April News/Discussions

[Mordekhuul]

When we were first getting into raiding as a guild, and to some extent with newer raiders now, I certainly noticed that it was the good PVP'ers that had the keyboard bindings, mouse movement skills, and awareness to really shine in our raids.

These days, I'm guessing that there are a lot more interesting 5-man heroic encounters to help reinforce good practices as well (by design).

Excellent point about mixing the two because raid opportunities are much more limited than arena play and battleground play. I was trying to think of a good explanation for why comingling the two is useful, assuming you enjoy both.

In my case, I learned to PVP on my level 60 rogue, my original main, and because of that went to a combination of mouse movement and hotkeys easily strikable with my left hand in normal typing position and my right hand never leaving the mouse that has translated very well across changing mains to a warlock, and now a prot paladin in a raid setting. (I was a dagger rogue, and mouse movement is the fastest way to turn, which was quite important to get behind folks when you couldn't stun them first).

PVP battleground play is a great place to learn to tab target effectively as well, if you ever have trouble finding a desired target when your screen is crowded and mouse clicking with the "v" key options turned on isn't quite cutting it.

*Edited to remove about 100,000 uses of the word ", however" at the end of sentences. What's wrong with me today?

[Kevin]

I still believe, though, that the best way to learn how to survive in PvE is to... PvE. *gasp* :P I'm very wary of people telling raiders to go arena because it'll make them a better raider. Perhaps, but to use a rather weak metaphor, I'd rather they learn how to play football directly, instead of teaching them how to play rugby and then applying those skills to football. Yes, they're similar - but, as even Bolty admitted, they're still different skillsets.

I realize I'm currently barking up the wrong tree with this reply since you understand the issues at hand but I'm commenting on it anyway just because I feel like it. :)

A better metaphor is probably American football players taking dance or martial arts. Something that appears completely different but does give you translatable skills. In the case of the metaphor, balance, flexability, reaction timing, body awareness. Things that are very useful to a football player but are easier to hone outside of playing football because you don't have to try and do other things at the same time in some situations. And in many cases they aren't strictly needed to be successful, but the best players train up every edge they can get.

Morde pointed out many of the WoW specific skills in his post. You don't have to use the mouse for movement to be a very good PvE player and you don't need it to be above average in PvP. But I'm convinced as a 90% keyboard turner that to be the very best you do. The way WoW implements mouse movement is still horribly awkward for me though even after playing a full week with key bindings set up so that I had to use the mouse for movement or I wasn't moving. My hands are too big and I simply don't have a mouse that makes it comfortable to have a button pressed that much. Toggling free mouse is awkward too. I'm very comfortable in FPS games with mouse movement because you don't generally need the mouse to do other things like you do in WoW. But as mentioned PvP success is even more difficult without this skill. I'll never be more than above average at PvP because I can't get myself to be used to how WoW deals with it unless I get a different mouse or want really bad carpel tunnel.

And you are completely correct that a person that only PvPs will not develop the whole PvE skill set. But the very best PvP players can generally translate into PvE better than poor PvP players. The argument goes the other way. The very best PvE players are generally above average at PvP too and they translate into PvP better than an average PvE player. The reason is because they do share skill sets. Generally the very best PvE players have set up good interfaces and keybindings and such that you need in PvP.


I know my interface is not optimal for either PvE or PvP. The problem is if I put 2 hours into making it better I'll end up not wanting to play the game for another 24 hours or so. For some reason it really sucks the fun out of the game for me in the short term even if it makes the long term more fun. I think I understand why too. It's a game. The aspects that feel remotely like work I avoid regardless of how much nicer the gaming experience may be after they are done. I rarely PvP just to get honor or marks. I PvP when I feel like that type of entertainment. I don't do daily quests every day. I them when I feel like doing them. I rarely play the auction house to make money even though when I do I'm quite good at it and can make gold quickly. I don't even raid as much as I can because sometimes I don't want to. Though lately I raid less because I don't want to do the prep work that being the best in a raid requires. I don't want to get the consumables, I don't want to read up on the encounters. I'm very honest about this with the people I raid with. If they don't want me along because of that I'm very understanding of it. Of course I treat my toon as an alt when I do get on a raid because of this. I only get loot if no one else wants it, etc.

That is a PvE skillset to me. Being able to deal with the prep work it takes, I don't have it anymore in this game. Fortunately the PvE game is easy enough and my skill set good enough that folks can fill me in on what I need to know as we go along so I don't slow us down, and there is a group out there that lets me tag along to see the content anyway. I even get to go on a few learning nights. I can slap some gold in the guild bank and get consumables out of it and not feel as bad about it. :)

[LochnarITB]

Who I'm fighting in PvP is irrelevant, and for 99% of the playerbase it's the same thing the other way.

