To those who have experiences from the war in Iraq

[[wcip]Angel]

Having just watched the finale of HBO's "Generation Kill", (and being thoroughly awed in the process), I was wondering, in terms of realism, how accurate this series is. Media (news outlets that is) - biased as it is - can't be trusted wholly, in my opinion. Call me a cynic, but I tend to pour mountains of salt onto all stories on recent events. Ironic, though, that I should fall for the guile of a mere television show.;)

For those of you who have some knowledge of what it's actually like over there, either through own experiences or that of friends and family; having seen the show, can you tell me something about the level of realism portrayed in "Generation Kill"? This isn't a thinly veiled attempt at starting a lackluster political debate, but rather a query into this particular depiction of marines stationed in Iraq.

I've done the Wikipedia-thing, but it was sorely lacking in information.

Much obliged!

- [wcip]Angel

[kandrathe]

Angel' date='Aug 26 2008, 03:02 PM' post='152700']Having just watched the finale of HBO's "Generation Kill", (and being thoroughly awed in the process), I was wondering, in terms of realism, how accurate this series is. Media (news outlets that is) - biased as it is - can't be trusted wholly, in my opinion. Call me a cynic, but I tend to pour mountains of salt onto all stories on recent events. Ironic, though, that I should fall for the guile of a mere television show.;)

For those of you who have some knowledge of what it's actually like over there, either through own experiences or that of friends and family; having seen the show, can you tell me something about the level of realism portrayed in "Generation Kill"? This isn't a thinly veiled attempt at starting a lackluster political debate, but rather a query into this particular depiction of marines stationed in Iraq.

I've done the Wikipedia-thing, but it was sorely lacking in information.

Much obliged!

- [wcip]Angel

It was a great series for entertainment value, just as was Apocalypse Now or Full Metal Jacket for Vietnam films.

I think they over did the leadership screw ups, of Lt. Col. Stephen 'Godfather' Ferrando. Every unit in the service knows their purpose and expertise, but this guy kept knowingly throwing his marines into suicidal engagements (no recon, against armor), and only due to luck did they not get ground into meat paste. I kept thinking over and over during the series, "this is a court martial offense". For example, when the ROE was lowered to "if it breathes kill it" -- which would never happen without someone being relieved. The discipline was too lax for an elite unit.

Some of the soldiers were caricatures, like Cpt. Dave 'Captain America' McGraw. He would have been a section 8, and flown back to HQ. Others were just too incompetent to even pass as marines. The other tendency of any war on film is that they show the action, but not the boredom. You caught the 15 minutes of a fire fight in Nasiriyah, but not the 48 hours driving to get there. Sure, they showed some of that, but in balance the reality was much more boring. They tended to accentuate the horror, remove the concern, and down play the benevolence.

[shoju]

I am not a vet, nor have any family recently been in the war. My best friend though, is a CH-53 Crew Chief who has been overseas to Africa for 2 deployments (14 months total) during his time in the Marines. He is now stateside, and he gave me his perspective on the show. Keep in mind he has not been to iraq nor afghanistan, and admitted that it could be more realistic than what he's seen.

To sum up his rant.... The show was terrible. It portrayed "the Core" as bloodthirsty, incompetent, screwballs. In all of his time in the core flying and otherwise, he said that no one would have led that way, that the one guy would have never made it through boot camp and combat training (the section 8 fellow). He felt that Full Metal Jacket was a better 'characterization' of what it's like than this.

While he never fought, he flew in and out of hot zones in the civil war ravaged areas of Africa providing relief supplies to some of the hardest hit areas.

[Zich]

I haven't seen the HBO series, but my brother served a tour in Iraq while in the Marine Reserves. He was a radio operator, and his unit was artillery, but over there served as a security detail. Given that they were reservists, and stationed in a US friendly portion of the country, its not surprising they didn't see a lot of faction.

The one incident they had though, his unit had a gunner hit by sniper fire their 2nd to last week of duty, while on a Humvee patrol. The shot got him in the stomach, which is a bad place to be hit. The medic in their unit managed to stitch him together enough to keep him from dieing on the spot, but he had alot of internal organ damage. The marines drove straight back to base, and his Humvee went right into the back of an already running C-130 and directly to a base in Germany for medical treatment. I think my bro said he was in a critical care unit within 4 hours of being hit. I am guessing not all situations allow that kind of care (front line battles and large scale attacks probably make things a little more hectic than single incidents), but in that case the issue was saving the injured soldier. They didn't waste time going for the sniper, or completing their patrol, they just did what they had to to save him.

