Danes feel Obama is greater than Jesus

[--Pete]

Hi,

Why all this whining on about books that have been written 1000, 2000 or even more years ago.
How can you take anything serious from a time in which people didn't know that the Americas existed, or how rain is formed, or what DNA is, or what stars and planets are and most importantly had no tools and knowledge to find out where they came from.

Our mathematics are based on concepts developed by the Greeks -- they are the ones who came up with ideas like 'axioms', 'theorems', 'logical proofs'. Indeed, we still study plane geometry the way Euclid taught it. The same is true of our philosophy and, with a Judeo-Christian mixture, our morality. Archimedes had no idea of the subjects you mention, yet he got the concept of density right -- and damn near invented calculus about two millenia before Newton/ Leibniz. The Iliad and the Odyssey, not to mention Gilgamesh are still fascinating reading some three millenia after they were written down (and who knows how many millenia since they were first told orally).

Do you even know why we have a seven day week?

--Pete

[eppie]

Hi,
Our mathematics are based on concepts developed by the Greeks -- they are the ones who came up with ideas like 'axioms', 'theorems', 'logical proofs'. Indeed, we still study plane geometry the way Euclid taught it. The same is true of our philosophy and, with a Judeo-Christian mixture, our morality. Archimedes had no idea of the subjects you mention, yet he got the concept of density right -- and damn near invented calculus about two millenia before Newton/ Leibniz. The Iliad and the Odyssey, not to mention Gilgamesh are still fascinating reading some three millenia after they were written down (and who knows how many millenia since they were first told orally).

Do you even know why we have a seven day week?

--Pete

Of course, people also discovered fire and invented the wheel long time ago and we still used it....you know what I meant. I don't go around and declare war after having read the illiad.

I don't agree fully with our morality though; I think our morality is based on some things that were logical and normal before the invention of Christianity, and further remodeled (removing all the murderous bits mentioned before in this thread) by atheists-avant-a-lettre.
But before going on, I should probably know your definition of morality.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Of course, people also discovered fire and invented the wheel long time ago and we still used it....you know what I meant. I don't go around and declare war after having read the illiad.

I do. :whistling:

But before going on, I should probably know your definition of morality.

Well, I guess I should start by saying that I distinguish between 'morals' and 'ethics'. The difference between them is more in connotation than in denotation, so let me explain. Morals have a connotation of 'virtue' and 'holiness' while 'ethics' have more to do with 'fairness' and 'honesty'. Morals are often based on authority, usually religious. Ethics are based on common sense, logic, rational behavior. Note that the two are not contradictory. Indeed there is a lot of overlap.

And before I get nitpicked, yes, I am using 'ethics' in the sense of 'applied ethics' and not in the strict sense of a branch of philosophy.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Jesus says, over and over and over, that anyone who does not accept his message is going to be cast into hell by God. Wailing and gnashing of teeth, and all that.

He draws a clear distinction between sin and sinner, however, despising the former, and loving the latter.

He is not shy about saying so - he goes to the temple and kicks over the stands of moneychangers.

That act of civil disobedience is more complicated than just a random act of rage. At that time, Jews from all over the area would come to sacrifice an animal at the temple, a dove for little sins, and maybe a baby goat or lamb for bigger sins. Many people could not bring an animal with them, so had to buy an animal in Jerusalem. The vendors had set up their animal pens within the temple (considered holy), and the money changers were converting coins to the common currency at hugely inflated rates, and in other words ripping people off right there in the holy temple. Hence, why he said, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers."

He stands up and publicly declares that existing religious authorities are simply hypocrites who are going to burn for eternity. His tolerance extends to everyone - so long as they accept his message - not just the "total love for humanity" bit, but the "I am the messiah" bit, too. Anyone who doesn't, even family members, are to be cast aside, because the end times are coming, and they will all burn in hell. Horrible calamities are to be expected, because the world is living in sin, and can expect no better than Sodom and Gomorrah when God decides it's all over.

This is also more nuanced. The religious authorities were very focused on the letter of the law, and no matter how immoral their intentions, and actions, as long as they remained true to the letter of the law they believed they were right with God. What Jesus preached that was different was that you needed to be right with God in your head and heart as well. This is why he declared many of the Pharisees hypocrites.

This sounds like Fred Phelps' message almost word for word. This is not surprising, since his message is based on a very direct, very strict reading of the Bible. Almost everything he says or does, regardless of how inflammatory, hateful, or simply insane, is taken straight from scripture. It's uncomfortable in the extreme, but he's not joking - it's all in there somewhere between Genesis and Revelations.

Phelps is nothing like him, really. Phelps congregation stays small because he is extremely quick to label and alienate almost everyone around him, excepting his own family (and even some of them have left to become excommunicated).

More on the rest later.