I think you are being generous in saying it only irrationally matters to 1% of the players. But, it doesn't matter. It could be 50% or 1% or .001%. If it is possible to be the only one that does, it is not for me. I feel bad enough when my frostbolt hits that elemental that was hunter marked after I cast it, right up until he scolds me for taking "his" mob. Call me a nice guy or a wuss, they are interchangeable, but that's the way it is.

[Mirajj]

April 22 News
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We start today with a laugh, showing the perils of ganking.

After laughing there, you can wander over to the Blizzard Boards. There is a very interesting case of ninja'ing there. A mage rolled on the +stam warrior trinket over a warrior "for her PvP set". The mage doesn't think she's done anything wrong, and the thread gets enormous.

Scott Andrews continues his article series on Raiding with a Casual Guild.

Ishida007 has spotted some WotLK screenshot leaks that look pretty neat. With it in Alpha stage of the Beta testing, one wonders how far off it is.

[Bob the Beholder]

I think you are being generous in saying it only irrationally matters to 1% of the players. But, it doesn't matter. It could be 50% or 1% or .001%. If it is possible to be the only one that does, it is not for me. I feel bad enough when my frostbolt hits that elemental that was hunter marked after I cast it, right up until he scolds me for taking "his" mob. Call me a nice guy or a wuss, they are interchangeable, but that's the way it is.

My work schedule's kept me from raiding for over a year now, and even before that I was a big PvPer. So at this point, PvP is pretty much all I do with the game. I kind of agree with you, and I kind of agree with Bolty.

I do watch names. I take account of who I'm fighting, and try to remember who they are, in case I fight them again. It's less worthwhile since cross-server battlegrounds rolled around, but still I do see the same people a lot of the times, and I like to know I'm fighting somebody I recognize who might recognize me. This is partly because of basic ego stroking. I don't necessarily want them to get angry and hate me, but when I kill someone I want them to know that I did it, and I want them to know that I can do it again. I want them to pop open the BG tab and go, "Oh god, not that guy!" and warn the rest of the group that they need to take me down first. Basically, I just want recognition. And at the same time, when I see somebody rocking faces and taking names, I give them the same sort of recognition. I don't necessarily get that kind of recognition, since I just don't play enough anymore, to get the high end PvP gear, or to know all of the tricks people are using against me and exactly what I need to do about them, like I did at 60 back in the day. But it's still a goal. I like to have nemeses. And to be one.

But all the same, death in BGs just doesn't matter to me. My main was a mage at 60 for two years. Back then I took Aimed Shots for 1500 over my max hp. A rogue could catch me during a global cooldown and kill me before it ended. I was one-shotted by pretty much every class there is. When you stack spell damage to the detriment of everything else, and start rolling into places with 3200 hp, then you get a pretty cavalier opinion of death. Bolty is correct in that there just has to be some emotional detachment for people to do this very a significant length of time without wanting to throw themselves off a roof. And I know I've played games where it seems like people get really pissed off, but honestly it's just not my fault that they get worked up over it.

And I am generally the nicest guy around, too. I mean, hell, I remember once I was playing a single player RPG and had to do one of those everpresent, "you get to do a trial, yay!" parts they keep putting in, and I ended up telling the judge the wrong guy was guilty. I continued playing for a few hours, but eventually I just felt so damned bad about that NPC that I had to start the whole game over.

[Trien]

Well, as a heavy PvP'er, and a former raider (Kael'thas downed on my last day of raiding, back in November^_^)... I have enjoyed both sides of the game. Being a long-time gamer, raiding to me has been mainly about 'beating the game', like you would in say a single-player game; but it involves a significant social aspect to it as well, in that you have to work together with a other people to make it happen. And while that is in a large part what makes it enjoyable, it's also been a source of significant stress... such that due to changes in job situation and scheduling, I decided to call it quits for 25-man raids at least. I sort of miss the whole getting-everyone-together-as-a-group to accomplish something aspect, but certain frustrations I definitely don't miss.

PvP as mentioned is definitely a lot more manageable on an uncertain schedule. And while I try stay fairly competitive; to me it's all about the battle, not whether I win or lose or what I get out of it. That's probably why I find the whole "let them win I want my free mark" attitude so disgusting. And as mentioned... you do have to not take things personally with deaths to your character... from my FPS history I guess I'm used to that. PvP with its constantly changing situations offers dynamics that no raid encounter does... I enjoy that. Arenas I must admit I find limiting... and hence not quite as fun. The whole drive to be competitive leads to preferred team/spec setups which take away from the dynamics. I still play them (and as a feral druid, no less... I'm here for the fight, not for the do-whatever-it-takes-to-'win', afterall), but quite honestly I miss the days of more world PvP and battlegrounds...

