Yet another religious cult raided

[Occhidiangela]

You really think they're not in it for the sex with underaged girls? I find it beyond belief that this is not at least a major part of what is going on.

-Jester

Projection noted.

Occhi

[Bun-Bun]

You will note that "age of consent" and "age of legal majority" are not the same. In Texas. Please don't muddle the issue. If there were pregnant minors who were below the age of consent at conception, OK, there is an issue, more specifically a case by case issue. Tell me again why the non pregnant boys were taken by CPS? The non pregnant girls? Or were all 400+ pregnant, regardless of gender? :huh:

So noted. And removing the boys is pretty dodgy; I suspect they either wanted to interview them separately, which to my mind is a very marginal justification. As to the non-pregnant girls, if you think for a moment you might come up with a reason that they could be in some peril in a community that views impregnating underage girls as a normal practice.

I find it rather droll that forty years ago, "communes" were all the rage in this country, and alternative social and familial forms quite the fad. This commune, and this alternative familial and cummunity structure, isn't allowed to develop as a counter culture.

We've become rather more conservative as a culture. There's an unspoken assumption in your comment, though, that the intent is to destroy the FLDS culture. Certainly there are many Texans who find the FLDS abhorrent. Fortunately for us, and the FLDS, we've got laws and lawyers. Hundreds of lawyers are descending even as we speak.

Arguably, the law was changed in direct response to their presence. At that point we can debate what the age of marriageability should be. Was the law changed to bring Texas in line with the majority of other states; was this the closing of a loophole or a strike on diversity? I would think of it as closing an embarassing oversight. Nevertheless, the FLDS always had the option of obeying the law.

The FLDS model is not my cup of tea. But you might ask yourself why the women stayed. The adult women.

Like any high-control group, they were indoctrinated by isolation and fear. I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to leave a group like that.

Let's consider a bit of a devil's advocate question here: how diverse is diverse, how multi is multi cultural, and how tolerant is tolerant? Remember that our country makes filty rich a nation whose culture is pretty similar to this FLDS patriarchy, our officials of both parties spouts platitudes about our friends and allies who treat women and children little differently, and in some cases worse.

Inconsistency seems a core issue here.

Yep, I'm not a big fan of some of our foreign policy either. As to how tolerant is tolerant, I'd vote that we make our laws as liberal and unrestrictive as possible, controlling only those activities that lead to harming others.

[kandrathe]

We've become rather more conservative as a culture.

I think it is more insidious than that. Some items to note; Who has the most "brain time" with your children, and is molding their intellectual and moral foundations? Movements are underway in many states (started in California) that will do away with home schooling. Meaning that unless you've become certified as an educator yourself, you are unqualified to teach even your own children. Raising the age of adulthood puts kids into the hands of the state longer. At the same time, even dangerous teachers within the public school system are protected from dismissal by their powerful unions. Conservatism has lost where I live, it is the progressives, liberals and leftists who are in control.

[Occhidiangela]

So noted. And removing the boys is pretty dodgy; I suspect they either wanted to interview them separately, which to my mind is a very marginal justification.

Agreed.

As to the non-pregnant girls, if you think for a moment you might come up with a reason that they could be in some peril in a community that views impregnating underage girls as a normal practice.

Depends on if they are ripe or not, but given the norms of FLDS as I understand them, not an irrational concern.

We've become rather more conservative as a culture. There's an unspoken assumption in your comment, though, that the intent is to destroy the FLDS culture. Certainly there are many Texans who find the FLDS abhorrent. Fortunately for us, and the FLDS, we've got laws and lawyers. Hundreds of lawyers are descending even as we speak.

Well yes, it seems rather obvious that the church, as in the group of people, was being targeted. And yes, lawyers aplenty will get to play. Lucky them. Keeps them off the streets, I suppose.:P

Arguably, the law was changed in direct response to their presence. At that point we can debate what the age of marriageability should be. Was the law changed to bring Texas in line with the majority of other states; was this the closing of a loophole or a strike on diversity? I would think of it as closing an embarassing oversight. Nevertheless, the FLDS always had the option of obeying the law.

Your last sentence hits the heart of the matter.

Like any high-control group, they were indoctrinated by isolation and fear. I'm not sure you understand how difficult it is to leave a group like that.

