April News/Discussions

[Mirajj]

Thankfully this isn't the case. No matter what your current content is, upgrading your gear is still a good idea. Yes, you'll replace the epics with greens -- but seeing as the stats are better, who cares? You'd replace the epics with better epics anyway.

The better gear you have going into WotLK, the faster you can level, and the faster you can get back into the raiding game. While PvP gear will of course help, it's just not as good as PvE gear -- mainly due to Resilience.

It was a tongue in cheek poke at those who claimed that the world was ending as they were replacing their hard won epics with "crummy greens" that popped up all over the place with TBC's launch.

[Skandranon]

It was a tongue in cheek poke at those who claimed that the world was ending as they were replacing their hard won epics with "crummy greens" that popped up all over the place with TBC's launch.

It wasn't even true in TBC. Naxx gear lasted until level 70. I expect Sunwell Plateau gear will be useful until 80.

[Mirajj]

It wasn't even true in TBC. Naxx gear lasted until level 70. I expect Sunwell Plateau gear will be useful until 80.

Exactly. But having listened to some of the copius amount of whining that was going on in several places, one would have thought that the world was ending. Heck, even BWL gear was good up to 70. I kept the full DS set until I hit 70, and then until I had several pieces of new stuff, so that when I broke the DS set, it was worth it.

[Kevin]

It wasn't even true in TBC. Naxx gear lasted until level 70. I expect Sunwell Plateau gear will be useful until 80.

I had some BWL gear that was good till 70 on my hunter. Now this was because I didn't have the luck on the better blue drops and since I was exploring the game instead of powering through it there were quest rewards I could have gotten that I wasn't aware of in some cases. But even BWL gear was better than greens and on par with a lot of the blues till nearly level cap even if you were looking to get it replaced as soon as possible.

So I figure that even the MH/TK gear and hence some of the new badge gear will last most of the expansion and as you say Sunwell gear probably till you are in the new raids.

I'm not disagreeing with anything, and I got a chuckle out of Mirajj's statement, just pointing out that even some of the essentially 'intro' raiding gear pre TBC was good for a very long time.

[Concillian]

Exactly. But having listened to some of the copius amount of whining that was going on in several places, one would have thought that the world was ending.

There is no end to the copious amount of whining. People will whine about anything. The sky is always falling.

I'd like to give a recent example, but I'm afraid someone will whine about it :P

[Taelas]

I had some BWL gear that was good till 70 on my hunter. Now this was because I didn't have the luck on the better blue drops and since I was exploring the game instead of powering through it there were quest rewards I could have gotten that I wasn't aware of in some cases. But even BWL gear was better than greens and on par with a lot of the blues till nearly level cap even if you were looking to get it replaced as soon as possible.

So I figure that even the MH/TK gear and hence some of the new badge gear will last most of the expansion and as you say Sunwell gear probably till you are in the new raids.

I'm not disagreeing with anything, and I got a chuckle out of Mirajj's statement, just pointing out that even some of the essentially 'intro' raiding gear pre TBC was good for a very long time.

Indeed. My mage is still pretty much in the gear he hit 70 in (the exception is the bracers):

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xm...hen+Ring&n=Szar

Of that gear, I have two 60 epics, and I only just replaced a ring from 60 as well.

While I was replacing gear all the time while levelling, the idea that you'll replace it all before hitting the cap is almost absurd.

[Concillian]

Here is a preview of what is bound to happen soon after the anvil is done:

http://xs226.xs.to/xs226/08152/badgevendor752.jpg

Imagine a PvP server. Multiply skeletons by eleventy.

[Pantalaimon]

The better gear you have going into WotLK, the faster you can level, and the faster you can get back into the raiding game. While PvP gear will of course help, it's just not as good as PvE gear -- mainly due to Resilience.

Yes, in terms of fighting the more difficult monsters...

(You can probably see the "but" coming from a zillion miles away:P) BUT, coming from a PvP server where we're outnumbered roughly 3 to 1, you'd be nigh-suicidal to wander around in PvE gear EVER. It's pretty much a requirement to do dailies or anything "out and about" as alliance to have 200+ resilience, otherwise you're simply going to get slaughtered over and over, since the horde are so used to their "ground superiority" (thinking Air Superiority in a modern war context, haha) that they'll attack anything on sight.

