August News/Discussion

[Artega]

Hi,
And I'm 100% in agreement. But, if you then proceed to corpse camp that *player* for the next hour, you've gone beyond just role playing a bastard.

-Pete

And that's why there are PvE servers:)

[Taelas]

What if you wanted to roleplay your high-level character, by all means a hero of his people his faction, as being a brave frontiersman, helping expand your faction's influence in a particular zone? Would you simply see the Alliance scum wandering around - possibly doing the same thing as you, or scouting for those who will - and just go "Hmm..." and be on your way? Nah, you'd kill them and enjoy the glory of killing your most hated enemies.

That's nothing but an excuse. "Well, I was only being a rotten asshole because my CHARACTER is a rotten asshole! Nothing personal!"

Yeah, well, don't roleplay a rotten asshole in the first place.

[Icebird]

I've dabbled with a character on a PVP realm a while back. Mirage Flats in Thousand Needles was probably the most fun because players were usually the same level (30-31 or so) and usually questing alone (so it felt like a fair fight if you got into one). I can enjoy world PVP, but I'm quite happy doing most of my play on PVE realms.

I'm guardedly optimistic that Lake Wintergrasp might be able to provide a satisfying world PVP experience for care bears such as myself in a way that Halaa and the Outlands PVP objectives failed to do. In my mind I picture it as a Quel'Danas of PVP - there are daily quests to make you go there, with objectives that will lead towards PVP conflict.

Apparently Warhammer Online gets around the "high level characters ganking low level characters" issue by turning the high level characters into chickens... defenseless, easy to kill chickens... (WoW seems to rely on social measures to deter gankers - the oppressed lowbie will send out a call for help, and the forces of righteousness will descend to smite the aggressors).

Chris

[Artega]

That's nothing but an excuse. "Well, I was only being a rotten asshole because my CHARACTER is a rotten asshole! Nothing personal!"

Yeah, well, don't roleplay a rotten asshole in the first place.

Who are you to tell people how to play and how not to play? It's their money; they should be allowed to play how they wish.

[Mirajj]

Who are you to tell people how to play and how not to play? It's their money; they should be allowed to play how they wish.

There's always been something about this "it's my money I'll do what I want" argument that's struck me. Just because someone pays for something, that does not entitle them to act like a total jerk. We all pay for the streets we walk on, but someone walking down it treating everyone they see like a jerk is going to get himself into trouble in a hurry.

Or...we all pay to go to a hockey game, but if someone starts acting like a jerk, security gives them the boot pretty quick.

Just because you are paying money, doesn't mean you get to ignore societal niceties.

[Artega]

There's always been something about this "it's my money I'll do what I want" argument that's struck me. Just because someone pays for something, that does not entitle them to act like a total jerk. We all pay for the streets we walk on, but someone walking down it treating everyone they see like a jerk is going to get himself into trouble in a hurry.

Or...we all pay to go to a hockey game, but if someone starts acting like a jerk, security gives them the boot pretty quick.

Just because you are paying money, doesn't mean you get to ignore societal niceties.

Unless it's stated in the rules, it's completely fine - if you don't like the way someone's acting, either ignore them or find somewhere else to be.

In terms of ganking, you have the option of a PvE server or a PvP server (in both Original and Roleplaying flavors.) If you choose a PvP server, regardless of whether or not you knew the distinctions, you have absolutely no right to complain about anything enemy players do to you. Unless you believe your $15 is worth more than theirs:P

For what it's worth, I (eventually) give people the option of just leaving instead of forcing them to spirit rez.

[Jester]

You're free to your opinions, but I don't think that ganking is a necessarily immature way to play.

Funny, everyone else seems to.

-Jester

[Taelas]

Who are you to tell people how to play and how not to play? It's their money; they should be allowed to play how they wish.

I didn't tell you how to play. I said that claiming it's appropriate for your character to act in certain manner is nothing but an excuse, as you can easily roleplay your character in a different manner. You are still responsible for your actions.

[Bob the Beholder]

Or...we all pay to go to a hockey game, but if someone starts acting like a jerk, security gives them the boot pretty quick.

Or we all pay to go to a hockey game, and there's one side of the rink with a big "You are allowed to be a jerk here!" sign, and a sign on the other side that says, "You are not allowed to be a jerk here!"

And then somebody goes and sits down on the jerk side and complains when somebody is a jerk.

I understand your point. I, personally, draw the line at extended camping (unless of course I have some other reason to be on a corpse--such as that's where my quest spawns are; or if it's a vengeance camp: the lowbies love it when you camp the guy who was camping them). But whether it's assholish or not, there are no rules being broken, and the 'security' (GMs) won't lift a finger for it.