I do indeed. Remember the deprogrammers and cults in the 70's and 80's? Try this on for size: I've dealt with some pretty extreme branches of Pentacostals in the Navy, in my past, and am very familiar with the narrow world view excercised within those circles.

Yep, I'm not a big fan of some of our foreign policy either. As to how tolerant is tolerant, I'd vote that we make our laws as liberal and unrestrictive as possible, controlling only those activities that lead to harming others.

Tend to agree.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

The FLDS model is not my cup of tea.

Mine either. But then again, I don't believe in some of the American models either. The first is to marry, and divorce many women in succession leaving a trail of broken and bitter homes behind you. At least that way the children know which mother you loved best at that time. Or the other is to be a dog and not marry at all going around and humping whomever you can and leave behind you a trail of women on AFDC who have children from different fathers.

[kandrathe]

So that's my question for you: regardless of any nefarious motives, whatever was in hearts and minds, what actions were taken by the authorities that were not merited by the facts plainly in evidence?

It is impossible to say without more evidence. So far, they have shown no evidence of "abuse" other than pregnant teen girls. I'd say that seems to be a cultural practice, and has been since the founding of LDS. Even Brigham Young claimed that an unmarried 21 year old is a danger to society. They marry them off early, and have done so for over one hundred years. Now we call it "abuse". Also, I want to be clear that I don't support this practice, or what the FLDS does. I think Polygamy is wrong, and since it has been the dirty little secret in Utah, and Arizona for so long it masks other more sinister crimes like child abuse, and the deprivation and other mistreatment of wives and children. It also seems that often they enroll their "spiritual wives" in welfare programs and feed off the State. So, when I ask "should this sect be destroyed?", it is me actually being conflicted because a part of me really thinks they should be destroyed. I believe in the right of these women to be free and make their own decisions, but I also support the rights of groups like Quakers, Amish, and Mormons to have religious views that are out of the mainstream. This is a clash of cultures, and I'm concerned about the rights of the minority here.

Another bad analogy, unnecessarily loading the issue with racial overtones.

Um, why? It is a good analogy actually, we could substitute Amish, or Hmong, or Native American, but each culture has some right to their own beliefs. It is when their beliefs and ours conflict that these types of intolerant raids, and trampling of rights, and government massacres occur. Recall, that the US government seized thousands of Native American children and raised them in orphanages for their own good. It is a great analogy.

Let's say a policeman enters a house from which has issued a call for help. The caller can't be found, but the policeman can't help noticing a man beating a child. The man claims that it is his religious right to do so. The policeman sensibly arrests the man and puts the child in the care of the State until things get resolved.

Not quite accurate. The policeman enters the house and sees one of the children with evidence of beating, and he assumes the child was illegally beaten by the father. She is actually a 2nd generation American who's parents came from the African Hamar tribe, and the beating she received was a part of their traditional tribal rituals.

Now what if there are twenty families living at this house, all of which profess the same religion? There is evidence that there are several beaten children across different family groups. Some people who have left the house earlier claim this happens all the time. Should the authorities remove all the children? Is this too dangerous an environment? I'd say yes. In fact, I'd say they have no choice in the matter at all.

Not one house. Let's say these Hamar families all moved into the same neighborhood in Chicago, and still retain some of their cultural heritage. Maybe some still practice ritual whippings, and maybe some do not -- all of the girls do not appear to be scarred.

[Jester]

Projection noted.

Occhi

My, but that was needless.

-Jester

[eppie]

I do indeed. Remember the deprogrammers and cults in the 70's and 80's? Try this on for size: I've dealt with some pretty extreme branches of Pentacostals in the Navy, in my past, and am very familiar with the narrow world view excercised within those circles.
Occhi

This also goes for the mainstream religions, and of course the strictest people in these religions.

Leaving the religion with which you grew up and that is practiced by many of you family members and friends because you found out that it is 'untrue' can be a very emotionally difficult thing to do even for very intelligent people. Doctrine by religions is something not recognized by the world community and something that deserves attention from human rights group.
Freedom of religion means that you are allowed to practice whatever religion you feel attracted to, it doesn't mean that you can make your kids into zombies (this doesnot only go for sects but also for you mainstream christian, muslim and jewish religion).