[Mirajj]

Apr 15 News
~~

We start the day off with a wonderful find by NiteFox over on the Lounge forums. Seems a warlock over on Aman'thul tries to scam the GM's. It takes a bit of time, but the Blizzard response (About halfway down the first page) is utterly wonderful, and full of "own". Folks often don't remember it, but Blizz can see what you are doing in their game, all the time. If you are thinking about not acting in a manner that's acceptable, you don't "get away with it"...it can catch up to you months down the road.

For the curious, it seems that Illidian was not prepared, and Kel'Thuzad emerges the winner of WoWInsider's Two Bosses Enter contest.

It looks like some info about the Brutal Gladiator's Gear (Arena Season 4) has been sussed out via clever use of the Armory. What's left some folks choking is the steep Personal Rating requirement on the epeen parts of this gear. Some are for it, some are against it, and if it goes live, it'll be a lot harder to get, for sure.

Scott Andrews continues his series on making Raiding work with a Casual guild. It is again a very good read, and what I have seen to be one of the hardest parts of raiding in general. Getting folks to buy in, and be ready for when they do go. . Lots of good suggestions and ideas in here, but the main problem still comes down to getting everyone ready and in there.

Mike Schramm has an interesting breakfast topic, what are your favorite/least favorite mobs to grind? Having been one of the few on my server to complete the Winterspring FrostSaber quest before it got ruined, I'd have to say that qualifies as both for me. The reward, an armorless epic frostsaber was everything I thought it'd be, and it's still one of my most 'prized' WoW 'possessions'. However, The grind to get it was horrible, made worse by the fact that a lot of the time, I was competing for the needed kills against either a terrible drop rate, or one to three gold farmers.

After a couple false alarms by the Burning Legion and Area 52 servers, it seems that Proudmoore continues to lead the way in the Shattered Sun Offensive, being the first server to actually reach Phase 4. My server has come along nicely, and gotten the badge vendor up. Expensive gear, but she's been kept quite busy. As well, Premonition on the Alleria server is credited with the First US Kill of the Eredar Twins.

On a topic designed to create discussion, it's asked How Expensive is your DPS? As in, are you cheap dps to mainain, or does it cost you a pretty penny to do the damage you do. Of course the debate rages across all sorts of boundaries. Do consumables count or not? Are repairs part of your dps? Do you get heals? Is the need for heals considered an expense at your dps? Interesting topic, I found.

[Swiss Mercenary]

The better gear you have going into WotLK, the faster you can level, and the faster you can get back into the raiding game. While PvP gear will of course help, it's just not as good as PvE gear -- mainly due to Resilience.

On a PvP server, I'd much rather be leveling 70-80 in PvP gear, then PvE stuff.

[Mirajj]

