Diablo III is for real

[Kevin]

People here didn't bitch this much about the evolution of WC2 to WC3 for crying out loud! Why this? Why now?! Because you CAN? Come on.

There are few reasons for this. One this site was never nearly as big for WC/SC as it was for Diablo / Diablo 2. And I think some of the lounge not being active was around WC3 time. But there was bitching about War3, there still is bitching about War3. The hero concept really turned some people off compared to War 2 and there were some complaints about the graphics as well. But for WC/SC it doesn't matter as much. The graphics and music didn't set as much of a tone because it was a different type of game. They weren't trying to great as much tone. So making the environment better looking (though again there were some gripes about the cartoonification) and allowing some other fun things to be done is not as big of deal.

I'm quite excited about the environmental updates in SC2 because it's adding to the game without really pulling it away from it's roots. The hero classes in War3 many say pulled the game from it's roots and there was a HUGE uproar (maybe not on these boards but on the bigger warcraft boards) when Blizzard initally announced the game and it was planned as you had a hero and depending on the level / number of heroes you had it would determine how many units you could control. People were pissed because that was a complete and total gameplay change. So Blizzard backed off on it and just made heroes be super units with the more traditional supplies for the other units. But there were unhappy people.

The difference with Diablo and why people are getting nit picky about art (other than the fact that picking nits is a long standing tradition at the lounge) is because one of the things people loved about D1 was the atmosphere it had because that was important to the game. These people complained about that loss when D2 came out and they are worried about it for D3 as well. The gameplay changes between 1 and 2 were significant as well and turned people off and they griped about that too. I think that is part of the reason that Blizzard is trying to make SC2 have gameplay very similar to SC but with a few updates here and there and a new graphical look. They learned from the gripes with War 3 and D2. However since D2 sold way more than D1, I've got a feeling D3 will be closer to D2. Does that mean it's a departure from the series? No, not really. It means that Blizzard decided they'll make more money with a game that resembles D2 more closely than it resembles D1.

I've expressed my opinions on it already. I think they are doing some blending, my hope is the sound has a quality and feel closer to D1, especially in the more dungeon crawly type levels. But I'm OK with the graphics. Glossy can still be sinister if things are done right. A really messed up corpse in an otherwise clean and polished church can work really well if the point is that the church was recently desecrated. Churches are expected to be clean and polished. But a mangled body or some zombies coming up from the cellars aren't.

I seem to recall some environments in System Shock that seemed to be pretty clean and alive but were spooky as heck because of the sounds and the unexpected psycho monkeys. But other areas were just a mess. I haven't played Bioshock but from some of what I've seen, they seem to do some of that too. There are some polished clean graphic buts then there is something that looks really out of place and it gets you to be a little creeped out.

Dunno. I'm looking forward to it. But I fully understand the concerns and worries some have and I even hope that they do some things a bit different from what I saw. Nothing wrong with a polished glossy environment if it is supposed to be, but if the minions of Hell have been there for awhile, make it look like it and feel like it please. Give me some "Ah, fresh meat!" but without the loading lag so that I have a chance against it. :) Make some deep dungeon crawls. Heck, put all of D1 in there as an act, make me go through all those levels again for nostalgia and to kill some big baddy who popped up there again. But since it's been 20 years, well some of that stuff could have been fixed up again. :) But I have no problem with that being a weak spot and some act end (using the D2 style of story progression which I'm hoping becomes more seemless in D3) type boss is down there after 16 levels. :)

I made a found a few other NWN Diablo mods that recreated some of that stuff with the NWN engine and it was fun. It's a simple setting but it works well. :)

[nobbie]

Looking at the current Sanctuary map on Diablo3.com, it seems we already have a first expansion to Diablo III that takes place in the Dreadlands / Xiansai (the gray portions on the map):)

[Iolair]

But not in town.

That is indeed true for Classic Diablo, but speed in town was increased quite a lot in the Hellfire expansion. Just a nit, that's all.

[Chesspiece_face]

Looking at the current Sanctuary map on Diablo3.com, it seems we already have a first expansion to Diablo III that takes place in the Dreadlands / Xiansai (the gray portions on the map):)

Note the lack of Arreat Summit and it's replacement: Arreat Crater. As well as the shattered land mass between the crater and Bastions Keep.