[Mirajj]

Aug 12 News
~~~

The new Recruit-A-Friend feature is really kicking up some flurries of feeling. You hear about folks going from level 30 to 59 in a minute, as well as a lot of other things. Seems like it's easier than ever to get to 60, but is that better? If the folks using this system really are folks who haven't played before, is one really doing them any favors by blasting their first toon up to 60 in a matter of a few days?

There are some neat Engineering goodies posted about the web. It looks like there will finally be Eng. things that can be made and applied to existing items, along the lines of enchants. This could give Engineering a much needed boost.

Zeida of Tichonderous posts a pretty amusing list of the folks you don't want in your raiding guild. Looking over the list though, it's pretty easy folks to fall into these categories, and....you can't raid by yourself.

Sadly, as quickly as it was in, Potion Sickness is gone. It's a shame, and I hope that it comes back. I realize that it'd be quite hard to rebalance the current encounters around Potion Sickness (if Blizz would even bother doing it in the first place) but I liked the idea of encounters balanced around one potion, and having to choose that potion carefully (not to mention the farming time it would slice out of the game)

[Taelas]

The entire "PvP servers are for jerks" line of thinking annoys me to no end. It's only that way because Blizzard has yet to implement a serious deterrent for being a jerk.

I play on RP-servers, and I feel it's more immersive to be able to attack the opposing side whenever it's possible. I wanted to roll on an RP-PvP server when the game first came out, but there were none.

When they came, I rolled on one, but soon abandoned the toon -- because it was nothing like what I wanted from a PvP server. I tried again later, but obviously, nothing had changed.

[Artega]

Funny, everyone else seems to.

-Jester

Everyone here, yes, but you have to remember that the Lounge is a relatively small community of gamers, and is a PG-13 one at that. There's nothing wrong with this, but you gotta remember that there's more to WoW (and other games) than just what's here at the Lounge.

The entire "PvP servers are for jerks" line of thinking annoys me to no end. It's only that way because Blizzard has yet to implement a serious deterrent for being a jerk.

I really don't know what to tell you man. It's like you're thinking that people that gank need to attend Gankers Anonymous meetings and go through a twelve-step program or something. Get off the high horse, maybe.

Sadly, as quickly as it was in, Potion Sickness is gone. It's a shame, and I hope that it comes back. I realize that it'd be quite hard to rebalance the current encounters around Potion Sickness (if Blizz would even bother doing it in the first place) but I liked the idea of encounters balanced around one potion, and having to choose that potion carefully (not to mention the farming time it would slice out of the game)

Sad to hear about this. I was looking forward to potion use being more strategic than chain-chugging. Guess Blizzard was too lazy to do it, after all.

[Taelas]

I really don't know what to tell you man. It's like you're thinking that people that gank need to attend Gankers Anonymous meetings and go through a twelve-step program or something. Get off the high horse, maybe.

Ganking is not in any way, shape or form a positive influence on the game.

As for 'high horse'... I'm not the one who has to steamroll people who can't fight back to get his rocks off.:rolleyes:

Just for the sake of clarification, Wikipedia has a pretty good definition of ganking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganking

[Artega]

Ganking is not in any way, shape or form a positive influence on the game.

As for 'high horse'... I'm not the one who has to steamroll people who can't fight back to get his rocks off.:rolleyes:

Just for the sake of clarification, Wikipedia has a pretty good definition of ganking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganking

And that definition is wrong, because I've countered ganking attempts many, many times over the times I've level and been caught farming. Nothing is quite as amusing as starting the fight at 30% and ending it with their corpse at your feet:P

And, again, whether or not you consider it a positive influence does not matter one iota - Blizzard has not, and very likely will not add anything into the game or rules that will discourage ganking. Personally, I find world PvP (read: ganking) very fun, and it's the primary reason I play. If Blizzard instated a rule that meant I could no longer PvP on a PvP server (well, even moreso than it already is with freaking flying mounts), I probably wouldn't play very much anymore, and neither would many people I know.

And, again, get off your high horse. I'm going out of my way to avoid attacking people who don't share my views - which, generally, is the majority of the Lounge's WoW group - and I don't think it's very fair for you to act better or somehow superior to those of us who enjoy full on world PvP.

[Tal]

And, again, get off your high horse. I'm going out of my way to avoid attacking people who don't share my views - which, generally, is the majority of the Lounge's WoW group - and I don't think it's very fair for you to act better or somehow superior to those of us who enjoy full on world PvP.

Artega has a very valid point here folks. Lets keep the discussion civil and on point. I am very close to splitting these topics off into its own thread and locking the mess.

[Mirajj]

And, again, get off your high horse. I'm going out of my way to avoid attacking people who don't share my views - which, generally, is the majority of the Lounge's WoW group - and I don't think it's very fair for you to act better or somehow superior to those of us who enjoy full on world PvP.

I think that the problems here lie in definition. I have no problem with world pvp. I've attacked Crossroads, and defended Southshore myself a number of times. I have chased a gnome 3/4 of the way across HFP because he attacked me while I was almost dead from a mob. Fun times. Even level times.

