong and you need to assess and adapt on the fly. So, really, learn the best sequence for solo, the best sequence for small group, the best sequence for large group and you'll end up with a much better array of tools in your toolbox and hopefully the ability to choose the proper tools for the job.

Except at higher levels, the spell rotation I've stated becomes the most efficient rotation. Getting locked into the idea of the early rotation being a good rotation as you get higher and higher sets you into bad habits that become hard to break.

It's similar to leveling an affiction warlock and I shake my head everytime I see someone complain about how they can't work with their Blueberry to have him hold aggro and when you find out their rotation, you just have to wonder. Casting something like Mind Blast first is akin to sending in your Blueberry and casting Immolation first followed up by Corruption and Curse of Agony. You'll rip the mob off the Blueberry by following a rotation like that and the same thing happens if you get into the idea of soloing starting off with Mind Blast first when dealing with a tank. Starting with your DoTs prepares you in more ways that one and while it may be inefficient at low levels, it teachs you fundamentals that will help you in all environments later in the game, be it soloing, small group, 5 man instance, 10 man raid, and 25 man raid. It is better to build off inefficency at lower levels to have you in the mindset you need for the upper levels because what appears efficient at lower levels is going to be problematic at higher levels.

[Taelas]

Locking yourself into a spell rotation as a "habit" is bad, period. Flexibility is the key.

[NiteFox]

Locking yourself into a spell rotation as a "habit" is bad, period. Flexibility is the key.

(*Psst* Hey, I'm a hunter. We've only got one valid shot rotation:P)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with habit, just so long as you control it rather than let it control you. As mentioned, flexibility is key, but so is observation and, often, precognition. Being able to recognise when things are due to go south before they do is a lot better than merely adjusting to when they do.

I can see the perils of locking into a set pattern. It teaches complacency, it teaches that This Pattern Works Forever And Always. Over the few years I've been playing, I've seen how easy it is to just repeat the same process and never get into any really bad situations. It was a pattern I got into quite early, and I still remember that my first instance run was a near-disaster (RFC, and yes that was down to a combination of poor tanking, poor DPS, and sub-par healing. We were all learning, and somehow we all survived).

So if this suggestion isn't too heretical to the Lurkers around me, consider this: Practice getting things wrong.

Now, I don't mean sign up to the next instance run you can get a slot in and overaggro/underheal/generally act like a doofus, but during your next solo adventure collecting ten buzzard asses in the middle of nowhere try to make your fights as complicated and tricky as possible. See how far along the curve of catastrophe you can skirt, and see just how far you can get a situation to go rotten before you simply can't pull it back.

For instance, I'm currently playing a game with myself called "How Many Overmine Flayers Can Cannis Handle While I Try To Keep Him Alive?", I set my pet at a Flayer on the Netherwing Ledge, but not the nearest but rather the furthest away he can target while also triggering a whole bunch of them while Misdirecting more onto him; now try and keep him alive, and if I peel any of the pack off him, send 'em back. Not exactly PETA-approved, and I don't have Improved Mend Pet to deal with all those Rends, but it's very good practice for an overpull.

I've even reversed the game; set my pet onto something, then pull as much as I can onto myself; then dealing with trapping and generally limiting damage to my own hide while also trying to concentrate on my pet's target.

No doubt there's a lot of similar games you could play with your chosen class. Push the envelope a little, by all means learn how to get things right, but also get things wrong and learn how to deal with that. And don't wait until your in the middle of an instance.

Edit for mistaken identity

[Frag]

Casting something like Mind Blast first is akin to sending in your Blueberry and casting Immolation first followed up by Corruption and Curse of Agony.

I knew what you were talking about in the analogy and still got a little lost on this sentence. Adding "in a group" after Mind Blast would have made the point much easier to parse. Given that this is advice for a newbie we should probably be clear as possible in our discussion.

Treesh is 100% correct about the fac that there is a "proper" rotation for different settings. Flexibility then can counter the "comfortable" rotation that some use in every situation.

The rotation I outlined above was for solo/small group pve while leveling and I should have made that more clear.

Cheers,
~Frag B)

[Lissa]

Locking yourself into a spell rotation as a "habit" is bad, period. Flexibility is the key.