[Zenda]

The vendors had set up their animal pens within the temple (considered holy), and the money changers were converting coins to the common currency at hugely inflated rates, and in other words ripping people off right there in the holy temple. Hence, why he said, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers."

That may be your interpretation, but the passage in question shows clearly enough that Jesus simply wanted to restrict all activities in *his* temple to praying. Even carrying of bags was not allowed. If he cared about the prices, there would have been some mention of it, don't you think?

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2006/20060407.htm

"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the Temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the Temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the Temple. And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My House shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy Him: for they feared Him, because all the people was astonished at His doctrine." (Mark 11:15-18)

[kandrathe]

That may be your interpretation, but the passage in question shows clearly enough that Jesus simply wanted to restrict all activities in *his* temple to praying. Even carrying of bags was not allowed. If he cared about the prices, there would have been some mention of it, don't you think? "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the Temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the Temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the Temple. And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My House shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy Him: for they feared Him, because all the people was astonished at His doctrine." (Mark 11:15-18)

This is a great example for how translations are misinterpreted. It's not vessels, it's merchandise. Vendors were strolling throughout the holy courtyards hawking their wares much like vendors at a sports stadium, "Prayer beads, get your ice cold prayer beads!"

[eppie]

This is a great example for how translations are misinterpreted. It's not vessels, it's merchandise. Vendors were strolling throughout the holy courtyards hawking their wares much like vendors at a sports stadium, "Prayer beads, get your ice cold prayer beads!"

Dog's tongues. Otter's noses. Occelot spleens.

For the rest; are we talking about wrong translations of writings by people that probably have never even seen a likely fictional character? Not much basis for a discussion based on hard facts if you ask me.

[Zenda]

This is a great example for how translations are misinterpreted. It's not vessels, it's merchandise.

He didn't allow any commercial activities, that's right. He wanted respect for his church, not fair prices for customers. The word 'thieves' has nothing to do with stealing here, but is instead a reference to the following passage.

"Don’t be fooled into thinking that you will never suffer because the Temple is here. It’s a lie! Do you really think you can steal, murder, commit adultery, lie, and burn incense to Baal and all those other new gods of yours, and then come here and stand before me in my Temple and chant, 'We are safe!'—only to go right back to all those evils again? Don’t you yourselves admit that this Temple, which bears my name, has become a den of thieves? Surely I see all the evil going on there. I, the Lord, have spoken!" (Jeremiah 7:8-11)

[eppie]

He didn't allow any commercial activities, that's right. He wanted respect for his church, not fair prices for customers. The word 'thieves' has nothing to do with stealing here, but is instead a reference to the following passage.

I think he was mainly pointing at the music industry.

[kandrathe]

He didn't allow any commercial activities, that's right. He wanted respect for his church, not fair prices for customers. The word 'thieves' has nothing to do with stealing here, but is instead a reference to the following passage.

"Don’t be fooled into thinking that you will never suffer because the Temple is here. It’s a lie! Do you really think you can steal, murder, commit adultery, lie, and burn incense to Baal and all those other new gods of yours, and then come here and stand before me in my Temple and chant, 'We are safe!'—only to go right back to all those evils again? Don’t you yourselves admit that this Temple, which bears my name, has become a den of thieves? Surely I see all the evil going on there. I, the Lord, have spoken!" (Jeremiah 7:8-11)

I would say also in reference back to Jeremiah's warning prior to the temples destruction 500 years earlier. What was happening in the temple was not godly, or respectful of the purpose for which it was built in Jesus opinion. He objected to their using the various halls of prayer as a market. I would conclude also that the pharisee's got some recompense for the marketing within the temple. The house of prayer comment refers to Isaiah 56:7. The temple was subsequently destroyed by the Romans in 70CE.

[Zenda]

What was happening in the temple was not godly, or respectful of the purpose for which it was built in Jesus opinion. He objected to their using the various halls of prayer as a market.

Good. So we can forget about the 'hugely inflated rates', and 'ripping people off' parts?

I would conclude also that the pharisee's got some recompense for the marketing within the temple.

And where might those conclusions be based upon? I see no mentioning of it in these phrases.

[kandrathe]

Good. So we can forget about the 'hugely inflated rates', and 'ripping people off' parts?

No.

And where might those conclusions be based upon? I see no mentioning of it in these phrases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_t...y_Changers

See the bottom, where is starts "Jesus may have been calling for an end to the entire cultic system—"...

I believe he was an egalitarian reformer that saw the Sadducee's as hypocrites exploiting the sick and the poor. Infirmity was an expression of sin, so redemption in the time of the second temple cost extra money in the form of sacrifice and donations to the Temple.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Yes, I'm talking to myself -- indeed, I'm disagreeing (somewhat) with myself. :wacko:

Oh, and by the way, *nothing* separates us from animals.

Just watched Zorba the Greek again -- OK, dance may separate us from the *other* animals.

--Pete