April 20 News

~~~
Well, over the weekend, Adam Holinsky has sure stirred things up over at WoW Insider. He first wrote Why PvE has been, and will always be, the only real game. He follows that up a bit later with Why the PvP game exists in WoW, and why it's a good thing. As you can imagine, the commentary section goes nuts, with rabid fans of both sides coming out to voice their pleasure or dissent with the line of thought in the Op/Ed style articles. I won't go into my personal feeling on this topic (though the sharp eyed among you may find them in the commentary section...) but it seems to me that a lot of folks are getting worked up over this, and I've long wondered why. PvP'er's claim that their game is the "one true skill", and raiding requires only watching Deadly Boss Mods and/or Omen while PvE'er's claim that PvE is the only "one true skill" as so much is required to make it go right. While arguments abound on both sides, I find it an interesting look at the two main sections of the WoW community, and despite playing the same game in the end, how hard it seems to be for these two sides to even consider co-existing.

[Bolty]

Arguments abound on both sides, and I find it an interesting look at the two main sections of the WoW community, and despite playing the same game in the end, how hard it seems to be for these two sides to even consider co-existing.

I never understood why they can't coexist.

I've seen both sides, though: people who claim that PvP is all there is, and if you don't have a good arena rating it doesn't mean squat what you've done in PvE. Meanwhile, there are those who consider PvP'ers a bunch of dimwitted morons who spend all day checking their epeens. The truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle.

Being in an Illidan-killing guild doesn't mean you're a great player. Having a full set of Season 3 gear doesn't mean you're a great player either. In both cases, you can be carried by better players towards those goals. I'm living proof! :)

A lot of it may come from insecurity. I see many players who, being poor at PvP, declare it as beneath them and that they "hate it." They consistently insult those who like to arena, calling it "welfare epics" and that it's played by kiddies. I shake my head at that...it's just a game. When a player first starts to raid, they suck at it. When a player first starts to PvP, they suck at it. The difference is that when you suck at PvE, you get curbstomped by computer-controlled, emotionless NPCs. When you suck at PvP, you get curbstomped by other players, and some people can't handle that. I really think it's an emotional block that gets in the way.

Learning to be good at PvP is just like learning to be good at PvE. It takes time and experience, and a willingness to get wafflestomped a lot. If a player's ego can't handle that, they turn sour on the whole experience very quickly and never go back.

There are total asshats in PvP. Guess what, there are total asshats in PvE, too: players whose ego is tied to the guild they're in and what it has accomplished. I've seen fantastic PvP'ers who couldn't run PvE instances to save their lives, because they were terrible at it. I've seen godlike PvE raiders who couldn't get higher than the 1500's in arenas. They are two completely different skillsets, yes, but you know what?

The best players I've ever met are those who are good at both. There are aspects from each facet of the game that you can take away to make you better at the other one. Knowledge of what other classes are capable of, situational awareness, response time - all of these translate well to both disciplines. I know that my play in arenas has improved my abilities in raiding, and vice-versa. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I've heard the same from scores of other players as well.

This is why I encourage everyone to form arena teams and just play. Leave the ego at the door, and you might learn something along the way.

-Bolty

[LochnarITB]

When you suck at PvP, you get curbstomped by other players, and some people can't handle that. I really think it's an emotional block that gets in the way.

I loathe pvp. I refuse to pvp. However, I never see anyone discuss the reason, nor do I believe many would even understand the sentiment. It is the converse of the above. "When you're good at PvP, you curbstomp other players, and some people can't handle that." I would probably suck at PvP, but what if I actually became good at it. I know there is a real person controlling that other toon. What if being beaten totally ruins their day? Sure, they put themselves into the game, but that doesn't mean they are emotionally good with it. Maybe their friends coerced them into it. "You wussy, PvP with us!" Perhaps they are pushed into it because Blizzard designed an encounter that requires a PvP reward. "You aren't going to be rostered for this raid unless you PvP to get the trinket, even though there are other ways to handle the encounter." Whatever the reason, they don't want to be curbstomped and I don't want to do so. It is within my control only to keep myself out of that equation. I don't care one bit that my little group of pixels is laying there dead on the screen. In PvP, it doesn't even cost a repair bill (correct?). I don't want to do that to another player, simple as that.

[Bolty]

I know there is a real person controlling that other toon. What if being beaten totally ruins their day? Sure, they put themselves into the game, but that doesn't mean they are emotionally good with it.

I can see where this feeling can come from, Loch. I think it's born of a perception of the aspect of "death" in the game that comes in PvE.