And people telling him to go with what is the most efficient now is going to get him into trouble in the future and lead to wasted damage and potentially other issues. Efficiency does not always equate with flexibility. You lay down DoTs first because before they even tick, you get the Shadow Weaving debuff going. You Mind Blast, SW:Death, or Mind Flay to begin with and you lower your potential DPS. This is not about efficiency, it's about learning what to do to maximize your effective damage output while also learning how to effectively control your threat level, this lends more to flexibility than efficiency does. Given threat doesn't matter in solo, but learning best practices in solo will also benefit you in group play.

Case in point, what happens when he uses one of these so call Alpha Strikes of dropping a Mind Blast first when he's nearing 70 and the damage the MB does after +shadow/+spell damage only takes the mob down 10% to 15% at most? How about the push back he gets from being hit while casting Mind Flay because Shadow Priests don't have an anti-push back talent thus making PW:S so valuable and why you cast it?

[Kevin]

Case in point, what happens when he uses one of these so call Alpha Strikes of dropping a Mind Blast first when he's nearing 70 and the damage the MB does after +shadow/+spell damage only takes the mob down 10% to 15% at most? How about the push back he gets from being hit while casting Mind Flay because Shadow Priests don't have an anti-push back talent thus making PW:S so valuable and why you cast it?

You adjust. It takes about one mob to realize that you need to either fear or PW:S to avoid push back. And as Xarhud said you know the mob you are fighting. Many of them attack slow enough that even without shield you can get 2 ticks of MF off no problem. The guy has a mind he has the ability to experiment and adjust. And has been mentioned there is no difference in the damage you get from SW:P if you cast it first or if you cast MB first because it takes 3s for the first damage to tick so the first tick will have 2 applications up, either way. There are also plenty of places where fearing the mob works just as well if not better than shielding you can play a shadow priest similar to certain lock specs as well even if the toolset is more limited.

And again as Klaus said

I do a lot of farming these days with VT->SWP->VE->Flay->wand. The VE keeps the health level up without having to worry about it very often.

Which is better than casting SW:P first yet again because VT applies shadow weaving, pain applies weaving and VE applies weaving all before pain ticks. You cast pain first and with the way GCD and timing works you may or not not have the 3rd application up before pain ticks.

There is 1 place where casting SW:P first may be better. In a group. That is it. That is the only place. There is NO solo situation where it is better. It can be better to start with some of the instant cast DoTs but VT or VE is better to start with than pain.


Of course the biggest reason that I brought up holy fire is simply because very few people would even consider it at that stage of the game because it isn't a shadow spell. But as mentioned at that stage of the game there is very little gear that has just +shadow and with it's huge wind up and part of it's damage being spread out to a DoT it's even safe to use in groups if the tank has any skill at all. You ditch it when you get shadow form or slightly before if you get a lot of +shadow gear. But it's fun. It's unexpected and it also works out to be higher DPS and higher mana efficiency. Why not point it out.

It doesn't take long to learn a new rotation or change habits for most people. We aren't programming robots here, we are giving advice to people who can think and adapt. I'm attacking your advice because I simply see no situation where casting SW:P first other than in some group situations (where it could be argued that VE or VT is still better) is the best way to go. I also don't see how our advice gets him in trouble as the first basic advice for groups is don't even start to cast a spell until the tank has hit the mob in melee range. That is where you should always start in group play and then work up fro that till you know what the tank is like. Any tank that has any skill can deal with a MB that comes 1.5s after he is at melee range. If you start the MB BEFORE the tank is engaged then your actually looking at a different issue with the play style in my book.

[TriggerHappy]

Well, I've already changed my spell rotation several times, because the usefulness of spells and their order of casting changes from mob to mob and as levels go on. I don't see myself ever getting locked into one spell rotation even at 70, as after all, I do have a brain.:)
I fully expect, for example, to be opening up with Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain (DoTs + mana regen) when I hit level 50. Right now the most efficient way is to open up with a Mind Blast. One, because I solo and thus don't have to worry about pulling aggro off the tank with a nuke. Two, because as was mentioned earlier, I move 1.5 seconds of cast time to "out of combat" time. And as SW: P is my second cast spell, I "lose" at most a single tick of it.

As for using Power Word: Shield ... I fully expect it to start scaling less and less well with mob damage in future levels, but at level 35, I've noticed it's more efficient to cast the Shield for 210 mana, not have to heal at all and not have to replenish Inner Fire after 2-3 mobs. Because they do reach me and as I don't yet have Shadow Form, they hit pretty damn hard (after the reach me through Mind Flay). Needing to heal up the damage after a fight, would cost me a minimum of 305 mana for a Heal. Thus I save 95 mana by using shield.