It's a game... gotta have fun, or what's the point in playing? Obviously, what is 'fun' is goind to be different for every person... but that's what I enjoy.

[Gregorius]

I used to think I didn't really like PvP. And still, I'm not the biggest fan of Battlegrounds, where it always feels to me like victory and defeat lie almost completely on the random-ish whim of the queue. I mean, I know I'm not very good, so I don't help much on that front, but even if I was, what can you do when people are just using dumb strategies? If there's one thing I have learned about battlegrounds, it's that you can't go off alone, so singlehandedly carrying a team is infeasible.

When I thought about it though, World PvP, or at least, the sort-of-fair kind, has always been a love of mine. I don't think I have any fonder memory of this game than a skirmish I had years ago on my lowbie druid in the Charred Vale. A few Tauren popped up when I was fighting a mob a couple levels higher than I was, and while running I managed to find a couple of Alliance players who were also questing nearby. For about fifteen minutes we battled through the woods, and I healed and clawed my way through a few quests and these enemy players. At the conclusion was an immensely satisfying feeling. Although I didn't miss getting shanked and ganked by 60's (now 70's, of course) while leveling my characters on Stormrage, the lack of interaction with the opposing faction has always disappointed me (though it'd help if there were any horde, har har).

Arena is something I've just picked up in the past few weeks, since most random people aren't really looking to get destroyed alongside a Resto Shaman in PvP Blues. In the end though, holding out for a team of people I "know," whether intentionally or not, has really given me a positive experience overall. Arena matches are a chance to sit down for an hour and do something different. I don't have to look at all the stuff I have on-screen for raids, I get to watch the action and try to figure out how I can do the most good. And unlike other stuff, I don't have anything to be frustrated about when I die; there's no consumables wasted, the repair costs are tiny, and another round is just a brief queue away. The best part for me is just the experience of interacting with people I've spent time with in raids in a different way, and I don't see myself ever getting uptight about the gear...I just always think of this and laugh. I really hope to do more Arena matches because even if I never get very good it's something I can enjoy any time, briefly, without worrying about anything.

It's a game. The aspects that feel remotely like work I avoid regardless of how much nicer the gaming experience may be after they are done. I rarely PvP just to get honor or marks. I PvP when I feel like that type of entertainment. I don't do daily quests every day. I them when I feel like doing them. I rarely play the auction house to make money even though when I do I'm quite good at it and can make gold quickly. I don't even raid as much as I can because sometimes I don't want to. Though lately I raid less because I don't want to do the prep work that being the best in a raid requires.

This really spoke to me. Right now, I play too much; I really wanted to get caught up with people I play with, to at least some degree, and then when my Shaman hit 70 and stopped getting gear upgrades practically every day, I started to work on my Paladin again. Now she's 70, and starting to close in on the level I'm trying to get to for her (ready for Kara and Heroics, and ultimately ZA...I'd be happy just to get there and surprised to go further).

But really, this is close to where I'd like to see myself. I really enjoy raiding right now, but not so much the preparation, which basically equates to farming up at least 100g for each session to cover food, flasks, and repairs. 2.4 actually eased this for me a lot, since I can stack up LPS's with Void Shatter and then auction them when they're most overpriced, sparing myself several of the dailies that I enjoy the least because of my slow killing speed. I really only make myself enough gold to cover expenses and I'm okay with the fact that I won't be flying around really fast before WotLK (if then!). I just hope I'll be satisfied with what I have, soon, and getting the most enjoyment out of my playing time while letting the mouse rest a little more.

[Mirajj]

News for April 24

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When Drysc announces the S4 Requirements and Arena Changes, it's...not too well received by the gaming populace. Biggest of all is the announcement that some of the gear that would be purchasable only with honor will now carry with them also an Arena rating requirement. Doorf starts it off with Keep your ESport out of my Battlegrounds, and it snowballs from there quite quickly. Many are seeing this as the death knell to the casual Arena team. Time will tell.

