Yet another religious cult raided

[kandrathe]

I don't support the practices and doctrine of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeffs, Eldorado or otherwise), but it's outrageous to me that these families are all attacked and Texas is seeking to make all 416 children wards of the State.

"Rangers chose not to place Barlow under arrest, which highlights what media have been noting all week -- that authorities might be investigating the wrong man. Barlow, who is from Colorado City, Ariz., has denied the allegations of abuse, and has said he does not know the 16-year-old girl whose March 29 call to a domestic violence hotline sparked the raid on the Eldorado compound built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs."

[Quark]

I don't support the practices and doctrine of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeffs, Eldorado or otherwise), but it's outrageous to me that these families are all attacked and Texas is seeking to make all 416 children wards of the State.

If they want the children back let them prove their innocence (or, rather, disprove their guilt). Seriously, this is child abuse we're talking about.

[Jester]

I don't support the practices and doctrine of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeffs, Eldorado or otherwise), but it's outrageous to me that these families are all attacked and Texas is seeking to make all 416 children wards of the State.

People can practice what they like for their Religion, and I have no objection to polygamy per se. This, however, is an abusive cult that uses children for the purposes of sexually satisfying church bigwigs, subjecting young girls to brainwashing and abuse to perpetuate what would otherwise be totally unsustainable. That's criminal. Their liberty does not extend so far that they can make prisoners of their children.

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

If they want the children back let them prove their innocence (or, rather, disprove their guilt). Seriously, this is child abuse we're talking about.

You appear to misunderstand innocent until proven guilty. Got any kids?

The authorities are fortunate that these Mormons were not of the same character as those in the mid nineteenth century, bellicosity wise, or like Koresh and his fringe group.

Occhi

[Quark]

You appear to misunderstand innocent until proven guilty. Got any kids?

There is a difference between presuming someone is guilty and trying to prevent additional harm in case they are guilty. That is, unless you think temporary restraining orders and bail shouldn't exist.

You don't hand a suspected murderer a gun.

[kandrathe]

People can practice what they like for their Religion, and I have no objection to polygamy per se. This, however, is an abusive cult that uses children for the purposes of sexually satisfying church bigwigs, subjecting young girls to brainwashing and abuse to perpetuate what would otherwise be totally unsustainable. That's criminal. Their liberty does not extend so far that they can make prisoners of their children.

-Jester

I agree. And, the individuals who are suspected, charged, and proven to perpetuate these crimes should be held accountable. What does brainwashing your children mean? Teaching them what you believe (maybe only if you live in a cloistered community)? If that is the standard, I think the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, and many others are all in some trouble.


I'm reading some pretty suspicious stuff about the seizing of the FLDS trust funds in 2005 by the government, and now I'm wondering if some of this isn't connected.

[kandrathe]

If they want the children back let them prove their innocence (or, rather, disprove their guilt). Seriously, this is child abuse we're talking about.

Alleged. There may be families living there that don't adhere to the marrying at 15 thing.

But, in doing more research...

"The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement. Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.

The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet. The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness. Wives may be taken from one man and reassigned to men that are more worthy."

So, yes weird by our standards. It seems to me that things would be fine with the Eldorado FLDS if they would abide by Texas age of consent laws.

[Obi2Kenobi]

My problem with this is how it's being reported in the media. It's not "alleged child molestation case", it's "polygamous cult". I don't see what the big deal is if they want to have multiple partners; that's not a crime. The issue is whether there was any actual abuse going on. Everything else (at least as far as their religion, etc.) goes is irrelevant.

[Quark]

I don't see what the big deal is if they want to have multiple partners; that's not a crime.

Um, no matter what anyone's personal thoughts on it are, polygamy (it's not just multiple partners) is in fact illegal.

The issue is whether there was any actual abuse going on. Everything else (at least as far as their religion, etc.) goes is irrelevant.

Aye, that's the big issue. The other stuff isn't irrelevant though, as it is against the law.