In PvE, when your character dies, it has impact. Right off the bat, any food/elixir buffs you had are lost. 10% of your items' durability is lost, which can add up to a serious amount of cash over the course of an evening - as any raider is fully aware of. Your character is spawned at a graveyard and you are forced to run back to your corpse, which in some cases can amount to several minutes' time lost. After ressing, you have to heal/mana back up and reapply buffs, which adds another significant time chunk. In short, it sucks. Yes, compared to old games like Everquest which gave you an experience penalty for dying, it's tame. But there's a reason why World of Warcraft's subscriber base is so much larger, isn't there? :)

In PvP, when your character dies, it has almost no impact whatsoever. You do not lose item durability. If you're in a battleground, you respawn at a graveyard within 30 seconds automatically, set to full health and mana, and given five seconds to apply whatever buffs you like at no mana cost. In short, the time between player death and player being back in the game is never more than roughly 30 seconds. This is not done as a penalty, but rather as a method for the other team to get a little bit of time after a kill to perform a task, namely grabbing a flag or taking a battleground node.

I haven't checked lately, but Cleoboltra has something like 30,000+ lifetime HK's. In the grand scheme of things, that's not a lot compared to anyone who has gone through the pre-TBC honor grind. Now, let's say for the sake of argument that I am the most amazingest PvP god ever, and for every 10 HKs I have, I've died once. If you play in battleground PuGs a lot, this would be a high and unlikely ratio. I wouldn't call it accurate at all in my case, from all the PuGs I've run in where the other side is smart enough to kill the healer first...

Even still, that would mean that I've died over three thousand times. In PvP, you kill a lot, and you die a lot. It's really not personal. Only the emotionally unstable get too tied up in who kills who and who is killed by who, unless they're dealing with the ultra-high-end arena PvP. As an example, when I'm PvPing, I don't notice players' names as much as I notice "Resto Druid, Hunter, SL/SL Warlock, Warrior, Shadowstep Rogue." It's akin to farming mobs in PvE - here comes Fire Elemental #4529, hopefully it'll have a Fire Mote this time. Who I'm fighting in PvP is irrelevant, and for 99% of the playerbase it's the same thing the other way. They don't go "woo hoo! I killed Cleoboltra, I rock!" They think "whew, annoying Discipline Priest finally down." 30 seconds later I'm back in the match and we're going at it all over again.

It's really more akin to a first-person shooter match. You kill someone, you get killed, everyone respawns, so what. This is exacerbated by the fact that a great majority of players who log in to a battleground are just looking to get honor or marks to buy another PvP item; they're not emotionally invested in who wins or loses, who kills or is killed, beyond allowing them to reach their target honor/marks faster. In fact, it's that soulless grind nature of battlegrounds that engenders the most complaints: nobody really cares, they just want honor. People will be apt to throw the game and let the other side win rather than play a long, drawn out close match, because ultimately they'll get more honor by losing quickly and queuing again than by playing an hour-long epic battle (which they may lose anyway).

I guess my conclusion is that you're not ruining someone else's day by killing them in PvP. It's happened to them a lot. A lot. And in turn, they've killed a lot. Matches are short, most everyone doesn't care who's who, and you find something you can enjoy with it, whether it's playing defense, charging into enemies, or just plain sheeping people like crazy. :) Meanwhile, you'll start learning a lot about other classes, and finding their strengths and weaknesses against you.

-Bolty

[Pantalaimon]

There are aspects from each facet of the game that you can take away to make you better at the other one. Knowledge of what other classes are capable of, situational awareness, response time - all of these translate well to both disciplines. I know that my play in arenas has improved my abilities in raiding, and vice-versa. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but I've heard the same from scores of other players as well.

This is why I encourage everyone to form arena teams and just play. Leave the ego at the door, and you might learn something along the way.

-Bolty

Eh. I've arenaed... once? Well, ten times for one week's worth of points, anyways. BGed just enough to get my Insignia for Archimonde, and that was painful enough. And I play "OP" classes - Mage, Warlock, Druid. I still hate PvP!

I don't know - maybe arena can teach you to watch out more, but really, should you not know what there is to raiding by the time you reach high end content? You touch on situational awareness; I'm WAY more aware in a raid than in a BG, simply because in a BG I'm busy running away from (*cough* Kiting!) 3 horde pretty much all the time, whereas in a raid I'm usually zoomed all the way out, have the luxury of standing still more often than not, and while automatically doing my DPS cycle (whoo, muscle memory) I'm looking around for stuff that'll kill me, people I'm too near, people I'm too far from, things I should be doing, etc. etc. Shade of Aran and Bloodboil taught me more about situational awareness than arenas and BGs ever did, or, I'm pretty sure, ever would even if I played them more.

So no, I don't think the two spheres have to interact. If I want to PvP, I go play an FPS. There's no problems with class balance when you can switch classes every time you die:P Which I do often enough! But do I begrudge WoW PvPers? Only when pvp buffs/nerfs impact PvE, and that's a fairly common view I think. How hard would it be to have zone-wide flags in Arena and BGs where certain stuff is changed? They could've implemented the life tap nerf that way. Meh. Water under the bridge, that.