[LavCat]

News for April 24

~~~
When Drysc announces the S4 Requirements and Arena Changes, it's...not too well received by the gaming populace. Biggest of all is the announcement that some of the gear that would be purchasable only with honor will now carry with them also an Arena rating requirement. Doorf starts it off with Keep your ESport out of my Battlegrounds, and it snowballs from there quite quickly. Many are seeing this as the death knell to the casual Arena team. Time will tell.

I am in favor of top ranked arena players having distinguishing gear/mounts as a reward for their accomplishments, just as I was for having Field Marshal gear and a battle ram for being a Field Marshal, and I was livid that Blizzard would then give Field Marshal gear away to anyone. However putting arena rating requirements on honor items is the second most discouraging change the developers have yet come up with (the first being the normalization of hunter pets). I read through nine pages of the WoW forum thread. I sincerely hope this change does not go live. One suggestion I could make is to remove arenas from the normal WoW game entirely and limit arena to arena servers.

[NiteFox]

I am in favor of top ranked arena players having distinguishing gear/mounts as a reward for their accomplishments,

They might actually reconsider that gear when they actually see it.

They are, basically, Sunwell Isle set recolours. Personally, when the original sets were leaked I defended them to the dismissive crowds, because they actually did look good. Not spectacular, but good.

Then the S4 recolours were rolled out and, ugh, dear lord...

[LavCat]

Then the S4 recolours were rolled out and, ugh, dear lord...

With all the gold in Blizzard's coffers one would think they could afford to hire another artist. That or buy the rights to Wonder Woman.

[Mirajj]

Apr 29 News
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Bolty starts things off this time around with a Tanking Quiz for everyone. Think you know everything there is to know about tanking? See how you fare on this brain buster!

Scott Andrews finishes up his 4 article series on Casual Raiding with a good post. Great stuff and suggestions all around.

In a move that should make a lot of warriors and shaman happy,with Patch 2.4.2, a lot of the Epic BOP Weaponsmithing weapons are losing their 'unique' and/or 'main-hand' designations.

An interesting discussion starts up here, looking for takes on how to handle Docking DKP. A lot of guilds often struggle with DKP, and what to do with it. Do you dock those underperform? Reward those who do what they're supposed to? This is a pretty decent read.

In addition to the casual raiding article, Adam Holinsky pipes up with 5 Tips to Minimize Raid Downtime. This is a pretty good read, though most of these seem kind of like no-brainers to folks who have been at this for a while.

It seems that it was a bug that was showing the epic Phase 4 gems from the Shattered Sun Offensive at a cost of 10 Badges. Proudmore has raced to the finish line, and unlocked the gem vendor, who sells her wares for 15 Badges.

Had a look through the Blizzard Fanart section lately? There are some beautiful works up there. Well worth a browse.

[Concillian]

In a move that should make a lot of warriors and shaman happy,with Patch 2.4.2, a lot of the Epic BOP Weaponsmithing weapons are losing their 'unique' and/or 'main-hand' designations.

The main interesting point associated with this is DW 2 Dragonstrike hammers. The superior scaling of haste makes these semi-lackluster looking weapons at first appearance (only 97 DPS listed instead of 103 DPS for badge weapons and 107 for sunwell drops) actually factor out to be very strong DPS if you have T6+ gearing level and comparable to the badge weapons if you have T5ish level gear.

Given their relative ease in making (it takes significant mats, but can be entirely soloed with the removal of bindings on Primal Nethers and Nether Vortices), they are an attractive option for people wishing to spend badges on other equipment or gems instead of the weapons.

I already have one Dragonstrike (I bought all the Vortices and Primal Nethers from the AH with money earned from dailies) and will likely forge another just for fun even though I don't DW all that often.

[Sir_Die_alot]

The main interesting point associated with this is DW 2 Dragonstrike hammers. The superior scaling of haste makes these semi-lackluster looking weapons at first appearance (only 97 DPS listed instead of 103 DPS for badge weapons and 107 for sunwell drops) actually factor out to be very strong DPS if you have T6+ gearing level and comparable to the badge weapons if you have T5ish level gear.

Given their relative ease in making (it takes significant mats, but can be entirely soloed with the removal of bindings on Primal Nethers and Nether Vortices), they are an attractive option for people wishing to spend badges on other equipment or gems instead of the weapons.

I already have one Dragonstrike (I bought all the Vortices and Primal Nethers from the AH with money earned from dailies) and will likely forge another just for fun even though I don't DW all that often.

An interesting question: will the haste from using 2 stack? Even if not using one in the OH could be very beneficial.

[Concillian]

An interesting question: will the haste from using 2 stack? Even if not using one in the OH could be very beneficial.

They did initially, but in the current PTR build either hand procs it just refreshes the duration, which pretty much killed any real excitement.

When I did the math on stacking at current proc rate, 2 DS wasn't actually beneficial for warriors (compared to the badge fists, which are kind of the new baseline). DS in main hand can still be as good or better than the MH badge fist (DS gets better with better gear, break even point is somewhere in the late T5 / early T6-ish gear level).

For shaman it's more interesting with the Off-hand proc rate being about the same as the MH proc rate since statistically WF should happen from the OH as often as the MH, and stormstrike is both hands, so it had potential... before the current PTR build.