My bro's tour was pretty recent though, just this past fall/spring, and he wasn't elite or front line. Also not seeing the show, I can't weigh in on it, I just thought I would at least share one sunshine & daisies story of the US properly caring for its troops.


My bro worked directly with the Iraqi forces in his time there though. I got some disturbing stories about the local police and government, but nothing of suicide missions or troops being used as fodder while he was there.

[Occhidiangela]

My bro worked directly with the Iraqi forces in his time there though. I got some disturbing stories about the local police and government, but nothing of suicide missions or troops being used as fodder while he was there.

My friend Johnny B worked with training the Iraqi Army for much of 2004. Odds are, the horror stories you heard were watered down.

No further comment on Hollywood and war.

Occhi

[Greyce]

I haven't seen the HBO series, but my brother served a tour in Iraq while in the Marine Reserves. He was a radio operator, and his unit was artillery, but over there served as a security detail. Given that they were reservists, and stationed in a US friendly portion of the country, its not surprising they didn't see a lot of faction.

The one incident they had though, his unit had a gunner hit by sniper fire their 2nd to last week of duty, while on a Humvee patrol. The shot got him in the stomach, which is a bad place to be hit. The medic in their unit managed to stitch him together enough to keep him from dieing on the spot, but he had alot of internal organ damage. The marines drove straight back to base, and his Humvee went right into the back of an already running C-130 and directly to a base in Germany for medical treatment. I think my bro said he was in a critical care unit within 4 hours of being hit. I am guessing not all situations allow that kind of care (front line battles and large scale attacks probably make things a little more hectic than single incidents), but in that case the issue was saving the injured soldier. They didn't waste time going for the sniper, or completing their patrol, they just did what they had to to save him.

My bro's tour was pretty recent though, just this past fall/spring, and he wasn't elite or front line. Also not seeing the show, I can't weigh in on it, I just thought I would at least share one sunshine & daisies story of the US properly caring for its troops.
My bro worked directly with the Iraqi forces in his time there though. I got some disturbing stories about the local police and government, but nothing of suicide missions or troops being used as fodder while he was there.

That story may have been a little exaggerated regarding the speed at which he was evacuated. I'm not entirely sure how the Navy's combat medical system is tiered, but it supposedly mirrors the Army one closely enough to make comparison.

Level III care (operating room, blood bank, pharmacy, X-ray) is provided by the combat support hospital in-theater. It's basically a modern incarnation of the famous MASH unit - tent hospital with select sections housed in ISO shelters. The major role of the CSH is to treat those who are lightly-enough wounded to return to duty; or stabilize the seriously hurt for evacuation. He may not have spent much time in a Level III facility but it's almost guaranteed he went through one. There are 2 CSH units in Iraq at any one time - one in Baghdad and one in the south. Afghanistan also has 1 CSH in-theater.

As a final note, the Air Force coordinates all casualty evacuations from the theater, and has the ability to refuse evac for patients who they don't feel are stable enough for the trip back to Europe. During training I've had to remind nurses (and surgeons, for that fact) that evacuating a patient is a considerable task in-and-of itself; not some silver-bullet to use on difficult patients. I'll refrain for mentioning the specifics of my last CSH unit-training exercise where I had to restrain myself from talking to a Doc (O-5).

Short version is, I'm glad your brother's buddy was treated expeditiously. The casualty evac system in-place in Iraq is truly an amazing piece of work, outside the imagination of someone who would have fought 50 years ago.

/68-W

P.S. Hey Occhi, good to see you're still around.

[kandrathe]

Having just watched the finale of HBO's "Generation Kill", (and being thoroughly awed in the process), I was wondering, in terms of realism, how accurate this series is. Media (news outlets that is) - biased as it is - can't be trusted wholly, in my opinion. Call me a cynic, but I tend to pour mountains of salt onto all stories on recent events. Ironic, though, that I should fall for the guile of a mere television show.;)

For those of you who have some knowledge of what it's actually like over there, either through own experiences or that of friends and family; having seen the show, can you tell me something about the level of realism portrayed in "Generation Kill"? This isn't a thinly veiled attempt at starting a lackluster political debate, but rather a query into this particular depiction of marines stationed in Iraq.

