August News/Discussion

[--Pete]

Hi,

Then they should be on PvE servers where it's an option and not a requirement.

Though it's not like PvP servers are even PvP servers anymore with the way people can just chicken out and fly away.

Maybe you're playing the wrong damned game. If *all* you want to do is fight, then why play a ROLE PLAYING game in the first place? Get yourself a first person shooter and go play with the other hypertestosteroned kiddies who fear for the loss of their e-peen. Leave the balanced, mature people with imagination the hell alone.

--Pete

[Chesspiece_face]

Hi,
Maybe you're playing the wrong damned game. If *all* you want to do is fight, then why play a ROLE PLAYING game in the first place? Get yourself a first person shooter and go play with the other hypertestosteroned kiddies who fear for the loss of their e-peen. Leave the balanced, mature people with imagination the hell alone.

--Pete

I'm not sure if i'd put it that harshly, but eventually occam's razor needs to be applied. Is it more likely that every other player is just PvPing wrong, or is it more likely that hardcore PvPers are just playing the wrong game?

[Bob the Beholder]

The server says PvP on it, the game is well known for its PvP, the population of PvPers certainly exists.

If this is the wrong game for PvPers then maybe somebody needs to inform Blizzard.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The server says PvP on it, the game is well known for its PvP, the population of PvPers certainly exists.

If this is the wrong game for PvPers then maybe somebody needs to inform Blizzard.

Not too good at reading comprehension, are you?

To reiterate: PvP as part of the overall RP experience is good. PvP as all that you get out of the game is stupid. There is so much more to the game for those with the wit to find it. If all you want is Quake, then go play Quake.

Oh, and Blizzard put in all that non-PvP content. And you can't level from PvP. Maybe that should send a message.

--Pete

[Bob the Beholder]

Hi,
Not too good at reading comprehension, are you?

To reiterate: PvP as part of the overall RP experience is good. PvP as all that you get out of the game is stupid. There is so much more to the game for those with the wit to find it. If all you want is Quake, then go play Quake.

Oh, and Blizzard put in all that non-PvP content. And you can't level from PvP. Maybe that should send a message.

--Pete

*shrug* Who said anything about wanting nothing to do in-game but killing people? And what, exactly, makes people who want to do nothing but PvE balanced and mature? I, personally, consider myself a PvPer. But all the same, I've raided (mostly pre-BC, which is when I played the most) hundreds of times, and participated in a number of first major boss kills with my guild.

I would have to say Artega is likely to be the same. And so would the majority of people who refer to themselves as PvPers.

Nothing about going out and doing some ganking stops people from enjoying other aspects of the game on occasion. And nothing about that is under discussion. Even Artega's original comments were about doing world PvP while levelling to 80.

The whole problem that Artega was complaining about was that PvP servers used to be full of PvP out in the world, at random, and now that's harder to find. And a lot of us who rolled on PvP servers back when the game was new did so and continued to play there because we enjoyed that. And it was certainly widespread when WoW was new--levelling on a PvP server was all about annihilating your enemies hard enough to give yourself the breathing room to level. And it was great fun for me, and a lot of others. And just because it may not have been great fun for you, does not mean that the people who liked it and wish it would happen more often are stupid, testosterone-filled 11 year olds.

And, yes, Blizzard did put in all of that non-PvP content. They also put in all of the PvP content. And continue to put more in.

Also, I would like to ask you to stop with the condescending comments. Nobody here is insulting you, and disagreeing with you does not make us all retarded.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Also, I would like to ask you to stop with the condescending comments. Nobody here is insulting you, and disagreeing with you does not make us all retarded.

You are right. I make a statement about a certain attitude. You claim not to have that attitude and that my statement offends you. So, it both doesn't apply to you and does apply to you? Disagreeing with me does not makes you retarded.

As for PvP, I built a character on a RP-PvP server in the hopes of finding a better game. I found the same crap that I'd found in the PvE non-RP servers with the addition of ganking.

--Pete

[Taelas]

As for PvP, I built a character on a RP-PvP server in the hopes of finding a better game. I found the same crap that I'd found in the PvE non-RP servers with the addition of ganking.

--Pete

I had the exact same experience, sigh.

I'm sincerely hoping all PvPers who play WoW only to PvP move to those tournement servers I keep hearing about. At least that'll keep them out of our hair.

[Bob the Beholder]

Hi,
You are right. I make a statement about a certain attitude. You claim not to have that attitude and that my statement offends you. So, it both doesn't apply to you and does apply to you? Disagreeing with me does not makes you retarded.

--Pete

No, see, what's happening here is, you make a statement accusing someone whose views I generally share of having a certain attitude. And I am offended because you did it in a very inflammatory way. Forgive me if some modicum of civility is something I've come to expect around here.