[Tal]

I don't know - maybe arena can teach you to watch out more, but really, should you not know what there is to raiding by the time you reach high end content? You touch on situational awareness; I'm WAY more aware in a raid than in a BG, simply because in a BG I'm busy running away from (*cough* Kiting!) 3 horde pretty much all the time, whereas in a raid I'm usually zoomed all the way out, have the luxury of standing still more often than not, and while automatically doing my DPS cycle (whoo, muscle memory) I'm looking around for stuff that'll kill me, people I'm too near, people I'm too far from, things I should be doing, etc. etc. Shade of Aran and Bloodboil taught me more about situational awareness than arenas and BGs ever did, or, I'm pretty sure, ever would even if I played them more.

Believe it or not but you do learn in pvp to do much the same thing all while being more mobile. I play with my view zoomed out so I can keep an eye out for those nasty rogues that like to get the jump on me while I'm standing still to heal.;)

[Pantalaimon]

Believe it or not but you do learn in pvp to do much the same thing all while being more mobile. I play with my view zoomed out so I can keep an eye out for those nasty rogues that like to get the jump on me while I'm standing still to heal.;)

Uhh, kay? How is that different than what I'm doing at the moment in any raid? :whistling:

"while being more mobile" implies that raiders have some sort of compunction for standing still - far from it, I can't really think of many fights off hand where I get to stand still. Akama and Kaz'rogal come to mind and that's pretty much it? Perhaps Mother? I know I'm getting pretty defensive, but it's the most often played card in these types of discussions - that somehow PvP is a magically fluid, mobile beast, while PvE is standing still and blasting things.

No... I'm standing there, zoomed out, watching for a "rogue", which in my case is a targetted AoE, or a cue to go stand somewhere and do something. I can't really tell the difference in terms of "skill" at situational awareness.

On the flip side of the coin, I also can't think of any fight where you do NOTHING but run for the whole fight, either. So arena teaching me to run away at full tilt, keeping CoEx on everything and running out of LoS, doesn't really help my raiding either.

Edit: I r fail spelling.

[Tal]

Uhh, kay? How is that different than what I'm doing at the moment in any raid? :whistling:

"while being more mobile" implies that raiders have some sort of compunction for standing still - far from it, I can't really think of many fights off hand where I get to stand still. Akama and Kaz'rogal come to mind and that's pretty much it? Perhaps Mother? I know I'm getting pretty defensive, but it's the most often played card in these types of discussions - that somehow PvP is a magically fluid, mobile beast, while PvE is standing still and blasting things.

No... I'm standing there, zoomed out, watching for a "rogue", which in my case is a targetted AoE, or a cue to go stand somewhere and do something. I can't really tell the difference in terms of "skill" at situational awareness.

On the flip side of the coin, I also can't think of any fight where you do NOTHING but run for the whole fight, either. So arena teaching me to run away at full tilt, keeping CoEx on everything and running out of LoS, doesn't really help my raiding either.

Edit: I r fail spelling.

What I mean to say is that PvP can train you to use that muscle memory you use in pve while also teaching you the situational awareness you need to survive fights. And when I mean 'you' I mean the generic 'you' not you personally. It sounds like you've developed the skills you need for situational awareness in pve - whereas in my raiding group we still have folks who stand in fires. >.>

[Pantalaimon]

What I mean to say is that PvP can train you to use that muscle memory you use in pve while also teaching you the situational awareness you need to survive fights. And when I mean 'you' I mean the generic 'you' not you personally. It sounds like you've developed the skills you need for situational awareness in pve - whereas in my raiding group we still have folks who stand in fires. >.>

You know what... point taken. Sorry :)

I still believe, though, that the best way to learn how to survive in PvE is to... PvE. *gasp* :P I'm very wary of people telling raiders to go arena because it'll make them a better raider. Perhaps, but to use a rather weak metaphor, I'd rather they learn how to play football directly, instead of teaching them how to play rugby and then applying those skills to football. Yes, they're similar - but, as even Bolty admitted, they're still different skillsets.

There are raid encounters in the game that are more than sufficient to teach all the right lessons, again my favourite example is bloodboil. Talk about having to be situationally aware and mobile. I see no need to substitute PvP to learn how to raid - if you enjoy PvP, then I'm sure you can carry some lessons into raiding, though.

[Pesmerga]

Perhaps, but to use a rather weak metaphor, I'd rather they learn how to play football directly, instead of teaching them how to play rugby and then applying those skills to football. Yes, they're similar - but, as even Bolty admitted, they're still different skillsets.

True enough, but one can supplement the other. Especially when raid times are typically set in stone, while arena/PvP times can be more dynamic.

(Or, to use your analogy: Football is played in the Spring, and Rugby in the fall. At least at my college)