I've done the Wikipedia-thing, but it was sorely lacking in information.

Much obliged!

- [wcip]Angel

I looked up some reviews of the book.

Here is an interesting one;

I'm an embedded journalist, writing this review from Camp Fallujah where I just got done talking to Marines from 1st Recon, the unit profiled in this book. I'll admit, I found this book a gripping read at points but the thing I can't figure out is why every Marine I've spoken to at 1st Recon loathes this book and feels that it is a gross misrepresentation of their unit and everyone on the civilian side thinks this is the best book yet to emerge from the Iraq war. The question I keep coming back to with this book is, what loyalty do you have to your sources? Isn't the journalistic contract predicated on trying to be responsible to the story and your sources?

When I re-read this book I think there's some really great material in it--some classic American types, guys who love their guns more than their wives, some really exquisite profanity and moments of great humor--but I think Wright's grasp of the larger military/tactical piece of the story is really weak and his treatment of several characters in the book is very poor. Beyond the estimable platoon commander Lieutenant Fick, virtually every officer in the book is depicted as a buffoon or a self-deluded idiot. It doesn't appear as if Wright did even the most rudimentary follow-up with anyone from the unit to try to balance his story (A strange thing because I happen to know that Wright lives less than two hour's drive from 1st Recon's stateside base, Camp Pendleton). Unfortunately, I think Wright fell victim to the same rush-to-print impulse that has ruined most of the books written about the war so far.

In sum, I find Wright's book and the prospect of it being adapted into an HBO miniseries really suspicious. I think this book confirms what a lot of Americans want to believe about the military and Marines in particular--that they're Neanderthals, high-school dropouts, depraved anger management cases sent to do the nation's dirty work. (One sergeant from 1st Recon told me, "The book is like 'Marines Gone Wild,'") Is GENERATION KILL a fair profile? Is it responsible reportage? No and no.

I raise the issue of journalistic responsibility here because Wright's hatchet job on 1st Recon has had made it harder for reporters to embed with certain Marine units. He's doubled the suspicions of already skeptical soldiers and Marines and put another brick in the wall that separates the media from the military, a wall that prevents true and accurate reporting about this war.

One last thing: When I first checked in to 1st Recon, I introduced myself to Charlie Company's operations chief, a Master Sergeant with almost twenty years in the Corps. When I told him I was a writer he stiffened up and said, "A writer? Ugh...I hate you guys." Later, when I asked around the battalion to try to figure out what was wrong with the Master Sergeant, an officer in his company gave me just two words: "Generation Kill."

Other interesting video I found was this, the real life "Godfather" giving his pre-invasion kick off speech. Lt. Nathanial (now retired Captain) Fick speaks at the DPC Hearing. He also has a book (promo), One Bullet Away: The Making of a Marine Officer (Hardcover). It might be a good second opinion from a source seeing the same footage (in real life).

[Occhidiangela]

P.S. Hey Occhi, good to see you're still around.

Good to be seen. :D I worked quite a bit with USAF medevac and casevac units when I was assigned over there. A good bunch. One of the missions we coordinated was an evac of an Afghani Girl, a bit east of Herat, who had, for reasons not clear, swallowed a small pouch of processed opium.

Hearts and minds, she lived, her uncle was insanely grateful. My Marine friends in the 22d MEU were a bit jaded, and suggested to me that he'd had her swallow it to avoid some sort of law enforcement, anti drug whatever.

Don't know, but I do know the Special Forces medic and the Air Force Combat Rescue lads did a great job, that an other occasions.

Occhi

[TaMeOlta]

<--- 439th AES MedEvac for near 12 years , USAFRES , past couple years as Radio Operator , before that was their Radio maintenance guy , then add another 10 years active duty :D . Yeah , lots of stories that aren't mine to tell ;) .

I just hope that anyone you know , friends , relatives , neighbors , all come back safe -n- sound .