[Vandiablo]

Not quite accurate. The policeman enters the house and sees one of the children with evidence of beating, and he assumes the child was illegally beaten by the father. She is actually a 2nd generation American who's parents came from the African Hamar tribe, and the beating she received was a part of their traditional tribal rituals.

...and it is still illegal and should have the same consequence. Another practice you might consider quaint is vaginal mutilation.

Scarring rituals (such as marriage) are fine for adults who can consent, but children should not be forced into such things.

-V

[kandrathe]

...and it is still illegal and should have the same consequence.

I saw this show on the Hamar, and the more they are scarred the more prestigious they become. The ritual is to show how much they love their brother. Pretty strange. Some people might find tattooing an abusive practice, but people still do it. I bet if we looked around we'd find something bizzare that we do.

[Occhidiangela]

My, but that was needless.

-Jester

More accurately, that was a needle.

Out of curiosity, has long distance mind reading been added to your list of skills?

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

This also goes for the mainstream religions, and of course the strictest people in these religions.

I don't think you understand what I was talking about. Pentacostals are a subset of Christian, and very much "strict" in their interpretation of the tenets of the Christian faith, as they see them. As you might have learned once, Christianity is not a monolithic movement, but a related collection of frequently clashing sects and denominations who differ greatly on the details of doctrine and interpretation of the common roots of said religious practice.

Leaving the religion with which you grew up and that is practiced by many of you family members and friends because you found out that it is 'untrue' can be a very emotionally difficult thing to do even for very intelligent people.

Indeed.

Doctrine by religions is something not recognized by the world community and something that deserves attention from human rights group.

I think you mean "indoctrination" and you might be surprised that you were subject to indoctrination while you were in school. Doctrine is a set of rules/beliefs/norms that provide a framework for decision making and common understanding.

Freedom of religion means that you are allowed to practice whatever religion you feel attracted to, it doesn't mean that you can make your kids into zombies (this doesnot only go for sects but also for you mainstream christian, muslim and jewish religion).

I find curious your assertion that raising your kids in your cultural context is considered "making them into zombies." Your bias is fairly leaping from the page. Your implication is that religion and culture are separate, whereas in the vast majority of the world, and for a lot of human history, they have been inextricably entwined. That you choose to separate them is fine, for you. Why you feel that your method must be "the correct way" demonstrates some cultural myopia on your part.

Occhi

[eppie]

I don't think you understand what I was talking about. Pentacostals are a subset of Christian, and very much "strict" in their interpretation of the tenets of the Christian faith, as they see them. As you might have learned once, Christianity is not a monolithic movement, but a related collection of frequently clashing sects and denominations who differ greatly on the details of doctrine and interpretation of the common roots of said religious practice.

That is what I meant...I don't mean all christians, but I meant the stricter subdivisions.

I think you mean "indoctrination"

I think you'r right, thanks.:)

and you might be surprised that you were subject to indoctrination while you were in school. Doctrine is a set of rules/beliefs/norms that provide a framework for decision making and common understanding.

Let's not go into the theoretical realms here. Going to a liberal school and being teached that there are different opinions, ways of live and religions is a different indoctrination than going to say an islamic school in Iran and being teached that all americans are evil. Please try to work with me here and understand what I'm saying. <_<

I find curious your assertion that raising your kids in your cultural context is considered "making them into zombies." Your bias is fairly leaping from the page. Your implication is that religion and culture are separate, whereas in the vast majority of the world, and for a lot of human history, they have been inextricably entwined. That you choose to separate them is fine, for you. Why you feel that your method must be "the correct way" demonstrates some cultural myopia on your part.

Occhi

Again, try to not look at my religious beliefs in this subject but to the general point.
Can you imagine that the shock for an atheist that wants to convert to Islam will be dwarfed by the shock ity gives a religious person to step form his faith.
I was not teached that bad things would happen if I chose the become religious. I mean my father always told us to go to church for some education. Further I am going regularly to church when I am in Italy.
The religious people that I am talking about, the stricter ones, teach their children about hell and about sinning and about what happens to you if you leave the religion. OK, this is not strange; because if you really believe that there is a hell and that people that don't have your faith go there after they die I would also be very very angry/concerned/confused etc. if my child chose to step out of that religion.