[Occhidiangela]

My problem with this is how it's being reported in the media. It's not "alleged child molestation case", it's "polygamous cult". I don't see what the big deal is if they want to have multiple partners; that's not a crime. The issue is whether there was any actual abuse going on. Everything else (at least as far as their religion, etc.) goes is irrelevant.

The news here reported that the initial call was a sixteen year old who reported a rape by her husband. (She's of legal age, sure, but if she reported a rape, how could the cops not respond? They had to act in some way, at the very least on her complaint. Blowing off a rape charge is not consistent with law and order, eh?)

For CPS to tar with that brush the entire group of people, and kids, and let CPS loose is hardly something that restores my faith in government. That "one bad all bad" line smells to high heaven.

Quark, I agree with you on the legality issue, the law is what it is, but I wonder if you think it is correct to discriminate against polygamists? Is it also right to discriminate against homosexual marriage?

Are you consistent in that point of view?

Occhi

[Quark]

Quark, I agree with you on the legality issue, the law is what it is, but I wonder if you think it is correct to discriminate against polygamists? Is it also right to discriminate against homosexual marriage?

Are you consistent in that point of view?

Occhi

I don't agree with the law, but don't see much avenue for changing it at this point. I guess you could compare it with drugs in a way. It's not drugs that are the problem, it's drug abuse. Similarly, polygamy isn't a problem in itself, but it sure does seem like many cases of it lead to abuse.

[eppie]

Quark, I agree with you on the legality issue, the law is what it is, but I wonder if you think it is correct to discriminate against polygamists? Is it also right to discriminate against homosexual marriage?

Are you consistent in that point of view?

Occhi

Gay marriage, whether you like it or not, is based on equality just like a marriage between 2 adult heterosexuals.
Polygamists marriages are absolutely not based on equality, they are just ' a nice' bonus for those who invent a new religion or an extra stimulus for men to join that religion.
Same goes for forced marriages that are still common in countries like the middle east and India.

[eppie]

I don't agree with the law, but don't see much avenue for changing it at this point. I guess you could compare it with drugs in a way. It's not drugs that are the problem, it's drug abuse.

No it is drugs being illegal that is the problem. Drugs and drugs abuse are in principle the same thing (you can not be crack user just on birthdays and other festivities....it is a full time job)

[Quark]

No it is drugs being illegal that is the problem. Drugs and drugs abuse are in principle the same thing (you can not be crack user just on birthdays and other festivities....it is a full time job)

I've known plenty of people who have used drugs casually (once a week, if not less). Are you saying I made all those people up in my head?

[Quark]

Gay marriage, whether you like it or not, is based on equality just like a marriage between 2 adult heterosexuals.
Polygamists marriages are absolutely not based on equality, they are just ' a nice' bonus for those who invent a new religion or an extra stimulus for men to join that religion.
Same goes for forced marriages that are still common in countries like the middle east and India.

I think you're having trouble with separating the abstract of polygamy versus the only type of polygamy (polygyny, to be specific, you never really hear about polyandry) you'll ever see on the news - cases of its abuse. These are forced marriages, mostly to wives under the age of 18.

If three consenting adults, of any combination of sex and orientation, want to enter a polygamist relationship I don't really have a problem with it, though most of society currently does.

That's not what we're dealing with, here.

[kandrathe]

Gay marriage, whether you like it or not, is based on equality just like a marriage between 2 adult heterosexuals.
Polygamists marriages are absolutely not based on equality, they are just ' a nice' bonus for those who invent a new religion or an extra stimulus for men to join that religion.
Same goes for forced marriages that are still common in countries like the middle east and India.

eppie, this was hardly conceived of as a bonus for men. It goes all the way back to the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith and a vision he claimed to have received from God which indicated that through Polygamy the church would flourish. Joe Smith Jr's new religion was a little too weird for Vermont in 1826, so he and his wife moved west to Palmyra, Pennsylvania to avoid legal entanglements. His church grew in that area until 1830, when the local community pressures began to boil again. Joe received a vision again and they moved further west to Missouri and Ohio.