Indeed, often I kill a mob so fast (if I get a crit on Mind Blast) that I move to another mob immediately as my Spirit Tap fades and the new mob is still beating up on the "old" Shield.

But as I said, eventually the mobs will out-scale the shield provided HP, but Shadow Form will compensate for it (15% reduced physical damage takes effect before the shield damage is subtracted, IIRC). And by shielding before the fight starts, I can re-shield again mid fight if necessary.
This allows me to focus on +spell damage, +spirit and +intelligence gear (with the next patch in mind), essentially translating mana into health, and not have to worry much about +stamina gear for PvE.

Lastly, perhaps I'm wrong, but not healing in solo PvE is probably good practice for the time when I get Shadow Form.:)

[Klaus]

Lastly, perhaps I'm wrong, but not healing in solo PvE is probably good practice for the time when I get Shadow Form.:)

You're not wrong. :) I heal when I get into deep trouble, and that's it. I'll either take on the next mob and use VE to refill (I've actually been known to say "Darn it, I'm down 40%. I need a mob to kill") or I'll eat or bandage. These days I have the never-ending "food" supply (underspore pod), which give health -and- mana for eating them, so I use those.

[Lissa]

You adjust. It takes about one mob to realize that you need to either fear or PW:S to avoid push back. And as Xarhud said you know the mob you are fighting.

PW:S is preferable to PS because you could end up with other mobs being involved. Likewise, more often then not you will kill the mob and still have some of your PW:S left for the next mob. Another thing to consider about why PS would be a worse choice, fear breaks much, much easier now on damage, I rarely see a PS last to full length now even with low amounts of damage.

Many of them attack slow enough that even without shield you can get 2 ticks of MF off no problem. The guy has a mind he has the ability to experiment and adjust. And has been mentioned there is no difference in the damage you get from SW:P if you cast it first or if you cast MB first because it takes 3s for the first damage to tick so the first tick will have 2 applications up, either way.

The problem with putting a non-DoT ahead of a DoT is you lose the effect of the first Shadoweaving Debuff, this is why DoTs go up first, to increase damage output. Applying the DoTs will give you 1 go 2 Shadoweave debuffs on the mob before your first DD hits, thus giving that DD an additional 2% to 4% damage. Putting the DD in first means it gets no additional benefit as the Shadoweaving is applied after the spell hits the target.

There are also plenty of places where fearing the mob works just as well if not better than shielding you can play a shadow priest similar to certain lock specs as well even if the toolset is more limited.

Some yes, but the benefit of PW:S is it in all likelihood, you may still have some of it left when you finish off one mob to move onto another. Also, unlike Affliction Warlocks with their Yo-yo pulling, Shadow Priests do not have the same amount of health and do not have the ability to drop multiple VEs quickly where as a Warlock is dropping Siphon Life on every mob. Trying to Yo-yo pull as a Shadow Priest is dangerous and leads to more downtime than a Warlock would see (the Warlocks typically are spending their downtime picking up loot as they're already near full health and mana when the Yo-yo pulling finishes while a Shadow Priest would be low in health and mana).

And again as Klaus said
Which is better than casting SW:P first yet again because VT applies shadow weaving, pain applies weaving and VE applies weaving all before pain ticks. You cast pain first and with the way GCD and timing works you may or not not have the 3rd application up before pain ticks.

Seems everyone ignored the part where I said sub 50. You always start with DoTs when you have Shadoweaving because it gives you more Shadoweaving debuffs on the mob before you hit with the DD spells. Also, VE is not a damage spell and does not apply Shadoweaving debuffs to the mobs.

There is 1 place where casting SW:P first may be better. In a group. That is it. That is the only place. There is NO solo situation where it is better. It can be better to start with some of the instant cast DoTs but VT or VE is better to start with than pain.

No, it is always preferable to start with a DoT once you have Shadoweaving to maximize your damage and your efficiency, especially later in the game while soloing. SW:P and VT should also be the first two spells cast once you get to 50 with VT going first.

Of course the biggest reason that I brought up holy fire is simply because very few people would even consider it at that stage of the game because it isn't a shadow spell. But as mentioned at that stage of the game there is very little gear that has just +shadow and with it's huge wind up and part of it's damage being spread out to a DoT it's even safe to use in groups if the tank has any skill at all. You ditch it when you get shadow form or slightly before if you get a lot of +shadow gear. But it's fun. It's unexpected and it also works out to be higher DPS and higher mana efficiency. Why not point it out.