[Artega]

Hi,
Maybe you're playing the wrong damned game. If *all* you want to do is fight, then why play a ROLE PLAYING game in the first place? Get yourself a first person shooter and go play with the other hypertestosteroned kiddies who fear for the loss of their e-peen. Leave the balanced, mature people with imagination the hell alone.

--Pete

I'm sorry, but I did not and do not play World of Warcraft to RP as some silly little elf so I can cyber with another silly little elf in the Deeprun Tram.

I played it and play it because I want to be an Orc killing Humans, Dwarves, and other Alliance scum. I have played Orc since the first Warcraft game, and I will continue to do so if there are other Warcraft games after this one.

Know why I rolled on a PvP server? To kill Alliance scum. Is that not roleplaying enough for you? Well then I guess it's a good thing that I'm not on a server that requires it, huh?

Yeah, there's more than just PvP to WoW - PvE can be a fun diversion, you get to meet some really cool people and some total jerks, and some of the questlines have a pretty good plot to them. But I play for the PvP, just like you apparently play for the roleplaying opportunities.

I do play first-person shooters extensively, and I'm afraid that the majority of the playerbase for the ones I play are largely over 21 (myself included) and are probably more mature than you'd like to stereotype us as.

levelling on a PvP server was all about annihilating your enemies hard enough to give yourself the breathing room to level.

This sums it up for my first toon to 60, as well as my second. Because those toons were both made before the advent of the honor system, the only reason to PvP was for the sheer fun of it. I still remember those times as the most fun in WoW, though current-day WoW is still enjoyable enough to keep me playing six nights out of seven.

I had the exact same experience, sigh.

I'm sincerely hoping all PvPers who play WoW only to PvP move to those tournement servers I keep hearing about. At least that'll keep them out of our hair.

Why in the world would you roll on a PvP server and expect people wouldn't gank you? Even moreso on an RP server, where players have the added incentive of being able to roleplay hating your race or faction so much that they'd do anything kill them or die trying? You think that, because it's an RP server, orcs and humans are suddenly gonna get over their differences, inherent distrust, and outright hate of each other and make love instead of war?

What about blood elves, who were discriminated against by the humans and are distant cousins of the night elves? You think they're gonna give some random human the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their intentions?

What about the the Silverwing elves and the Warsong orcs in Warsong Gulch (ignore the flags, please)? The Defilers and League of Arathor in Arathi Basin? The Stormpike dwarves invading the Frostwolf Clan's territory in Alterac Valley?

If anything, you're more likely to be ganked and camped on an RP-PvP server than a regular one.

[NiteFox]

If anything, you're more likely to be ganked and camped on an RP-PvP server than a regular one.

That's... A pretty good point actually. I've only ever played on RPPvP servers (Horde on Ravenholdt, Alliance on Scarshield Legion before it got impossibly laggy and Sporeggar afterwards) and though my main character is typically played very passively and non-aggressively (My other character, however, will take on pretty much anyone just for kicks), there's always the very real chance that the red name I see on the horizon will attack me without provocation. And <strike>probably</strike> likely have a rogue or druid hidden nearby to "help out" if it looks like I'm getting the upper hand.

Now, I've talked to people on regular PvP servers and they're always the ones who say that world PvP is dead, that they've levelled a whole bunch of characters from 1-70 without getting ganked once, and how levelling on a PvP server isn't any harder than on a PvE server and can I have that PvE->PvP transfer please?

Poppycock*.

My mage alt did some time in Hillsbrad Foothills, and there always seemed to be a few bored level 70s running around willing to one-shot anyone. Heck, during one fairly intensive play session I decided to keep count of times I was ganked by a skull-levelled player while trying to collect my requisite thirty skulls and work my way up the Battle of Hillsbrad questline. I was killed thirteen times by players, a further six times by mobs through the interference of players, and managed to escape death through some lucky Blinking another three times. And I don't know if you Alliance types know this, but the corpse run from Tarren Mill to Hillsbrad is long. I could have easily made an extra level on top of my session had I managed to stay alive and not waste so much time corpse running.

And you can't say that Honor had anything to do with this. Warlocks in full Merciless Gladiator's aren't getting anything from Skillcoiling a level 27 Mage save for cheap thrills. Same for the Hunter running around Grom'gol attacking anyone who stepped out in the short time my Druid was there (I tend to avoid STV, but the Mirage Raceway quests require a fairly extended stay there.). Seriously, if this balderdash** about PvP servers being as easy to level on as PvE, then it certainly doesn't seem to apply for RPPvP.