According to Wikipedia, "However, due to the controversy which followed him, he was not to escape persecution for long. In March of 1832, a violent mob came to Smith's house and attacked him. According to recorded accounts of the event, the mob broke down the front door, took Smith's oldest surviving adopted child from his arms, and dragged Smith from the room. The mob beat, tarred and feathered, and attempted to poison Joseph."

Then in 1838, "2,500 troops from the Missouri state militia converged on the Mormon headquarters at Far West. They raided Far West, ransacked their homes, raped their women and killed several. Smith and several other Church leaders were brought into the Missouri Militia by Colonel George M. Hinkle under false pretenses. Hinkle then handed the prisoners over to General Lucas. They were held at Liberty Jail, and spent several months in captivity. They were later transferred to a jail in Columbia, Missouri."

So, you see that the trouble for LDS and now FLDS has its roots in the beginnings of the religion. They have always practiced what they are practicing now. I don't believe they are in it for the sex or the arranged marriages with under aged girls, but are practicing their beliefs and are in it for the bearing of many (FLDS) children. This issue of Polygamy, and arranged marriages by the leader "prophet" caused a schism in the LDS, which subsequently caused the pro-polygamists to splinter off even before Utah became a State. They migrated to Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona area and flourished, and finally re-founded their church as FLDS in 1930.

They have not changed. It is society that has encroached upon their beliefs and territory.

[Bun-Bun]

I agree. And, the individuals who are suspected, charged, and proven to perpetuate these crimes should be held accountable. What does brainwashing your children mean? Teaching them what you believe (maybe only if you live in a cloistered community)? If that is the standard, I think the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, and many others are all in some trouble.
I'm reading some pretty suspicious stuff about the seizing of the FLDS trust funds in 2005 by the government, and now I'm wondering if some of this isn't connected.

Nice strawman. This is about removing children from an environment where there is abundant evidence that crimes against children were committed on a sanctioned ongoing basis.

Here's one set of well-accepted criteria for "brainwashing". I think you'll find it fits well with the FLDS. Nothing there is specifically illegal, but it's a good blueprint for potentially desctructive thought reform.

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/...oughtreform.htm

or, if you prefer a more concise model

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/167-mind...bite-model

[Bun-Bun]

The news here reported that the initial call was a sixteen year old who reported a rape by her husband. (She's of legal age, sure, but if she reported a rape, how could the cops not respond? They had to act in some way, at the very least on her complaint. Blowing off a rape charge is not consistent with law and order, eh?)

She was not of legal age when impregnated, IIRC.

For CPS to tar with that brush the entire group of people, and kids, and let CPS loose is hardly something that restores my faith in government. That "one bad all bad" line smells to high heaven.

And all the other pregnant minors in that group would tell you what?

Quark, I agree with you on the legality issue, the law is what it is, but I wonder if you think it is correct to discriminate against polygamists? Is it also right to discriminate against homosexual marriage?

Irrelevant sidetrack.

[Delc]

No it is drugs being illegal that is the problem. Drugs and drugs abuse are in principle the same thing (you can not be crack user just on birthdays and other festivities....it is a full time job)

Alcohol, tobacco, crack, heroin, marijuana, Tylenol, etc can all be used responsibly, and they can all be abused. Casual drug use is fairly common.

As for the compound of people. There was probably some abuse going on, but taking all of the children, and then letting the courts sort it out doesn't seem like the best solution. Was there reason to believe they were all being abused?

[Jester]

So, you see that the trouble for LDS and now FLDS has its roots in the beginnings of the religion. They have always practiced what they are practicing now. I don't believe they are in it for the sex or the arranged marriages with under aged girls, but are practicing their beliefs and are in it for the bearing of many (FLDS) children.

You really think they're not in it for the sex with underaged girls? I find it beyond belief that this is not at least a major part of what is going on.

-Jester