[FoxBat]

Looking at the current Sanctuary map on Diablo3.com, it seems we already have a first expansion to Diablo III that takes place in the Dreadlands / Xiansai (the gray portions on the map):)

No, I'd say those areas are grey to represent the snowy environs. There are alot of places on that map in bright color which won't show in D3: for example, Skovos, which they specifically mentioned during the lore panel.

Although, an expansion set in in the Chinese-sounding Xiansai would be fine with me. :P

[Chesspiece_face]

I've expressed my opinions on it already. I think they are doing some blending, my hope is the sound has a quality and feel closer to D1, especially in the more dungeon crawly type levels. But I'm OK with the graphics. Glossy can still be sinister if things are done right. A really messed up corpse in an otherwise clean and polished church can work really well if the point is that the church was recently desecrated. Churches are expected to be clean and polished. But a mangled body or some zombies coming up from the cellars aren't.

You have reason to be hopeful. Listen.

[nobbie]

No, I'd say those areas are grey to represent the snowy environs. There are alot of places on that map in bright color which won't show in D3: for example, Skovos, which they specifically mentioned during the lore panel.

Although, an expansion set in in the Chinese-sounding Xiansai would be fine with me. :P

Might well be, I didn't see all panels during the WWI. But whatever, if they build the whole world of Sanctuary in 3D (like Azeroth in WoW), I expect some fantastic regions and atmosphere coming in Lut Gholein (incl. the sewers with Radament) and the vast jungle with the Temple of Kurast:)

[Roland]

I'll say this:

There is NOTHING clean and polished, cute and cartoony, about that Siege Beast taking the Barbarian corpse, tearing its head off with his monstrous jaws, and seeing him fling the corpse away, with the upper entrails still clinging and hanging from its teeth.

That one scene gave me chills, and if there's even a modicum more of that in the game, I will have no problem with the environment.

Besides, it's pre-alpha. They have a LONG way to go before it's all said and done, and frankly many of the environments, particularly those that FoxBat so deeply picked apart into oblivion, looked VERY unfinished to me. I'd be highly surprised if those screenshots truly reflect the entire environment when the game is finally released.

Besides, stills do NOT do this game justice. Listen to what people say: download the full video, and watch it. Everything is just so fluid, so dynamic, so outright beautiful... to ME, getting hung up on a bunch of stills and nitpicking them into oblivion is like inspecting a Monet with a magnifying glass and picking that apart. I'm not trying to come off condescending or anything. I just think people are being way too critical, and way too early. But hey, if people don't like it, they don't like it. Not up to me to change someone's mind. Just trying to point out what I feel is early and unfair prejudice. To each their own, and all that.

[Chesspiece_face]

Besides, it's pre-alpha. They have a LONG way to go before it's all said and done, and frankly many of the environments, particularly those that FoxBat so deeply picked apart into oblivion, looked VERY unfinished to me. I'd be highly surprised if those screenshots truly reflect the entire environment when the game is finally released.

Which is to say nothing of the Photoshop factor.

[DeeBye]

I just think people are being way too critical, and way too early.

Agreed X 100.

I personally think the gameplay video looked incredibly fun and awesome. People might argue that Diablo should be timidly creeping around in a gothic dungeon strategically killing enemies one by one. I'll argue that the real fun of Diablo was wading into a huge group of enemies and utterly destroying them. In World of Warcraft, it's a large party of heroes going up against an insanely powerful raid boss. In Diablo, the hero is the raid boss.

[Nystul]

But not in town.

Apparently the graphics and lighting in town are much more demanding than the ones in the dungeons.;)

[Taem]

I like the addition of the life globes, however all I have to say is there better be HARDCORE!

[TheKingofKewl]

Hardcore in this looks like it would be even more exciting. If you're still going to be playing a bit of D2 before this I'm on as Ivorytower.

If they do Ladder in Diablo 3 a way of keeping people in the social loop could be allowing a new character to be non-ladder but still play with ladder characters. This would allow them to play together, but not be eligible for ladder climbing. The trading issue would be a problem though.

I like the addition of the life globes, however all I have to say is there better be HARDCORE!

[Quark]

Besides, stills do NOT do this game justice. Listen to what people say: download the full video, and watch it.