On the other hand, I have noticed a pretty disturbing trend. Nobody wants to PvP in a situation that nobody (I could generalise and just say "the Alliance", but that's only because I haven't witnessed the Horde do this, but I'm also one to admit that a tree falling in the forest does make a sound even when I'm not there) is willing to do any world PvP if there's the possibility of risk. I've seen "world PvP" guilds on my server crow about glorious victories when all they did was steamroll The Crossroads for an hour straight without any real opposition and splitting the very moment any organised resistance turns up. The Crossroads isn't a hard target, Tarren Mill isn't particularly well-defended, same for Southshore and Astranaar (Though in the last case, sometimes it is better to just slaughter your way through the guards, since at level 70 it's a quicker route than walking around it).

Nobody is going for the outposts guarded with level 65 elites, even though they can be killed fairly easily if you're in a party. It's always the soft targets, nothing glorious or even worth discussing on your realm's forum.

I saw a twenty-strong group from an Alliance guild massing at Ratchet one night while passing through on my Druid. A few minutes later Barrens defence was filled with a steady stream of "The Crossroads is under attack!". Well done, guys. Build up a huge force to corpse-camp questgivers in an outpost that most folks can wipe off the map in a group of three. Why not use that numerical advantage to, say, try and at least kill a sizable portion of Orgrimmar or Thunder Bluff? And why claim you're doing world PvP when, as it turned out, you run within half an hour of the first assault because a rival Horde guild decided to intervene?

Isle of Quel'danas is another interesting example. In the first phase it was an absolutely glorious example of world PvP done right. We had the major guilds of both sides racing for mutually-agreed destruction, the vast majority of other players joining in, and the Shattered Sun Peacekeepers basically doing all they could to keep the armor repairers in business. There were a few of us not getting involved, just delighting in the carnage, and walking through the outpost was almost exactly like walking through a bar brawl. Pity nobody could swing from the chandeliers. Nowadays, it's almost deathly quiet now the phases have progressed, and about the only PvP that goes on is the usual camping of the Greengill Coast chokepoint or on the boats up north. Oh, and the usual mages firing from beyond the range of the guards hoping that you've kept your pet on defensive. They're always fun.

Generally, on my server, levelling up is hard. It's because nobody actually wants the challenge of doing anything "risky" and would rather sate their pretences of "roleplaying" a hero of their faction by killing low-levelled players and outposts. Unfortunately, while there's plenty of incentive to go after players of your own level in the form of Honor, this state of affairs is likely to continue until Blizzard (re)introduces a system to dissuade players from just repeatedly slaughtering weaker players and preventing their progress.

-----------------------
* Blame my word of the day calender.
** Next Friday's word.

[Quark]

and are probably more mature than you'd like to stereotype us as.

I think you've demonstrated over the history of this board that this is not, in fact, true.

Now, I've talked to people on regular PvP servers and they're always the ones who say that world PvP is dead, that they've levelled a whole bunch of characters from 1-70 without getting ganked once, and how levelling on a PvP server isn't any harder than on a PvE server and can I have that PvE->PvP transfer please?

As of level 60, here's the count: 6. And 3 of those were because I insisted on questing in STV despite the risks. The fact is, you've got people rolling on PvP servers for non-PvP purposes. That, in and of itself, demonstrates a failure on Blizzard's part.

[Taelas]

Why in the world would you roll on a PvP server and expect people wouldn't gank you? Even moreso on an RP server, where players have the added incentive of being able to roleplay hating your race or faction so much that they'd do anything kill them or die trying? You think that, because it's an RP server, orcs and humans are suddenly gonna get over their differences, inherent distrust, and outright hate of each other and make love instead of war?

What about blood elves, who were discriminated against by the humans and are distant cousins of the night elves? You think they're gonna give some random human the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their intentions?

What about the the Silverwing elves and the Warsong orcs in Warsong Gulch (ignore the flags, please)? The Defilers and League of Arathor in Arathi Basin? The Stormpike dwarves invading the Frostwolf Clan's territory in Alterac Valley?

If anything, you're more likely to be ganked and camped on an RP-PvP server than a regular one.

:rolleyes:

You can roleplay hate without adding ganking. You can have PvP without ganking. Your entire 'argument', if it can be called that, falls flat on its face.

By 'ganking', I am referring to skull level players steamrolling others who are trying to level up.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The fact is, you've got people rolling on PvP servers for non-PvP purposes. That, in and of itself, demonstrates a failure on Blizzard's part.

Yep. Eleven years ago, in CD, there were many discussions about PvP in RP games. Many ideas were put forward to actually integrate PvP into the game and not just have it be a ganker's paradise. Ideas such as experience point gain (and loss) for killing players above (or below) your level. Big penalties for killing the same player repeatedly within a short time. Quests that required raids into enemy territory and the killing of enemies in that territory. And many more which I've long since forgotten.