I understand the point, but the problem is once you have Shadoweaving and VE, you're much better casting SW:P, VE, and then Mind Blast or Mind Flay as the mob comes in and using a wand. The thing is that people may also be forgetting here as you level, you want to make sure that for the last 5 seconds the mob is alive that you are not casting spells, either letting the DoTs kill the mob or wanding it down so you're outside the 5 second rule and therefore Spirit Tap is working at maximum effectiveness to get your mana back up.

It doesn't take long to learn a new rotation or change habits for most people. We aren't programming robots here, we are giving advice to people who can think and adapt. I'm attacking your advice because I simply see no situation where casting SW:P first other than in some group situations (where it could be argued that VE or VT is still better) is the best way to go. I also don't see how our advice gets him in trouble as the first basic advice for groups is don't even start to cast a spell until the tank has hit the mob in melee range. That is where you should always start in group play and then work up fro that till you know what the tank is like. Any tank that has any skill can deal with a MB that comes 1.5s after he is at melee range. If you start the MB BEFORE the tank is engaged then your actually looking at a different issue with the play style in my book.

As I stated above, the reason for the DoTs first is always to get Shadoweaving started to get maximum effective damage. Starting with the DoTs get your 1 to 2 free stacks of Shadoweaving which is very useful.

Also, I have seen plenty of PuG tanks that a single Mind Blast after they're made an attack lose the mob. As such, it's better to be prepared for that eventuality than to not.

[Klaus]

PW:S is preferable to PS because you could end up with other mobs being involved. Likewise, more often then not you will kill the mob and still have some of your PW:S left for the next mob. Another thing to consider about why PS would be a worse choice, fear breaks much, much easier now on damage, I rarely see a PS last to full length now even with low amounts of damage.
The problem with putting a non-DoT ahead of a DoT is you lose the effect of the first Shadoweaving Debuff, this is why DoTs go up first, to increase damage output. Applying the DoTs will give you 1 go 2 Shadoweave debuffs on the mob before your first DD hits, thus giving that DD an additional 2% to 4% damage. Putting the DD in first means it gets no additional benefit as the Shadoweaving is applied after the spell hits the target.
Some yes, but the benefit of PW:S is it in all likelihood, you may still have some of it left when you finish off one mob to move onto another. Also, unlike Affliction Warlocks with their Yo-yo pulling, Shadow Priests do not have the same amount of health and do not have the ability to drop multiple VEs quickly where as a Warlock is dropping Siphon Life on every mob. Trying to Yo-yo pull as a Shadow Priest is dangerous and leads to more downtime than a Warlock would see (the Warlocks typically are spending their downtime picking up loot as they're already near full health and mana when the Yo-yo pulling finishes while a Shadow Priest would be low in health and mana).
Seems everyone ignored the part where I said sub 50. You always start with DoTs when you have Shadoweaving because it gives you more Shadoweaving debuffs on the mob before you hit with the DD spells. Also, VE is not a damage spell and does not apply Shadoweaving debuffs to the mobs.
No, it is always preferable to start with a DoT once you have Shadoweaving to maximize your damage and your efficiency, especially later in the game while soloing. SW:P and VT should also be the first two spells cast once you get to 50 with VT going first.

I understand the point, but the problem is once you have Shadoweaving and VE, you're much better casting SW:P, VE, and then Mind Blast or Mind Flay as the mob comes in and using a wand. The thing is that people may also be forgetting here as you level, you want to make sure that for the last 5 seconds the mob is alive that you are not casting spells, either letting the DoTs kill the mob or wanding it down so you're outside the 5 second rule and therefore Spirit Tap is working at maximum effectiveness to get your mana back up.
As I stated above, the reason for the DoTs first is always to get Shadoweaving started to get maximum effective damage. Starting with the DoTs get your 1 to 2 free stacks of Shadoweaving which is very useful.

Also, I have seen plenty of PuG tanks that a single Mind Blast after they're made an attack lose the mob. As such, it's better to be prepared for that eventuality than to not.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I find that PWS is a big waste of mana in almost any situation, and using it leads to more downtime than anything else I can do. I also find that the "lost" damage from not getting shadow vul. up for the mind blast is more than offset by the use of the "out of combat" cast time at the start of the pull. Finally, if you can't learn to play differently in a group than you do solo, you have larger issues than your spell rotation.