Yes, make sure you download it instead of that web trailer crap. Seriously, the +800MB gameplay video looks very good on my TV.

[CelticHound]

The announcement brought this Hound out of the kennel as well. (Hi Occhi!)

Won't have a chance to see all the multimedia stuff until tonight. Looks promising, though.

-- CH

[NiteFox]

I'll say this:

<Edited for brevity>

Also, in defence of the graphical style (Which oddly enough reminded me of the painting area in Oblivion, which was by far one of the most imaginative and better parts of that copy-and-paste fest) I stumbled across this picture on another forum.

Now, to be honest, having been shown that, I prefer the direction they're taking as opposed to the whole realisim is brown approach that every other developer is taking these days.

[Nystul]

I was referring to slow walk speed being required due to the technology available in 1996, rather than a design choice of the game.

You're really serious about all this? Either you've never played much post-level 30 Diablo or your memory of the game is very foggy. High level warriors who follow the tactical advice of Bolty's guide are likely to cast teleport over 200 times on a level full of ranged attackers, not as a reset button but as a way to get close to the enemy faster. High level mages aren't likely to ever walk at all, except in town or to avoid annoying their playing partners with all the wooshing sounds. Bow rogues probably benefit from teleport more than anyone, since it gives them an instant distance advantage over all enemies and costs a fraction of even a single stonecurse.

I just did about 200 blind teleports through normal hell with a level 27, low AC mage without mana shield and only a few levels of teleport, and never died or experienced any of this "loading" you speak of. Unlike D2, Diablo has no dynamic level loading. The level you are on is in memory, and the others are not. You cast teleport, the screen redraws sometime in the next .05 seconds or so, end of story. There is a slight glitch with the cursor location sometimes causing you to teleport to the wrong spot in rare circumstances but it's hardly a show stopper. The bottom line is, they could have made Diablo character move at whatever speed seemed appropriate, they chose the one they chose, and they happened to make most of the enemies move at roughly the same speed which turned out to be a good choice. That, and the supposedly faster pace of D2 or any other RPG is almost entirely illusory, because Diablo can be one heck of a frantic game if you choose to play it that way.

[Hammerskjold]

That, and the supposedly faster pace of D2 or any other RPG is almost entirely illusory,

Speaking of speed, I was thinking of a different kind of speed and pacing. Personally, I prefer D1's method of clvl based access, vs D2 waypoint system. After I hit a certain clvl in D1, I could go anywhere I want.

In D2, it can be mindnumbingly slow if it's in SP. (IMO, Khalim's quest.) Or, fosters waypoint rushing which isn't bad in itself, but combine that with what you generally encounter in public b.net. Let's just say sometimes I feel like there's a bunch of Kevin Federlines running amok in b.net.

[Occhidiangela]

The announcement brought this Hound out of the kennel as well. (Hi Occhi!)

Won't have a chance to see all the multimedia stuff until tonight. Looks promising, though.

-- CH

Hound! Great to see you delurk.:) Eddy FOS lives on as the finest group leader ever.

HC: a must.

I have a few chars in HC ladder at the moment, using Howl as a primary skill for my Barb (due to what I learned in Low Rent Legion raids) and using Bash and Berserk as killing skills. I really enjoy getting the little annoying critters out of the way so I can smack the bosses and champs. Slightly similar in theme to Mongo Jerry's brilliant Necro build that killed very few of the little critters and focused on the bosses, back in 1.10 or 1.11 beta days.

Simple smash up fun, and Howl is a fine crowd control skill, particularly is one has a rogue or Holy Freeze merc.

Occhi

[Xbizkitl]

For those who don't agree with the current artistic direction of Diablo III, and the Warcraft-ization of Blizzard's various IPs, here is a petition to sign that hopefully alerts them of our concerns (~2000 signatures thus far).

In fact, through many various Diablo fansites I've discovered there's a fierce discussion going on about that direction, so it's not just "whining" or "nitpicking". These graphics are beautiful and interesting, but simply do not fit the Diablo universe. From what I've seen, "casual" fans of the series are mostly ambivalent, and "hardcore" fans are more sharply divided.

Myself, I rather enjoyed the fact that Diablo is one of the few RPGs you could that was less "faerie" and more "horror", and I'm determined to help keep it that way.