During the intervening years, Blizzard has implemented none of those ideas, and PvP in their games is still a tack on to please the wankers (the fundamental WoW equation: wankers = $13/month each). Blizzard has shown, repeatedly, that they are masters of making games fun, but not deep games. And to do PvP right is going to take depth.

--Pete

[Mavfin]

Forget I said anything.

[Bob the Beholder]

I've played on a PvP server since something like February '05. I've levelled 7 characters through at least the STV killzone, and do you know how many enemy players I've found whose purpose is only to ruin others' game time? And I don't mean people of equivalent level fighting, and I don't mean the random bored 70 who happens to dismount on his way to wherever he's going and lay down a quick gank, or even people who spend a bit of time every once in a while tearing up some lowbie town or harassing some quest hub. That's obviously not something most of you like around here, but it's avoidable, really not a big inconvenience if you've got practice gank-dodging, and, honestly, it's just par for the course, and if you have the right mindset for it it can both be a bit of fun and good practice for evading enemies, breaking line of sight, and properly using your abilities to foul up a stronger enemy (not always possible, of course, but you might be surprised how often it can be useful). I mean people who obviously take the majority of their enjoyment in-game from just logging in, ganking for an extended period, logging out, and repeating the exercise the next day.

That number would be two. A human rogue by the name of Aeonic who used to spend hours every day standing stealthed next to the flight master outside of Gadgetzan. And a gnome rogue named Xenocider, who, in just a staggering display of single-mindedness, had at one point spent several hours every day running circles around STV killing every red name he could find for over a year and a half.

Those people suck. But hey, the second one at least, I'm pretty sure was only there because he was a terrible player who couldn't kill anyone his own level, and as such, was barely up to the task of ganking. I had lots of fun messing with him.

And I suppose most of you would say that those first things I said that didn't count for a real 'ganker' or 'wanker who only enjoys ruining others' game experiences' are over the line anyway. In which case all I can really say to that is that you just won't have very much fun on a PvP server. And I'm sorry for that, because I like it quite a bit, and I wish you could share that.

[Bolty]

"People on PvP servers are 12-year-old wankers who enjoy ruining other people's game."
"People on PvE servers are carebear losers who can't handle any competition."

Could we stop with the generalizations?

-Bolty

[Artega]

:rolleyes:

You can roleplay hate without adding ganking. You can have PvP without ganking. Your entire 'argument', if it can be called that, falls flat on its face.

By 'ganking', I am referring to skull level players steamrolling others who are trying to level up.

What if you wanted to roleplay your high-level character, by all means a hero of his people his faction, as being a brave frontiersman, helping expand your faction's influence in a particular zone? Would you simply see the Alliance scum wandering around - possibly doing the same thing as you, or scouting for those who will - and just go "Hmm..." and be on your way? Nah, you'd kill them and enjoy the glory of killing your most hated enemies.

[Artega]

You're free to your opinions, but I don't think that ganking is a necessarily immature way to play.

[--Pete]

Hi,

What if you wanted to roleplay your high-level character, by all means a hero of his people his faction, as being a brave frontiersman, helping expand your faction's influence in a particular zone? Would you simply see the Alliance scum wandering around - possibly doing the same thing as you, or scouting for those who will - and just go "Hmm..." and be on your way? Nah, you'd kill them and enjoy the glory of killing your most hated enemies.

And I'm 100% in agreement. But, if you then proceed to corpse camp that *player* for the next hour, you've gone beyond just role playing a bastard.

-Pete

[Monkey]

On the other hand, I have noticed a pretty disturbing trend. Nobody wants to PvP in a situation that nobody (I could generalise and just say "the Alliance", but that's only because I haven't witnessed the Horde do this, but I'm also one to admit that a tree falling in the forest does make a sound even when I'm not there) is willing to do any world PvP if there's the possibility of risk.

This has always been true. I've been playing on pvp servers since WoW was released in Nov 04, so believe me, this is very very old.:)

So last year I flipped that concept on its head. I rolled my first Hunter and decided that to attack anything that was red. Because the old world is mostly empty, this didn't happen often. But when it did happen, I never paused to check the level: There was a very surprised +5 rogue that got kited all over Ashenvale to his death, and a party of 70s that must have laughed at my little viper sting before crushing me.

And then there are the much more entertaining abuses of power: A level 70 paladin I know was recently out leveling mining. Whenever he spotted a lowbie, he would chase them down, drop his fire festival statue, point at the lowbie and point at the statue. If the lowbie danced, he'd cheer for them, mount up and ride off. If the lowbie ran...