I think that is the key, though. Most folks see world pvp and think of the lvl 70 who has nothing better to do with their time than prey on and camp a lvl 30. It's very frusterating for us to imagine it, and there is NOTHING the lvl 30 can do besides call out for help which may or may not arrive, or log to a different toon.

From what I see and feel, most of the Lounge has no problem with the first definition of world pvp. The problem comes with the definition of ganking, which is looked on (rightly or wrongly) as being a jerk for being a jerks sake, because there is no mechanic in the game expressly forbidding it.

Now, because there is no mechanic to prevent it (Though I am amused by WAR's "chicken" idea) it is not, per se, wrong. But a lot of folks in the Lounge (and I include myself in this number) have difficulty understanding how ruining someone else's gametime (and that's what low level ganking is, really, whether they expect it or not being on a pvp server) can be deemed 'fun and enjoyable'.

I can appreciate your determination in sticking to your convictions on this, but I do feel that you will never have anything but an uphill road convincing the majority of the Lurkers that this is a "fun and great" way to spend their time.

[Taelas]

From what I see and feel, most of the Lounge has no problem with the first definition of world pvp. The problem comes with the definition of ganking, which is looked on (rightly or wrongly) as being a jerk for being a jerks sake, because there is no mechanic in the game expressly forbidding it.

Now, because there is no mechanic to prevent it (Though I am amused by WAR's "chicken" idea) it is not, per se, wrong. But a lot of folks in the Lounge (and I include myself in this number) have difficulty understanding how ruining someone else's gametime (and that's what low level ganking is, really, whether they expect it or not being on a pvp server) can be deemed 'fun and enjoyable'.

My view summed up in a much more eloquent (and non-aggressive) way than I could do myself.

For what it's worth, I'll apologize for being hostile -- but there is absolutely nothing that can tick me off more than someone ruining someone else's time for 'fun', regardless of whether or not they "accepted" it by rolling on a PvP server. It ruins PvP servers for those of us who wants to experience fair world PvP without ganking, which cannot happen on a PvE server.

I consider it repugnant, and I will never come to consider it any other way.

[vor_lord]

Artega has a very valid point here folks. Lets keep the discussion civil and on point. I am very close to splitting these topics off into its own thread and locking the mess.

I rarely participate in threads of this nature, but as a fairly longtime Lurker, I have to express my opinion that this thread needed some moderation guidance a while ago. However, when the moderators get involved and hostile (yes Mav you know I'm talking to you my friend:)it is time to cool off.

Artega is in the minority certainly. But he's within the rules as Blizzard has set them up. Whether or not he's pushing some particular Lurker hot buttons (everyone who played hardcore Diablo, right?) or not I don't think he is the one out of line in tone in this thread.

[swirly]

But a lot of folks in the Lounge (and I include myself in this number) have difficulty understanding how ruining someone else's gametime (and that's what low level ganking is, really, whether they expect it or not being on a pvp server) can be deemed 'fun and enjoyable'.

I think the root of the problem may be right here in the "ruining someone else's gametime" bit. I play on a PvE server and while I have one char for BG/arena, I otherwise avoid PvP. That being said, if I were to start on a PvP server I would not only expect to be killed by high level characters sometimes, but I would enjoy the challenge of trying to evade them. It would not only be accepted as part of a PvP server, but it would be why I chose one. So coming from this view the high level player wouldn't be ruining my gametime, but in fact would be enhancing it. Now I wouldn't want this to happen constantly so that I can't level at all, but my understanding is that it isn't something that happens everytime you go out in the world. A PvP world where you see a skull player and know you are safe defeats the purpose of it being a PvP world to me. So not only would I be expecting what you call ganking, but I would be wanting it to happen to add to the enjoyment of the PvP world that I signed up for.

Now is this the correct way to view things? There isn't really a way to tell since everybody has different expectations and wants. It certainly would be my view of a PvP server though and Blizzard seems to want to enable people who share this view to be able to experience it. So I am unwilling to say that a high level killing low levels is ruining someone else's gametime since in my view it is adding to someone else's gametime.

[Artega]

My view summed up in a much more eloquent (and non-aggressive) way than I could do myself.

For what it's worth, I'll apologize for being hostile -- but there is absolutely nothing that can tick me off more than someone ruining someone else's time for 'fun', regardless of whether or not they "accepted" it by rolling on a PvP server. It ruins PvP servers for those of us who wants to experience fair world PvP without ganking, which cannot happen on a PvE server.

I consider it repugnant, and I will never come to consider it any other way.

Fair world PvP is more or less a myth:)

I don't know why people would spend time ganking and camping people significantly lower level than them; the handful of times I did it, it was either part of a server-wide world PvP thing (back in the day prior to the honor system, two full raid groups of Horde comprised of three different guilds took over Stranglethorn Vale for three hours) or a vengeance camp. I thoroughly enjoy ganking in terms of people within about five levels of me, and it's downright hilarious when someone gets ganked by me, gets their main, and then consequently has their main camped by my alt (who is currently lvl 63) and has to call for help. But going out of my way to camp lvl 30s without prior provocation? Sounds boring to me, unless it's somwhere like Nessy's where I'd be trying to provoke a big fight.