You see this opinion has nothing to do with me being an atheist. True it is not only religion that does this. Look at the cold war...americans and russians were teached to hate eachother.....even though they never met somebody from the other country.


But again, theoretically you are right that I was indoctrinated in believing that everybody can choose his own relgion and to treat everybody with respect. (it was just after I got older that I got to be this disrespectful:) )

[Jester]

Spade identification is not a skill that requires mindreading.

-Jester

[Bun-Bun]

I do indeed. Remember the deprogrammers and cults in the 70's and 80's? Try this on for size: I've dealt with some pretty extreme branches of Pentacostals in the Navy, in my past, and am very familiar with the narrow world view excercised within those circles.

I'm not totally edumacated on the Pentacostals, but my surface knowledge indicates they are a pretty high-control bunch. I will say that rigor in religion is often a characteristic of high-control groups but it is not a defining one. There are plenty that are not religiously based.

I guess what I'm trying to get at was the unstated assumption in your prior post that the return of the adult women to the compound was some illustration that the situation there was not as bad as all that. My position is that the emotional control the FLDS has over these women is so strong that this is not a valid metric.

It'll be interesting to see what both sides come up with in today's hearing.

[kandrathe]

Let's not go into the theoretical realms here. Going to a liberal school and being teached that there are different opinions, ways of live and religions is a different indoctrination than going to say an islamic school in Iran and being teached that all americans are evil. Please try to work with me here and understand what I'm saying.

Is that how schools are in Europe? They are not that way here. Teachers tend to forward one viewpoint as "Truth" and castigate any dissent to their viewpoints. This is why movies like Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed or The Great Global Warming Swindle get traction here in the USA. The majority of teachers in public schools at all age levels, as well as most college faculty subscribe to a common agenda and world view. So, much so, that it appears as indoctrination and propaganda even whilst you endure it. If you oppose their worldview and tenets you are kicked out of the profession. I know I was taught by my public school teachers to doubt my parents, but never my teachers. My older sister even had one of her 9th grade (she was 16 BTW) teachers arrange for her to get birth control pills without my parents knowledge, and that was 1972. It's gotten much, much worse since then. One of the teachers in the local high school activly recruits students into Wicca, and leads school board meetings with Wicca 'prayers'. I remember vividly that my grades improved dramatically, after I realized in my freshman year that you cannot tell them how you think, but rather you tell them how you think they want you to think. I sold out, and I got A's after that. The highlight was in my composition 1001 course, which I dropped at midterm because I getting "F"'s consistently. I retook the course the next semester, adopting my liberal facade and I got an A. The teacher frequently read my papers to the class as examples. The choice was to conform and win, or be true to your beliefs and fail.

I hope Europe is more sane.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm not totally edumacated on the Pentacostals, but my surface knowledge indicates they are a pretty high-control bunch. I will say that rigor in religion is often a characteristic of high-control groups but it is not a defining one. There are plenty that are not religiously based.

I guess what I'm trying to get at was the unstated assumption in your prior post that the return of the adult women to the compound was some illustration that the situation there was not as bad as all that. My position is that the emotional control the FLDS has over these women is so strong that this is not a valid metric.

It'll be interesting to see what both sides come up with in today's hearing.

Not every woman is opposed to a patriarchical social model. Why would you assume that all women are? Some are very comfortable with their role in such a set up. I am unwilling to buy into the imbedded assumption in your remark. I am also leary of applying this meme of "mind control" as an explanation for adherence, or buy in, to such roles.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I hope Europe is more sane.

Your hope that group think ends at the American Atlantic coast is in vain.

Occhi

[Jester]

Is that how schools are in Europe? They are not that way here. Teachers tend to forward one viewpoint as "Truth" and castigate any dissent to their viewpoints. This is why movies like Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed or The Great Global Warming Swindle get traction here in the USA.

Really? I'd always thought it was the frightening lack of effective science education that led to the popularity of propagandistic junk like those two films, rather than its overzealous application.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Really? I'd always thought it was the frightening lack of effective science education that led to the popularity of propagandistic junk like those two films, rather than its overzealous application.

You can lead the sheep to the stock tank, but you can't force them to drink it. Is your measure of the ineffectiveness of science education based on the number of people who don't subscribe to the dogma?