Of course, after level 50, I start with VT to get the out-of-combat cast time, and that's a dot, which fits with your theory. However, I almost never use mind blast except on tough mobs, because I find that to be the 2nd biggest mana hog leading to downtime. If the dots and the wand are going to kill it before I'm too low on health, I'll let them do it because it's mana already spent. If I want to speed it up a bit, I'll sometimes add SWD to finish them off (but this is rare because SWD is expensive, too). I do look to see if I need new buffs (inner fire, fort) and try to cast them before the dots kill the target so as not to completely disrupt the spirit tap (waiting the 15secs for tap to expire is better, but I'm not that patient).

Hmm. Now that I think about it, there's a mechanic to Spirit Tap that I'll need to go explicitly test for myself. My impression has always been that the instant you get a tap, you go to full out-of-5-second rule regen with double spirit. If you then cast a spell during the tap, it drops to half. Your assertion is that it will go to half if you've cast a spell within the last 5 seconds before a tap. I'm also going to check to see if VE applies shadow weaving, because I know it stacks the Darmoon Card (crusader) and I thought it stacked weaving, but I'm not positive. Funny how you can play a class for years and not recall these things, isn't it? :)

[Chesspiece_face]

Ok, a few things.

First, I have Spirit Tap at 5/5, I played around with Blackout in the earlier levels but specced out of it a awhile ago, having found it not that useful. I don't see how I could play this Priest without Spirit Tap, frankly.

I just found this thread so i'm not going to comment on the multitude of spell rotations etc. there are a lot of valid cast rotations depending on your needs at the time. What i will say is that Spirit Tap is probably the best T1 Talant imho. as long as you are leveling solo ALWAYS have this talant. I'll also note at this point how important it is to keep your wand up to date for a priest. While you are leveling a shadow priest your wand will be doing a lot of your work (especially if you are balancing your mana use with your use of Spirit Tap.) Best Case Scenario you should fire off your opening volley of spells while pulling a mob and then begin wanding when the mob is down to between 30-40% health. (this changes later after mobs gain more health, but not by much as long as you keep you wand up to date) By going into wanding this early you sacrifice some of your health in the fight in exchange for your mana regen knowing that Spirit Tap will kick in. It's much easier, and quicker, to heal yourself after a fight than to regen your mana. Once you get good at balancing your health and mana by wanding earlier into a fight you can keep yourself at about 70-80% health mana pretty much all the time with no downtime. All because of the beauty of Spirit Tap.

Because of the strength of Spirit Tap I also reccomend loading up on spirit equipment especially in the earlier levels. If i had the choice of deciding between spell damage/healing or even Int, I would choose spirit every time.

So I've basically decided to stack +Spell Damage and +Spirit gear from this point on.

I love my Spirit.

[TriggerHappy]

Progress report.:)

After getting that Priest to 40, and realizing Shadowform wasn't the best thing since sliced breat I imagined in my mind, and getting tired with the play style in general, I decided to give another shot to the antithesis of the Priest ... the Mage.
I leveled her up as Arcane till about 20, then switched to Frost until 42, and I was absolutely incredulous at what even the supposedly least damaging of the trees could do. The survivability, ironically, was better than on my Hunter, Priest or Druid. I had occasions where I took on 4-5 mobs just below my level and nonetheless won with HP and mana to spare. Stacking spell damage is incredibly powerful, as I found out. At one point, I had +174 frost spell damage at level 42. And the number of crits one gets with the Frost tree borders on ridiculous.

But eventually I got bored of spamming Frostbolt, and decided to try Fire.
Oh dear god I had no idea. Even without Combustion, most things die before they ever reach me. I have slightly less +spell damage to fire (+160), but it hardly matters, since Pyroblast and Fireball get higher coefficients than Frostbolt. I have never killed mobs faster or leveled faster with any other character.
The survivability and control over mobs isn't even half as good, but I found that most of the time it hardly matters. I can still use Blastwave, Frost Nova, Sheep and Blink to escape from bad situations. I do miss Ice Barrier, though. Mana Shield is such an inferior alternative.

Tashunke is now level 48 (almost 49) and sticking with Fire. I may switch back to Frost to try out that Elemental pet, but first I want to see Dragon's Breath.